another intermediary question

[Guest guest]

Is yang xu ALWAYS a further complication of qi xu? In Fundamentals,

spleen yang xu is explicitly described as a further debilitation of

spleen qi. However, kidney qi xu is described as a subset of kidney

yang xu, not a precursor. While spleen qi xu can lead to spleen yang xu

and thus to kidney yang xu, can't kidney yang xu arise without spleen

involvement? And can spleen yang xu arise without qi xu first being

present? The question arose when one of my students said he was taught

that qi xu ALWAYS precedes yang xu. Now I know he was taught that the

s/s of spleen yang xu are the same as those of spleen qi xu plus COLD

signs. But it is unclear if he was taught the idea of progression from

qi xu to yang xu as a general rule or merely in the context of the

spleen. He became confused when a chinese clinical supervisor

contradicted this " fact " . It is perhaps somewhat a moot point, as in

the discussion of whether damp always precedes phlegm. Because you

treat what you see now, not what was there before. In addition, classic

spleen yang tonics contain qi tonic herbs (like li zhong wan).

 

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[Guest guest]

Is yang xu ALWAYS a further complication of qi xu

>>>A cold evil can damage Yang directly and lead to so called Sp or K-Yang def.

Alon

[Guest guest]

 

 

> Is yang xu ALWAYS a further complication of qi xu?

 

No.

 

In Fundamentals,

> spleen yang xu is explicitly described as a further debilitation of

> spleen qi. However, kidney qi xu is described as a subset of

kidney

> yang xu, not a precursor. While spleen qi xu can lead to spleen

yang xu

> and thus to kidney yang xu, can't kidney yang xu arise without

spleen

> involvement?

 

What would that mean was actually happening

with the patient?

 

If pressed to answer your hypothetical, I'd

be inclined to say, certainly it can. Whether

or not it does would depend on knowing such

things as:

 

What does it mean in terms of physiology?

What pathomechanisms are involved?

What is the meaning of kidney yang2 xu1?

 

for starters.

 

And can spleen yang xu arise without qi xu first being

> present?

 

These questions presume a certain kind of

categorical impreative that I don't believe

applies so strictly. Again, it's a matter

of mode of thinking as well as the precise

definitions of terms.

 

The question arose when one of my students said he was taught

> that qi xu ALWAYS precedes yang xu. Now I know he was taught that

the

> s/s of spleen yang xu are the same as those of spleen qi xu plus

COLD

> signs. But it is unclear if he was taught the idea of progression

from

> qi xu to yang xu as a general rule or merely in the context of the

> spleen.

 

I'm not sure what you're working through here.

What the students was taught compared to what

he says he was taught? Or the underlying conundrum

associated with the relationship of qi4 and yang2?

 

Here is another instance in which a thorough

understanding of the basic terms and a familiarity

and facility with the mode of thought in which

they are expected to perform can go a long way in

bolstering understanding of the clinical realities.

 

It seems to me that the underlying confusion

on the part of your student is the relationship

between qi4 and yang2. What does it mean to be

in the yang2 category? What does it mean that

qi4 xu1 leads to yang2 xu1? Again, not just

in abstract terms, but in terms of what is

being described about a human being.

 

He became confused when a chinese clinical supervisor

> contradicted this " fact " .

 

I suspect that he was confused prior to this

and that this contradiction served to bring

his confusion to light. If I were helping

the student sort it all out, I'd definitely

first check to see what his understanding of

each of the basic terms involved is and take

it from there.

 

It is perhaps somewhat a moot point, as in

> the discussion of whether damp always precedes phlegm. Because you

> treat what you see now, not what was there before. In addition,

classic

> spleen yang tonics contain qi tonic herbs (like li zhong wan).

>

One of the powerful themes in Chinese medical

theory is the notion of the whole. Study of

the language teaches us to maintain the overall

perspective while dealing with the details

that constitute the whole. The body, after all,

is one whole thing, complex and involved in all

manner of interactions, internally and externally.

 

If we describe this or that condition as being

characterized by yang2 xu1 or qi4 xu1 related

to this or that organ, we're simply particularizing

certain aspects of the overall dynamics. No

such description cancels either other aspects

of the organism or the overall dynamics of the

whole system functioning as a totality.

 

Without knowing any more than I do about

the situation you're describing, it sounds

to me that it's another instance of a medical

term/theory being called upon to perform in

a way that it was never intended to be used,

i.e. the positing of " laws " that one expects

the body to obey.

 

Ken