education in china

[Guest guest]

I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to this question. I read

somewhere that while TCM education in China is longer than ours, that a

nice chunk of this is college level sciences. Since the students at

these schools go right from high school, they need to also study the

type of classes that are considered prerequisites at american

acupuncture schools. So they take biology and chemistry, etc. That

their actual classroom instruction in TCM is no greater than that at a

long program like PCOM's 3200 hours. They do, of course, have more

extensive and varied clinical training and more modern biomedicine. Is

this correct?

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

According to Dr. Ku, Su lian, director of Florida Institute of

Traditional , this is true. On his school's cataloge

he states: " The TCM program closely parallels the five year training

programs in China and encompasses a broad spectrum of TCM theories " .

Mind you, this is a 2082 class hours of instruction plus 800 hours of

clinical intern/externship training.

 

I do think that they have more clinical training and more info on

modern biomedicine.

 

I think, however, that if you compare the overall experience of

dedicated American practitioner to that of Chinese practitioner one to

two year after graduating, that the non-Chinese probably has more

experience dealing with a wider variety of disorders than his Asian

counterpart. As you know, a young Chinese practitioner is given cases

he/she can handle according to her/his experience and is protected

under a medical greenhouse, while here in America, once you hang your

shingle, your first patient may have Cystic fibrosis.

 

Also, I remember one of our teachers talking about the fact that many

TCM students end up in TCM schools because their grades did not

qualify them to go into other academic fields. So they had to settle

for TCM school. While here in the West, we go to TCM schools because

we want to. I think that in the long run this makes a big difference

in clinic.

 

I recall many of our young teachers quickly quote book knowledge about

this or that disease. Or they talked about their " lao yi sheng " or

" old doctor " who did this or that but never really had treated the

disorders themselves. Of course, many patients were impressed by the

fact that these doctors had *worked* in hospitals in China and had

such great teachers. Their real experience, however, was minimal at

best. Sorry about the soap-box.

 

Fernando

 

, <@i...> wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to this question. I read

> somewhere that while TCM education in China is longer than ours,

that a

> nice chunk of this is college level sciences. Since the students at

> these schools go right from high school, they need to also study the

> type of classes that are considered prerequisites at american

> acupuncture schools. So they take biology and chemistry, etc. That

> their actual classroom instruction in TCM is no greater than that at

a

> long program like PCOM's 3200 hours. They do, of course, have more

> extensive and varied clinical training and more modern biomedicine.

Is

> this correct?

>

 

[Guest guest]

I don't recall PCOM (or most other schools) actually having any

pre-req's.. The sciences you mention, I thought, were incorporated into

the (American) programs. I didn't even think that most schools required

an undergraduate...? I too, though, am curious about the differences in

the education (east vs west) i.e. I have heard numerous times that by

the 2nd year they (Chinese) are memorizing good portions of classic

texts i.e. SHL ? IS this true?

 

-Jason

 

>

>

> Saturday, March 23, 2002 2:00 PM

> cha

> education in china

>

> I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to this question. I read

> somewhere that while TCM education in China is longer than ours, that

a

> nice chunk of this is college level sciences. Since the students at

> these schools go right from high school, they need to also study the

> type of classes that are considered prerequisites at american

> acupuncture schools. So they take biology and chemistry, etc. That

> their actual classroom instruction in TCM is no greater than that at a

> long program like PCOM's 3200 hours. They do, of course, have more

> extensive and varied clinical training and more modern biomedicine.

Is

> this correct?

>

 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Fernando, and All,

 

One thing I always try to keep in mind when

talking about China is the size of the place

and the issues related to order of magnitude

and range of variations that exist...on virtually

any subject.

 

Making generalizations can be useful, but

only if they serve to advance general knowledge

that is then carefully applied to the understanding

of particular situations.

 

The vast majority of my personal experience with

Chinese educational institutions involved in the

State-administered education of TCM is in and

around Chengdu. Most of that at CDUTCM.

