Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 Will, > > How is this expressed in terms of the curriculum? > > The doctorate contains a full year of focus on Nei Jing Su Wen, Shang Han > Lun, Wen Bing. Just to be sure I understand correctly, what does a full year focus translate into in terms of contact hours? What are the requirements and expectations, if they can be iterated yet, of the courses involved? Do the courses in the classics dive right into the text? Or is there attention paid to the nature of the Chinese medical literature so that students can understand how they should relate to the material? Are these courses using the Chinese texts? Or do they rely completely on translated versions? Thanks for any information you can provide in the way of additionial descriptions of the program, courses, etc. The Master's contains Shang Han Lun, Wen Bing, Are these separate classes? Both taught in one class? These are part of the core curriculum, right? How many hours in the Master's are devoted to study of the classics? And electives > of Nei Jing Su Wen, and Practical Application of the Classics. That's two, two-unit electives? Are they well attended? Offered every quarter? > > I just completed teaching a > > > course where students must use in their presentations etymology, > > classical > > > passages, and contemporary sources. > > > > What was the course? What are the students > > presenting? > > > > Acupuncture Energetics - they presented on divergents, eight extras, San Jiao > theory, sinew vessels with extra focus on the ancestral vessel, and Taoist > cosmology as it relates to Chinese medicine. The requirement is to use > material from internet resources, classics, etymology, contemporary authors. > This must be done as a group with AV. Each of these topics was discussed > during the course and the students present for an hour as a group for their > finals. Got it. I understand more what you mean now when you say you're arguing from both camps. I can't tell much about the details of the work done, so I don't know how you're doing the teaching. But from what you describe it sound like just the kind of inclusion of linguistic, philosophical and related material that I'm suggesting. So tell us, how does it work? Do students come away with an appreciation for the role of language and philosophy in understanding the medical concepts? Do you feel that you give them something of value in this approach to teaching about the acupuncture points? Do you think you'll offer this class again? What's your assessment of this approach both as a teacher and as an administrator? How long have you been teaching this way? If it represents a change from earlier approaches, can you identify factors that contributed to that change? Sorry for throwing so many questions at you, but you have indeed succeeded at steering the discussion in to a useful vein. Thanks, Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 > > How is this expressed in terms of the curriculum? > > The doctorate contains a full year of focus on Nei Jing Su Wen, Shang Han > Lun, Wen Bing. Just to be sure I understand correctly, what does a full year focus translate into in terms of contact hours? What are the requirements and expectations, if they can be iterated yet, of the courses involved? 120 contact hours at the doctoral level. They are required to study Chinese language as pre or corequisites. My expectation is they are able to interpret passages into meaningful clinical strategies. And, that they can site passages as support for research projects and so forth. Do the courses in the classics dive right into the text? Or is there attention paid to the nature of the Chinese medical literature so that students can understand how they should relate to the material? Should relate to the material? I abhor the notion. However, discussion about approach and linguistic issues will be involved. Are these courses using the Chinese texts? Or do they rely completely on translated versions? Both....But because most are not fluent, the primary focus will be English language texts. There will be some great new ones between Van Nghi, Unschuld, and Kendell. People can go a long way comparing varieties of translation. The Master's contains Shang Han Lun, Wen Bing, Are these separate classes? Both taught in one class? These are part of the core curriculum, right? How many hours in the Master's are devoted to study of the classics? Core curriculum is 40 hours SHl and wen Bing are conjoined. We have to remeber that some of the roots of internal medicine are in the Jin Gui Yao Lue. And electives > of Nei Jing Su Wen, and Practical Application of the Classics. That's two, two-unit electives? Are they well attended? Offered every quarter? These are not offered every quarter, they are two to four depending. And, no they are not typically well attended. Got it. I understand more what you mean now when you say you're arguing from both camps. I can't tell much about the details of the work done, so I don't know how you're doing the teaching. But from what you describe it sound like just the kind of inclusion of linguistic, philosophical and related material that I'm suggesting. So tell us, how does it work? Do students come away with an appreciation for the role of language and philosophy in understanding the medical concepts? Do you feel that you give them something of value in this approach to teaching about the acupuncture points? This system works great, I have never seen such an enthusiastic group of students. Do you think you'll offer this class again? What's your assessment of this approach both as a teacher and as an administrator? How long have you been teaching this way? This has been an evolution in teaching concepts over a period of 15 years. It is partly driven by the nature of the content. It is one of the most fulfilling teaching experiences of my career and the students felt simlarly. This method works for me. