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tongue dx - Yang xu

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Jason,

 

I'm not sure that the particular pattern of

disharmony that you mention is discussed in

an article by Prof. Yan Shi Lin of Chengdu

University of TCM. But you can find it in

Vol 2. No. 2 of CAOM on page 102. In this

piece, Prof. Yan talks about ambiguities

in diagnosis arising from " true " and " false "

patterns of heat and cold.

 

You might find it useful.

 

Ken

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Jason,

 

Vacuous yang floats upward when it loses its root in its lower source,

i.e. the lower burner. It does not always or necessarily sink

downward. However, you're right, in real life, this tendency of yang

to float upward is mostly seen in the presence of some sort of

complicating heat: yang hyperactivity, vacuity heat, depressive heat,

damp heat, or phlegm heat. In that case, the complicating heat stirs

ministerial fire and helps promote the upward floating of yang. So, in

theory, vacuous yang may float upward all by itself, but, in practice,

my experience is that this occurs primarily in the presence of some

complicating heat evils. According to Li Dong-yuan, spleen vacuity

allows ministerial fire to become hyperactive and counterflow upward

more easily. Conversely, upwardly counterflowing ministerial fire

damages the spleen qi.

 

Bob

 

, " " <@o...> wrote:

> > I see acute cold-damp and cold-damp bi syndrome, but rarely, if

ever,

> > see chronic cold damp. Even my yang xu patients often present

with

> > dampheat pathogens. I guess this comes full circle to Jason's

> > question. If the yang is xu, then damp and cold may accumulate

> > internally. over time, both these pathogens typically transform

to

> > heat.

> >

>

>

>

> Bob, and others,

>

> Actually this damp-phlegm concept had little relevance to my

> question, I don't know how that got started...? maybe my question

was

> misunderstood. D-P can obviously turn to heat and produce 'heat

signs'

> in a yang xu patient.. what I was wondering about was (what I think

Bob

> was saying) that one may have yang xu , and from this have FLOATING

> yang, creating heat signs(red tongue & face, floating pulse(?)) -

Heat

> above and cold below. I was wondering what the pathomechanism for

this

> floating yang would be. I can not think of one. In such a situation

I

> would view it as a mixed yin and yang xu (which is common with

chronic

> yang xu) and the yin xu causing the heat... therefore I would treat

> both.

> Heat rising due to Qi xu makes sense - the pathomechanism is

> clear, but why would yang rise if it is xu. Of course yang can

separate

> from yin and produce such signs in critical conditions - false heat,

but

> in chronic or non-critical problems, why would this occur? Is there

a

> source on such a phenomenon?

> Bob Flaws mentions that looking at the original sighting for

jin

> gui shen qi wan (in the jin gui) demonstrates such symptoms come

from

> yang xu. This is problematic for 2 reasons : 1) this rx also treats

the

> yin, 2) I cannot find such s/s in the original text, could someone

point

> me in the proper place?

> Bensky in discussing the substitution of rou gui for gui zhi

in

> JGSQW states: " the use of this modification is appropriate in

treating

> waning fire at the gate of vitality with deficient yang floating

upward

> characterized by a flushed face, wheezing, severe sweating, weakness

and

> cold of the lower extremities, and a deficient, rootless pulse.

This

> condition should be distinguished from the flushed face and kidney

> symptoms associated with kidney yin insufficiency... " so... is this

> deficient yang floating upwards a false heat? If so, is it a

critical

> condition as Wiseman and Ellis defines false heat as. If it is not a

> critical condition /false heat then what is the pathomechanism and I

> would imagine that the tongue is pale, not red. I always felt that

the

> tongue was pretty decisive in showing the true temperature... this

red

> tongue is puzzling...

> IS Bensky's above description one of chronic or acute nature?

- I

> get the impression that it is acute therefore false heat/

semi-critical

> - Deng also presents a similar description of false heat, which

further

> supports the idea that the above is acute? Then why would one

prescribe

> JQSQW if it is acute...

> IS any of this more clear?

>

> -

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what I was wondering about was (what I think Bobwas saying) that one may have yang xu , and from this have FLOATINGyang, creating heat signs(red tongue & face, floating pulse(?)) - Heatabove and cold below.

>>>>I was always told Mingmen loosing its dwelling due to yang deficiency for which ru gui is given

Alon

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If so, is it a criticalcondition as Wiseman and Ellis defines false heat as.

>>>I have seen this "diagnosed" in hospital in china in patients that are not critical, especially with asthma. It was characterized as false heat because there were many s/s of heat and the patients were treating by warming kidneys. I remember asking if this was secondary or transormative heat and was told no. Usually the pulse was given as the reason. Although at times I wandered if the treatment was empirical and diagnosis secondary when patient was better. Perhaps it like dr shen's (or Leons) separation of yin yang in patients that do not seem critical.

Alon

 

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