standards of discourse

[Guest guest]

Ken:

 

Did you also study other Tai Ji forms besides Cheng's---like chen,

etc.?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Bob,

>

> I would be very interested

> > in reading a balanced reappraisal of Prof. Cheng's work,

especially

> > vis a vis CM. He certainly was a controversial figure in the

milieu

> in

> > which I lived back then.

>

> I don't think I can provide such a thing.

> I never knew him personally, but I've

> known several people over the years who

> studied with him.

>

> I don't know of a biography per se,

> although there are various biographical

> sketches of him included in several books

> that are available both in English and

> Chinese.

>

> You might find his lecture notes on

> Lao Zi of interest. They're in a book

> called Lao Tzu, My Words Are Very Easy

> To Understand, translated by the Professor's

> student, Tam Gibbs. In fact I find this

> translation of the Dao De Jing to be one

> of the better I've seen, and since it

> is a bilingual edition, it's proven to

> be a rather useful book to me over the

> years.

>

> I know Fernando has a website dedicated

> to the man, so perhaps he can be of help

> finding more biographical materials.

> I know he was a unique human being,

> not only controversial.

>

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim,

>

> Did you also study other Tai Ji forms besides Cheng's---like chen,

> etc.?

 

I have studied different versions of the

Yang family's style of tai4 ji2. This

includes several variations of the long

(or large) form (or frame), and a couple

of versions of short form (or small frame).

 

I have been exposed to other styles, Chen,

Wu, Ho, Sun, and others. But aside from

learning a few of the postures, I've

never studied these other styles.

 

Most of the past 30 years, I've studied

and practiced Prof. Cheng's short form

and related skills.

 

Do you study?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ken:

 

I started studing in the mid-70s and continued until the past half

dozen years. I felt there wasn't enough time to be good at it and

continue studying pulses and the rest of CM. I first started

studying with Waysun Liao in Chicago, who studied sword with Cheng.

His yang style was shorter and characterized by his Vibrating Crane

background. She Fu Yen (sp?), who also studied for a time with Cheng

among others, was also in Chicago teaching the long yang style, but

I picked up his form indirectly. Then a little bit of shuai chiao,

and a few other forms until I started studying Chen style. My

acupuncture teacher taught us qi gong from his Korean sword and

Shaolin style background---his acupuncture needling style was

characterized by his sword. Now, I just do some qi gong and various

sitting meditations.

 

I doubt anyone will be able to needle well without studying some

form of tai ji or qi gong; unfortunately the schools don't emphasize

it enough for students.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Jim,

> >

> > Did you also study other Tai Ji forms besides Cheng's---like

chen,

> > etc.?

>

> I have studied different versions of the

> Yang family's style of tai4 ji2. This

> includes several variations of the long

> (or large) form (or frame), and a couple

> of versions of short form (or small frame).

>

> I have been exposed to other styles, Chen,

> Wu, Ho, Sun, and others. But aside from

> learning a few of the postures, I've

> never studied these other styles.

>

> Most of the past 30 years, I've studied

> and practiced Prof. Cheng's short form

> and related skills.

>

> Do you study?

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim, Ken, and all,

If I may chime in on a favorite subject, taiji---

I also studied with Waysun Liao in Oak Park around 1977

and then moved to Minneapolis where I studied with a Prof. Cheng group.

Tam Gibbs, Fred Lehrman, and Maggie Newman frequently came there to teach.

Then to Madison, WI where I studied at the Tai Chi Chuan Center of Madison,

a Yang long form, sword, and t'ui shou. Domingo Tiu from Oak Park

often taught there, as did Peter Ralston from Oakland. One of the teachers

at that TCC center was a very young Jake Fratkin, then just beginning his

practice of acupuncture. My last major teacher, one with whom I studied

five days a week for 8 years, was Yin, Xian He in Milwaukee. He taught

many shaolin forms, a long taiji form which we all understood to be of

Wu derivation but may actually be Yang, very large frame. He also

taught me his taiji sword form. What I learned from Yin t I continue

to practice. I find teaching and practicing taiji a nice balance

and complementary to my cm practice.