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 WMorris116 wrote: > I do question the value of extensive time spent on philosophy for > philosophy's sake. Give me clinical value. Show philosophical > conversations which empower patients to transform there lives out of > suicidal depression into a sense of meaning, intention, and > effectiveness. I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I think that you've hit upon the clinical benefit of philosophy. It can be used to help transform lives. Alon, how many of your patients present with some sort of stress induced etiology? I'm sure you'll admit to a sizable percentage, perhaps lower in the orthopedic type practices, but still significant. These are those who would benefit from understanding that yin and yang arise together. That for every curse there is a hidden blessing, and in every gift there is a responsibility. People can be helped to understand that the bad times of their lives can only be followed by improvement because ultimate yin becomes yang. Sometimes, chronic or even acute pain can be untreatable by acupuncture for whatever reason, in which case transforming pain into somatic sensation can assist a patient in taking control of their reality. This is one of the underpinnings in one particular meditation technique that I know of based on Hinayana Buddhism. We can all treat pain syndromes rather easily. Just stick a needle into it, and add a distal point or three. These cases are pretty straight forward musculo-skeletal, but for all the cases where the pathology extends out of the physical and into the shen level we need needles that can reach into that Qi. Those needles are tools to help to accept life as it is and the guide tube is our words. Philosophy is a tool, one that reaches into the spirit through the mind, through the brain. I've said the right thing at the right moment to the right patient and before that first needle goes in, the treatment has been successful. Clinical benefits include a profound acceptance which allows stagnated Qi to circulate treating the root cause of a whole slew of Liver related pathologies. I'm not a big fan of cosmetic surgery, though in my practice I see quite a few individuals who've had work done. Few feel any more attractive, they're still looking in the mirror wondering what's wrong with them trying desperately to fix their ugliness. The problem here is that the surgeon's scalpel doesn't cut deep enough to remove their internal issues surrounding their appearance and self-esteem. In some ways, our needles, herbs, and Qi Gong exercises have similar limitations. We can treat symptoms and in many cases causal issues as well. However we can't always get down to the source with these tools alone. It is our words, when applied with experience and sincerity that can reach down (up?) into the spirit and effect a real change. I had a Kung Fu teacher who taught Tui Na. My very first experience with meridian therapy was when he treated my sciatica with acupressure up and down the UB channel. It got 90% better in one day. I was rather impressed and that one experience put me on the path that we all now share. But there was something else that he did for me as well. He helped me break free of an unhealthy attachment I had to a religious leader. Religious leader is a generous term for " cult leader " . He did this by simply pointing to a poster inside his office. The poster featured a sculpture of the Buddha. The caption read simply " Look inside, thou art the Buddha. " It was the right thing at the right time to the right person for the right reason. After that point, I voted republican. ha ha. Seriously though, I began to let go of the past and pursue self-understanding by listening to my heart. The hypertension I suffered from caused by frustration in following my existing career path soon went away after I began to make decisions based on the newly found wisdom of my heart. I found a new career path that has been generally nourishing to me. My hypertension is no longer a problem. TCM is an application of a philosophy into the medical arena. However we're still free to take a step backwards into the philosophy of it all to treat people on that level as well. Good friday, to you all. : ) -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 Al: Excellent point. All the technical details arise out of the discussion of philosophy. It's a personal choice rather than professional advantage to forgo any philosophical interests and concentrate on the technical details. Jim Ramholz , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > WMorris116@A... wrote: > > > I do question the value of extensive time spent on philosophy for > > philosophy's sake. Give me clinical value. Show philosophical > > conversations which empower patients to transform there lives out of > > suicidal depression into a sense of