Guest guest Posted February 22, 2002 Report Share Posted February 22, 2002 I can't find your original post anymore, much to my frustration, but somewhere you mentioned that you don't like to treat patients on blood thinners with herbs at all, due to possible side effects. Sometimes it is difficult to not want to give herbs though, if one feels it could make a difference. For instance, a patient was brought into the clinic by her daughter. The patient is on coumadin because of a past history of stroke. She also has had type two diabetes for thirty years. Unfortunately, the antibiotic the doctor gave her isn't making her infected foot heal. The daughter is (rightfully) worried Mom will require an amputation. I suspect its a problem of delivery. This lady lies in bed most of the time, and I think her circulation is bad enough to where the antibiotic didn't make it to the foot. (Assuming ofcourse the MD prescribed the correct antibiotic; I don't think he tested the wound for a culture.) So I wanted to prescribe blood movers, and the clinical supervisor concurred, although she had me take out the Tao Ren. Do you and others reading this feel that blood movers are absolutely prohibited when a patient is on coumadin. Or if you would use a blood mover, which one. It seems Hong Hua, Chuan Xiong, and Ji Xue Teng are relatively mild, followed by Tao Ren. Where does Wu Li Zi fit in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 The odd thing is when patients are on materials such as coumadin, frank signs of blood stasis often remain. I have prescribed blood movers to such patients, however, only when there is weekly monitoring of blood viscosity and the cardiologist is enrolled in the strategy. Will In a message dated 2/23/02 10:08:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes: Do you and others reading this feel that blood movers are absolutely > prohibited when a patient is on coumadin. Or if you would use a blood > mover, which one. It seems Hong Hua, Chuan Xiong, and Ji Xue Teng are > relatively mild, followed by Tao Ren. Where does Wu Li Zi fit in. Perhaps I am overly cautious in this regard, but I think any of these herbs can potentiate anticoagulants like heparin, possibly leading to a dangerous bleeding episode. I think when I did research for a drug/ herb interaction software, I came across abstracts to support this idea. I will see if I can find the abstracts on my hard drive. I believe John Chen and Subhuti Dharmananda also advise against this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 , " gabriellemathieu " < gabriellemathieu> wrote: > > Do you and others reading this feel that blood movers are absolutely > prohibited when a patient is on coumadin. Or if you would use a blood > mover, which one. It seems Hong Hua, Chuan Xiong, and Ji Xue Teng are > relatively mild, followed by Tao Ren. Where does Wu Li Zi fit in. Perhaps I am overly cautious in this regard, but I think any of these herbs can potentiate anticoagulants like heparin, possibly leading to a dangerous bleeding episode. I think when I did research for a drug/ herb interaction software, I came across abstracts to support this idea. I will see if I can find the abstracts on my hard drive. I believe John Chen and Subhuti Dharmananda also advise against this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 Do you and others reading this feel that blood movers are absolutely > prohibited when a patient is on coumadin. Or if you would use a blood > mover, which one. It seems Hong Hua, Chuan Xiong, and Ji Xue Teng are > relatively mild, followed by Tao Ren. Where does Wu Li Zi fit in.>>>>Just do friquent PT times' Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 Z'ev - True, there is risk and liability in the practice of medicine. Avoiding treatment of blood stasis in a post-stroke patient on coumadin with frank signs of blood stasis is also risk laden in my opinion. The choice was for what would protect the patient's life on the basis of differential diagnosis. Will I think this is reasonable, but the TCM practititioner takes on some risk and liability in doing so. On Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 02:19 PM, WMorris116 wrote: > The odd thing is when patients are on materials such as coumadin, frank > signs of blood stasis often remain. I have prescribed blood movers to > such patients, however, only when there is weekly monitoring of blood > viscosity and the cardiologist is enrolled in the strategy. > > Will > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 I totally agree. I avoid using blood regulating medicinals with coumadin. . . .unless they are secondary ingredients in a prescription designed to treat something other than blood stasis. But as Gabrielle points out, there are degrees of strength in this category. Wu ling zhi would be totally contraindicated, chuang xiong perhaps not, depending on what it was combined with. On Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 10:08 AM, 1 wrote: > , " gabriellemathieu " < > gabriellemathieu> wrote: > > > > > Do you and others reading this feel that blood movers are absolutely > > prohibited when a patient is on coumadin. Or if you would use a blood > > mover, which one. It seems Hong Hua, Chuan Xiong, and Ji Xue Teng are > > relatively mild, followed by Tao Ren. Where does Wu Li Zi fit in. > > Perhaps I am overly cautious in this regard, but I think any of these > herbs can potentiate anticoagulants like heparin, possibly leading to a > dangerous bleeding episode. I think when I did research for a drug/ > herb interaction software, I came across abstracts to support this > idea. I will see if I can find the abstracts on my hard drive. I > believe John Chen and Subhuti Dharmananda also advise against this. > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 I think this is reasonable, but the TCM practititioner takes on some risk and liability in doing so. On Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 02:19 PM, WMorris116 wrote: > The odd thing is when patients are on materials such as coumadin, frank > signs of blood stasis often remain. I have prescribed blood movers to > such patients, however, only when there is weekly monitoring of blood > viscosity and the cardiologist is enrolled in the strategy. > > Will > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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