 

I doubt anyone will be able to needle well without

studying some

form of tai ji or qi gong; unfortunately the schools

don't emphasize

it enough for students.

 

I am glad you said this, Jim, for I couldn't agree more.

While some may find the taiji and qigong thread a little 'off-topic,' I

hope others will understand our passion and its relationship to the

practice of cm.

Frances

jramholz wrote:

Ken:

I started studing in the mid-70s and continued until

the past half

dozen years. I felt there wasn't enough time to be

good at it and

continue studying pulses and the rest of CM. I first

started

studying with Waysun Liao in Chicago, who studied

sword with Cheng.

His yang style was shorter and characterized by his

Vibrating Crane

background. She Fu Yen (sp?), who also studied for

a time with Cheng

among others, was also in Chicago teaching the long

yang style, but

I picked up his form indirectly. Then a little bit

of shuai chiao,

and a few other forms until I started studying Chen

style. My

acupuncture teacher taught us qi gong from his Korean

sword and

Shaolin style background---his acupuncture needling

style was

characterized by his sword. Now, I just do some qi

gong and various

sitting meditations.

I doubt anyone will be able to needle well without

studying some

form of tai ji or qi gong; unfortunately the schools

don't emphasize

it enough for students.

Jim Ramholz

, "dragon90405" <yulong@m...>

wrote:

> Jim,

> >

> > Did you also study other Tai Ji forms besides

Cheng's---like

chen,

> > etc.?

>

> I have studied different versions of the

> Yang family's style of tai4 ji2. This

> includes several variations of the long

> (or large) form (or frame), and a couple

> of versions of short form (or small frame).

>

> I have been exposed to other styles, Chen,

> Wu, Ho, Sun, and others. But aside from

> learning a few of the postures, I've

> never studied these other styles.

>

> Most of the past 30 years, I've studied

> and practiced Prof. Cheng's short form

> and related skills.

>

> Do you study?

>

> Ken

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Frances:

 

Ah, the old days! We may have crossed pathes at Liao's. Were you

able to study with Shuai Jiao grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng there---I

still remember his brief Hsing Yi form? One of my friends actually

bought a large 5' earthen vase that Chang described in his training

(you hold it in stance, and when ready start adding water). Earlier

I was able to buy a heavier knife from Liao; the first group of

swords and staffs were also much better for vibratory training. I

was at Liao's for five years, 1974-1979; then went to study with

Dave Mishlove, who was much more open about teaching internal

training. Mishlove brought Domingo Tiu in for classes on sinew

changing and some advanced techniques; and also brought in She Fu

Yen for Buddhists sitting medititations. There was long line of

masters whose brains Mishlove picked. Both Jake Fratkin and I began

studying acupuncture with Ineon Moon.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, Frances Gander <fgander@c...> wrote:

> Jim, Ken, and all,

>

> If I may chime in on a favorite subject, taiji---

> I also studied with Waysun Liao in Oak Park around 1977 and then

moved

> to Minneapolis where I studied with a Prof. Cheng group. Tam

Gibbs,

> Fred Lehrman, and Maggie Newman frequently came there to teach.

Then to

> Madison, WI where I studied at the Tai Chi Chuan Center of

Madison, a

> Yang long form, sword, and t'ui shou. Domingo Tiu from Oak Park

often

> taught there, as did Peter Ralston from Oakland. One of the

teachers at

> that TCC center was a very young Jake Fratkin, then just beginning

his

> practice of acupuncture. My last major teacher, one with whom I

studied

> five days a week for 8 years, was Yin, Xian He in Milwaukee. He

taught

> many shaolin forms, a long taiji form which we all understood to

be of

> Wu derivation but may actually be Yang, very large frame. He also

> taught me his taiji sword form. What I learned from Yin t I

continue to

> practice. I find teaching and practicing taiji a nice balance and

> complementary to my cm practice.

>

> > I doubt anyone will be able to needle well without

> > studying some

> > form of tai ji or qi gong; unfortunately the schools

> > don't emphasize

> > it enough for students.