meaning, intention, and > > effectiveness. > > I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I think that you've hit upon > the clinical benefit of philosophy. It can be used to help transform > lives. > > Alon, how many of your patients present with some sort of stress induced > etiology? I'm sure you'll admit to a sizable percentage, perhaps lower > in the orthopedic type practices, but still significant. These are those > who would benefit from understanding that yin and yang arise together. > That for every curse there is a hidden blessing, and in every gift there > is a responsibility. > > People can be helped to understand that the bad times of their lives can > only be followed by improvement because ultimate yin becomes yang. > Sometimes, chronic or even acute pain can be untreatable by acupuncture > for whatever reason, in which case transforming pain into somatic > sensation can assist a patient in taking control of their reality. This > is one of the underpinnings in one particular meditation technique that > I know of based on Hinayana Buddhism. > > We can all treat pain syndromes rather easily. Just stick a needle into > it, and add a distal point or three. These cases are pretty straight > forward musculo-skeletal, but for all the cases where the pathology > extends out of the physical and into the shen level we need needles that > can reach into that Qi. Those needles are tools to help to accept life > as it is and the guide tube is our words. > > Philosophy is a tool, one that reaches into the spirit through the mind, > through the brain. I've said the right thing at the right moment to the > right patient and before that first needle goes in, the treatment has > been successful. Clinical benefits include a profound acceptance which > allows stagnated Qi to circulate treating the root cause of a whole slew > of Liver related pathologies. > > I'm not a big fan of cosmetic surgery, though in my practice I see quite > a few individuals who've had work done. Few feel any more attractive, > they're still looking in the mirror wondering what's wrong with them > trying desperately to fix their ugliness. The problem here is that the > surgeon's scalpel doesn't cut deep enough to remove their internal > issues surrounding their appearance and self-esteem. In some ways, our > needles, herbs, and Qi Gong exercises have similar limitations. We can > treat symptoms and in many cases causal issues as well. However we can't > always get down to the source with these tools alone. It is our words, > when applied with experience and sincerity that can reach down (up?) > into the spirit and effect a real change. > > I had a Kung Fu teacher who taught Tui Na. My very first experience > with meridian therapy was when he treated my sciatica with acupressure > up and down the UB channel. It got 90% better in one day. I was rather > impressed and that one experience put me on the path that we all now > share. > > But there was something else that he did for me as well. He helped me > break free of an unhealthy attachment I had to a religious leader. > Religious leader is a generous term for " cult leader " . He did this by > simply pointing to a poster inside his office. The poster featured a > sculpture of the Buddha. The caption read simply " Look inside, thou art > the Buddha. " > > It was the right thing at the right time to the right person for the > right reason. After that point, I voted republican. ha ha. Seriously > though, I began to let go of the past and pursue self- understanding by > listening to my heart. The hypertension I suffered from caused by > frustration in following my existing career path soon went away after I > began to make decisions based on the newly found wisdom of my heart. I > found a new career path that has been generally nourishing to me. My > hypertension is no longer a problem. > > TCM is an application of a philosophy into the medical arena. However > we're still free to take a step backwards into the philosophy of it all > to treat people on that level as well. > > Good friday, to you all. : ) > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone@B...> > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 >Al, Thank you for your beautiful words. The twists and turns and dichotomies created in debates with words not well defined can be so misleading. At the heart of it all lies a medicine that is both technical and philosophical, logical and intuitive, simple and complex. You remind us of this. Sonya Al Stone <alstone > > >Re: Re: Those Pesky Nuances >Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:57:30 -0800 > > > >WMorris116 wrote: > > > I do question the value of extensive time spent on philosophy for > > philosophy's sake. Give me clinical value. Show philosophical > > conversations which empower patients to transform there lives out of > > suicidal depression into a sense of meaning, intention, and > > effectiveness. > >I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I think that you've hit upon >the clinical benefit of philosophy. It can be used to help transform >lives. > >Alon, how many of your patients present with some sort of stress induced >etiology? I'm sure you'll admit to a sizable percentage, perhaps lower >in the orthopedic type practices, but still significant. These are those >who would benefit from understanding that yin and yang arise together. >That for every curse there is a hidden blessing, and in every gift there >is a responsibility. > >People can be helped to understand that the bad times of their lives can >only be followed by improvement because ultimate yin becomes yang. >Sometimes, chronic or even acute pain can be untreatable by acupuncture >for whatever reason, in which case transforming pain into somatic >sensation can assist a patient in taking control of their reality. This >is one of the underpinnings in one particular meditation technique that >I know of based on Hinayana Buddhism. > >We can all treat pain syndromes rather easily. Just stick a needle into >it, and add a distal point or three. These cases are pretty straight >forward musculo-skeletal, but for all the cases where the pathology >extends out of the physical and into the shen level we need needles that >can reach into that Qi. Those needles are tools to help to accept life >as it is and the guide tube is our words. > >Philosophy is a tool, one that reaches into the spirit through the mind, >through the brain. I've said the right thing at the right moment to the >right patient and before that first needle goes in, the treatment has >been successful. Clinical benefits include a profound acceptance which >allows stagnated Qi to circulate treating the root cause of a whole slew >of Liver related pathologies. > >I'm not a big fan of cosmetic surgery, though in my practice I see quite >a few individuals who've had work done. Few feel any more attractive, >they're still looking in the mirror wondering what's wrong with them >trying desperately to fix their ugliness. The problem here is that the >surgeon's scalpel doesn't cut deep enough to remove their internal >issues surrounding their appearance and self-esteem. In some ways, our >needles, herbs, and Qi Gong exercises have similar limitations. We can >treat symptoms and in many cases causal issues as well. However we can't >always get down to the source with these tools alone. It is our words, >when applied with experience and sincerity that can reach down (up?) >into the spirit and effect a real change. > >I had a Kung Fu teacher who taught Tui Na. My very first experience >with meridian therapy was when he treated my sciatica with acupressure >up and down the UB channel. It got 90% better in one day. I was rather >impressed and that one experience put me on the path that we all now >share. > >But there was something else that he did for me as well. He helped me >break free of an unhealthy attachment I had to a religious leader. >Religious leader is a generous term for " cult leader " . He did this by >simply pointing to a poster inside his office. The poster featured a >sculpture of the Buddha. The caption read simply " Look inside, thou art >the Buddha. " > >It was the right thing at the right time to the right person for the >right reason. After that point, I voted republican. ha ha. Seriously >though, I began to let go of the past and pursue self-understanding by >listening to my heart. The hypertension I suffered from caused by >frustration in following my existing career path soon went away after I >began to make decisions based on the newly found wisdom of my heart. I >found a new career path that has been generally nourishing to me. My >hypertension is no longer a problem. > >TCM is an application of a philosophy into the medical arena. However >we're still free to take a step backwards into the philosophy of it all >to treat people on that level as well. > >Good friday, to you all. : ) > >-- >Al Stone L.Ac. ><AlStone >http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > >Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Sonya _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 Alon, how many of your patients present with some sort of stress inducedetiology? I'm sure you'll admit to a sizable percentage, perhaps lowerin the orthopedic type practices, but still significant. These are thosewho would benefit from understanding that yin and yang arise together.That for every curse there is a hidden blessing, and in every gift thereis a responsibility.>>>Al Its never all or nothing. Yes I will then use Yin and Yang as well as cognitive approaches and others. We are talking about degrees here Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 We can all treat pain syndromes rather easily. Just stick a needle into> it, and add a distal point or three. These cases are pretty straight> forward musculo-skeletal, but for all the cases where the pathology> extends out of the physical and into the shen level we need needles that> can reach into that Qi. >>>>>O boy if that was the case then why do we need to study. I will strongly disagree here. I am not in the business of teaching people to live with their pain. That I leave to all the MDs, DC,s and other practioners out there. To me a patients comes so that he/she could resume all their previous preinjury activities. If I can do that I conceded it a clinical failure, within resin of course Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2002 Report Share Posted March 17, 2002 Ken - You are not translating the chapter to which I refer and extrapolate clinically viable material. Please refer to chapter 16. The passage you have translated deals with dated systems of determining time - we have clocks now and interpretations of such passages are best rendered contemporary - ideally with clinical relevance. My interpretation