> >

> I am glad you said this, Jim, for I couldn't agree more. While

some may

> find the taiji and qigong thread a little 'off-topic,' I hope

others

> will understand our passion and its relationship to the practice

of cm.

>

> Frances

>

> jramholz wrote:

>

> > Ken:

> >

> > I started studing in the mid-70s and continued until the past

half

> > dozen years. I felt there wasn't enough time to be good at it and

> > continue studying pulses and the rest of CM. I first started

> > studying with Waysun Liao in Chicago, who studied sword with

Cheng.

> > His yang style was shorter and characterized by his Vibrating

Crane

> > background. She Fu Yen (sp?), who also studied for a time with

Cheng

> > among others, was also in Chicago teaching the long yang style,

but

> > I picked up his form indirectly. Then a little bit of shuai

chiao,

> > and a few other forms until I started studying Chen style. My

> > acupuncture teacher taught us qi gong from his Korean sword and

> > Shaolin style background---his acupuncture needling style was

> > characterized by his sword. Now, I just do some qi gong and

various

> > sitting meditations.

> >

> > I doubt anyone will be able to needle well without studying some

> > form of tai ji or qi gong; unfortunately the schools don't

emphasize

> > it enough for students.

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...>

wrote:

> > > Jim,

> > > >

> > > > Did you also study other Tai Ji forms besides Cheng's---like

> > chen,

> > > > etc.?

> > >

> > > I have studied different versions of the

> > > Yang family's style of tai4 ji2. This

> > > includes several variations of the long

> > > (or large) form (or frame), and a couple

> > > of versions of short form (or small frame).

> > >

> > > I have been exposed to other styles, Chen,

> > > Wu, Ho, Sun, and others. But aside from

> > > learning a few of the postures, I've

> > > never studied these other styles.

> > >

> > > Most of the past 30 years, I've studied

> > > and practiced Prof. Cheng's short form

> > > and related skills.

> > >

> > > Do you study?

> > >

> > > Ken

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> > I doubt anyone will be able to needle well without

> > studying some

> > form of tai ji or qi gong; unfortunately the schools

> > don't emphasize

> > it enough for students.

> >

> I am glad you said this, Jim, for I couldn't agree more. While

some may

> find the taiji and qigong thread a little 'off-topic,' I hope others

> will understand our passion and its relationship to the practice

of cm.

 

Sun Si Miao wrote that without reading

Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi you won't know

how to live your daily life. And just

look at the resistance that the suggestion

that people read more generates!

 

My own training in Chinese medicine is

based on several pillars. One is the

classics. One is the cultivation and

refinement of qi4. I don't see how

education in the subject of traditional Chinese

medicine, which bases its interactions

on the concept of qi4, can be conducted

in the absence of data and techniques

for familiarizing student/practitioners

with qi4 and helping them to develop

the understanding and skill they will

require throughout their lives to

cultivate their qi4 as a basic step in

the process that eventually enables

them to interact successfully with

the qi4 of their patients.

 

I practice tai4 ji2, so that when

interacting with others I might have

something to give. One of my teachers

in Chengdu, He Tian Xiang, made it

very clear to me that my practice of

tai4 ji2 was an enduring prerequisite

to the development of any meaningful

skill in massage therapy.

 

How much truer when the tool is a

needle. Perhaps most subtle and poignant

when the influence is conveyed through

the agency of medicinal formulas.

 

There is, indeed, a magic in this

medicine. But you can't just pretend.

Tai4 ji2 brings us to this point

very directly. It is, after all,

like Chinese medicine, an artifact

that was developed to help apply

yin1 yang2 theory to life.

 

My tai4 ji2 teacher in Chengdu,

Chen Wan Chuan, frequently tells

me, " Tai4 ji2 is a doctor. "

 

 

Originally, it seems that herbs were

all categorized according to qi4 and

flavor: si4 qi4 wu3 wei4. Using the

word qi4 to describe functional aspects

of medicinals suggests that the understanding

is all based on yin1 and yang2. An alternate

name for yin1 yang2 is tai4 ji2.

 

But if you don't know yin1 and yang2,

then how does any of this make any sense?

And if you don't study tai4 ji2, then

how do you learn yin1 and yang2?

 

Ken