of Ying stands and is predicated on commentary from 'Survey of .' Therein Ying or Rong has wood in the lower portion of the character. I am quite familiar with the encampment metaphor for the simplified character. The cosmological significance of Chapter 15 is tremendous. While I suspect there is clinical value, I have used acupuncture systems predicated on such thought periodically for the last ten years. It has not proven as clinically useful as the subtle pulse methods of the various traditions. I suspect there is value in the system, so I inspect every so often to see if a change in understanding will affect the clinical outcomes. As for the interpretation on the Wei Qi cycle - you are again referencing the wrong passage - please look at Chapter 76 Wei Qi Xing. This will be my last response on this matter. Let us agree to disagree. I have deadlines to meet and cannot spend time on this form of debate. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2002 Report Share Posted March 17, 2002 Will, > > > > Ying Qi flows in the channels - Wei Qi flows outside the channels. > > So...I > > > mean " movement of Ying Qi in the channels " this gives the diurnal > > cycle of Qi > > > as discussed in basic texts. > > > > > Which texts are those? > > > > Ling Shu Chapters 16 & 17, the inherent structure of CAM and how channels are > taught beginning with the lung channel. In addition those texts which > describe organ clock theory. I looked at this section of Ling Shu, and I think that your reading of it is skewed by a misunderstanding of the character ying1. Here's a rough and fairly literal translation of Chapter 15, which is entitled The Fifty Ying1. The third and fourth sections of Ling Shu discuss some basic issues of anatomy and physiology. Chapters 10-13 discuss the channels. Chapter 14 talks about proportional measurements of bones. Chapter 15 is where the discussion of ying1 qi4 begins, and the definition begins to form there. This translation is based upon a version of the text that appears in a collectin of Eight Chinese Medical Classics published in 1994 by Hua Xia Publishing House in Beijing " Huang Di said, I would like to hear about the fifty ying1? " Qi Bo answered, The celestial sphere consists of 28 constellations, each of which is divided into 36 parts. One complete cycle of qi4 consists of 1,008 divisions. The sun progresses through the 28 constellations, while in the human body [qi4 circulates] through the channels and vessels, from top to bottom, left to right, front to back, twenty eight vessels [in all], whose entire length throughout the whole body comprises 16 zhang4 and 2 chi2, which correlates with [movement of the sun through] the 28 constellations. In the time it takes for the qi4 to circulate through the 28 constellations, the water clock will lose 100 notches of water marking the passage of one day and one night. When a person exhales, the vessels move [so that] the qi4 travels 3 cun4. Inhaling, the vessels again move, and the qi4 travels another three cun. Thus in one whole breath [one inhalation and one exhalation] the qi4 travels 6 cun4. In ten breaths , the qi4 travels 6 chi2, and the sun travels through 2 divisions. In 270 breaths the qi4 travels 16 zang4 and two chi2. The qi4 travels and interconnects within, circulating one cycle throughout the body while the water (in the clock) goes down two notches. [in the same time] The sun travels 20 of these divisions, with a remainder [i.e. approximately]. In 540 breaths, the qi4 cycles twice throughout the body and the water clock goes down 4 notches. The sun will travel 40 divisions. In 2700 breaths the qi4 travels 10 cycles throughout the body and the water descends 20 notches. The sun travels through 5 constellations and 20 divisions. In 13,500 breaths, the qi4 travels 50 ying1 throughout the body. The water goes down 100 notches. The sun travels throughout all 28 constellations. The water drains completely [from the clock]. The pulse is thus complete. This is known inter-connection and along with each enumeration of this cycle of qi4, if the 50 ying1 are completed, you can gain the longevity of heaven and earth. Totally, the qi4 travels 810 zhang4. " > > > Does the wei4 qi4 follow a diurnal cycle? > > Or are you saying that the ying2 qi4 moves > > in dirunal cycles because it moves in the > > channels...and wei4 qi4 does not because > > it does not move in the channels? > > > > Wei Qi also follows a diurnal rhythm. It cycles 25 times during the day from > Tai Yang to Shao Yang to Yang Ming and returning throught the Yin. It then > flows interior cycling 25 times during the night from water to fire to metal > to wood to earth and so on. This is not precisely what is presented in Chapter 18. It's fairly long and I just don't have the time at the moment to put up a translation of it. But the relevant material is in the first part of the chapter if you want to look it over. So more precisely, the Ying is tracking the > pathway of the sun through the channels This statement is neither precise nor does it conform to the meaning presented above. The point, as I read it, has to do with the temporal correlations that exist between the movement of qi4 through the body and the progress of the sun throughout the course of the day. The idea that the " Ying is tracking the pathway of the sun through the channels " is really quite obscure, and I don't see anything in the text that supports it. > > Do you still maintain that the lower portion of > > ying2 contains the water radical? > > > > No, my bad it is rong with the character for wood - this implies spring and > also sap moving in the trees.... > No. There is no wood radical in the character ying1. Your inference about a metaphor with sap moving in the trees is not justified by the character. The notion of the fifty ying1 presented in Chapter 15 and extending through the following material does indeed establish the definition of ying1 qi4, but it is based on the martial metaphor implicit in the word, which means " encampment of troops " and speaks of the substantive endowment of qi4 and the way in which it encamps in the body. It is called ying1 because it circulates and interconnects and thereby provides the substantive basis for life from which the body draws its sustenance. And of course it is differentiated from wei4 which guards the perimeter of the camp. You recoiled in abhorrence the other day when I suggested that students be taught how they ought to read the classics. But there are certain restraints that must be placed on interpretation of the meanings of characters and texts in which they are used. If we permit such free reign in attributing meanings to words that they never had, the whole enterprise loses its coherence. This is sort of thing that I have in mind when asserting that neglect of the study of the nomenclature and literature has a negative influence on the subject. More importantly, I think we need to demand that whatever amount of scholarship is employed in the teaching of clinicians, it should be accurate. Do we need to know about philosophy, astronomy, and all the other subjects that Sun Si Miao suggested we include in the prerequisites to the study of medicine? Do we need to understand the words correctly? You tell me. What is this water clock doing in the Ling Shu? And constellations? The movement of the sun in all of these passages is not purely for poetic effect or some sort of stylistic conceit. The Chinese in the Han period when the text in question was likely codified were inveterate measurers. And this predilection to count and reckon and measure the movements of the natural world is clearly in evidence in the formation of the meanings of medical terms and theories. One of the powerful potentials that the approach of Han theorists sought to actualize is the capacity to see what is going on inside of systems by visualizing their external manifestations. The kind of thinking that emerges in Chinese medical theory as zang4 xiang4, for example, is evident in these passages from Ling Shu. And it's all a matter of a philosophical perspective based upon even more ancient notions about the relationship of heaven, earth, and humanity. Without studying these things, how are we to know what to make of the words and phrases that rely on them for their meanings? I do not suggest that there is a " right way " to approach such study that somehow excludes other ways. But any way that is taken has to conform to certain standards of meaning that have been established and transmitted over thousands of years. This is, I believe, what Sun Si Miao was saying when he wrote out the prerequisites that we've translated in the introductory material to Who Can Ride the Dragon? The task we face in understanding the Ling Shu is more or less the same one that faced Sun himself when he read it. Ours is a bit more complicated and difficult as not being Chinese we have to acquire a familiarity with Chinese words, standards, values, and ideas. They are the ying1 qi4 of the subject and just as Qi Bo advised Huang Di to pay attention to the completion of the cycling of ying1 qi4 in the body in order to attain longevity, if we want to ensure the longevity of the whole subejct, we have to pay attention to the details. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2002 Report Share Posted March 17, 2002 Will, > You are not translating the chapter to which I refer and extrapolate > clinically viable material. Please refer to chapter 16. The discussion you cite begins in Chapter 15, which is why I put that rough translation up. The concept of ying1 movements, i.e. the circulation of qi4 through 50 ying1 begins in Chapter 15 and continues in Chapter 16. Chaper 17 concerns measurements of the vessels. The passage you have > translated deals with dated systems of determining time - we have clocks now > and interpretations of such passages are best rendered contemporary - ideally > with clinical relevance. This is non sequitur, Will. Of course it deals with dated systems of determing time. Those were the only systems they had! The fact that we measure time today with different clocks has nothing whatsoever to do with understanding the meaning of what's written in these treatises. > > My interpretation of Ying stands and is predicated on commentary from 'Survey > of .' Therein Ying or Rong has wood in the lower portion of > the character. I don't know the book you mention. But if it shows a wood radical in the lower portion of the character ying2, then it contains a noteworthy mistake. By the way, I think I've been mistyping ying2 as ying1, for anyone who's noticed. The correct tone is 2. I don't have any idea what you mean here by " Rong " . Please don't take my word for any of this about ying2. Just look it up in a dictionary. Or ask one of the native Chinese teachers there to point out the wood radical in ying2 and tell us what happens. You know, of course that the wood radical most commonly occurs on the left hand side of characters and not at the bottom. Anyone, of course, can verify what I'm saying. Just show the character ying2 to someone familiar with Chinese and ask whether or not the lower portion is or contains a wood radical. Better yet, just learn what the wood radical looks like and then look at ying2 and see if what you see is the wood radical. It's not a debate really. It's just a matter of taking a look. I am quite familiar with the encampment metaphor for the > simplified character. It is not a metaphor for the simplified character. It is one of the meanings of the word, no matter simplified or complex. Sometimes the meanings of characters change with changes in how they are written, but I don't believe that this meaning of ying2 has altered significantly for the past 2,000 years...that is until you suggested that it means something about sap running in trees. If you've got a book that states this, get a different book. > The cosmological significance of Chapter 15 is tremendous. While I suspect > there is clinical value, I have used acupuncture systems predicated on such > thought periodically for the last ten years. It has not proven as clinically > useful as the subtle pulse methods of the various traditions. I suspect there > is value in the system, so I inspect every so often to see if a change in > understanding will affect the clinical outcomes. Sorry, you lost me. > > As for the interpretation on the Wei Qi cycle - you are again referencing the > wrong passage - please look at Chapter 76 Wei Qi Xing. I didn't offer any interpretation of the " Wei Qi cycle " . And if you don't want to continue the discussion, what's the point of referring me to yet another citation in Ling Shu? > This will be my last response on this matter. Let us agree to disagree. I > have deadlines to meet and cannot spend time on this form of debate. Entirely up to you, of course. If you turn your back on me and this discussion I hope you don't turn your back on the dictionary and the meaning of the word ying2. I think you owe it to your students to teach them based upon the actual meaning. If you don't favor the form of debate that focuses on specifics, what do you prefer? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 Ken OK I will take a break and respond in part to your comments. Will: The passage you have > translated deals with dated systems of determining time - we have clocks now > and interpretations of such passages are best rendered contemporary - ideally > with clinical relevance. Ken:<<This is non sequitur, Will. Of course it deals with dated systems of determining time. Those were the only systems they had! The fact that we measure time today with different clocks has nothing whatsoever to do with understanding the meaning of what's written in these treatises.>> Will: This directly relevant – dealing directly with your choice of passages. It has everything to do with understanding the material and rendering it practical and contemporary. Ken: <<Of courese, ying2 does not mean rong2 and other than the fact that they share certain components, they are not related in meaning. Rong2 means 1) grow exuberantly or luxuriantly; 2) prosper, flourish, succeed thrive; 3) honor.>> Will: Yes Rong is the word which is used secondarily for the word Ying by Schatz, Larre, and Rochat. In addition it is used primarily by Van Nghi and Tran. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 Will, Thanks for responding. It's finally clear to me what has taken place. If you had mentioned that what you were talking about was the substitution of rong2 for ying2 it would have made things much a little clearer. I've looked over several dictionaries in the meanwhile as well as passages from Su Wen, Ling Shu, and Jin Gue. Rong2 is indeed sometimes used to mean ying2 and their meanings seem to be conflated by a theoretical consideration that when the ying2 is rong2 the whole body flourishes. Or in other words, the fullness of the ying2 contributes to the luxuriant growth of the body. That's just my thumbnail condensation of it. Sorry that I didn't recognize that this is what you were intending to say. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Ken - > If you had mentioned that what > you were talking about was the substitution > of rong2 for ying2 it would have > made things much a little clearer. That is why I stated " Ying or Rong " > Rong2 is indeed sometimes used to > mean ying2 This awareness on my part does not come from reading Chinese. It results from reading and studying with European practitioners/authors who are biased towards pre-cultural revolution sources. The whole conversation here could easily move in the direction of policy creation. That is what worries me, so I'll restate my position that is fundamentally liberal and neutral: Allow people to study those topics which interest them. Those who have aptitude for languages tend to focus there. Those who have clinical aptitudes will focus there and so on. In essence - some people will merge academics and clinical life and some won't. The fact is they can all be effective and successful. Will PS - I accept your apology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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