 

There is a good deal of similarity between

curricula and character of education at the

colleges and universities, but there are also

lots of local variations I believe. One

thing that I think has to be considered is

the relationship of these institutions to

the rest of the educational system.

 

Here is a link to a page at the website of

CDUTCM. It's a list of links to other colleges

and universities around the country. A good

starting point for anyone who wants to

explore more deeply into Chinese education

in Chinese medicine.

 

http://www.cdutcm.edu.cn/wldh/wldh.htm

 

[...]

>

> I do think that they have more clinical training and more info on

> modern biomedicine.

 

My general impression of the education

provided most undergraduates at CDUTCM

on modern biomedical matters is that it

more or less conforms with that provided

to their opposite numbers at the colleges

and universities of Western medicine in

China. This reflects and serves to advance

a range of official concerns and policies

related to public health. I can sum it up

like this: the Chinese expect that anyone

who is trained as a doctor in China will have

the same level of education about human bodies

and medical knowledge about them. And

it's the aim of the undergraduate programs

to instill this basic level of understanding

and competence with respect to the most

modern science available. This even

applies to the education of Western MDs

in China, who are given an overview of

TCM as part of their education in many

medical schools in China. The larger

Western medical universities have departments

or colleges of traditional Chinese medicine.

One example I'm familiar with is West China

University of Medical Science, now merged

with Sichuan Union University.

 

The undergraduates are organized into

various colleges, departments and majors

at the larger universities, as in Chengdu.

 

And the requirements for different undergraduate

degrees varies according to specialty. Acupuncturists,

pharacists, doctors of internal medicine thus

all receive more or less the same basic medical

education and then different ratios of concentrations in

their specialization subject.

 

 

>

> I think, however, that if you compare the overall experience of

> dedicated American practitioner to that of Chinese practitioner one

to

> two year after graduating, that the non-Chinese probably has more

> experience dealing with a wider variety of disorders than his Asian

> counterpart.

 

This has not been my experience. The major difference

is the volume of patients encountered in the teaching

clinics in China. In Chengdu, the hospital attached

to the university logs some 3,000+ outpatient visits

a day. These are the clinics where the student observers

observe and the interns apprentice. I've worked in

various departments and the range of diseases and

conditions is fairly extensive. In fact one of the

things that fairly well characterizes the difference

between the medical education of doctors of TCM in

Chengdu from those I've seen being educated here

in the States is that the young Chinese doctors

emerge from school with a far deeper understanding

of what it means to take care of someone who is

sick, based upon a vastly more comprehensive range

of clinical experiences that have accumulated by

the time of graduation.

 

As you know, a young Chinese practitioner is given cases

> he/she can handle according to her/his experience and is protected

> under a medical greenhouse, while here in America, once you hang

your

> shingle, your first patient may have Cystic fibrosis.

 

I don't know exactly what you mean Fernando.

If you're talking about the new graduates,

they deploy into various assignments based

upon differing factors. Some do become " junior "

doctors in busy clinics where they are no

doubt slowly integrated into the management

of cases. And it does make sense not to give

the newcomers the most difficult cases as their

sole responsibility. But many find themselves

as the sole practitioner in smaller clinics

in their home towns, and there they wouldn't

have such a luxury.

 

Even those who find work in the larger facilities

are certainly exposed to the whole range of

cases, even if they are not put in charge

of tough ones until the senior staff has

satisfied itself of their competence.

 

There is not a single facility in the

United States that I know of that presents

the kind of clinical opportunities that

are available in a hospital like the one

attached to CDUTCM. Nowhere close.

 

 

>

> Also, I remember one of our teachers talking about the fact that

many

> TCM students end up in TCM schools because their grades did not

> qualify them to go into other academic fields. So they had to

settle

> for TCM school.

 

Over the early and mid-90s I taught English

and translation of Chinese medical terms

and texts to hundreds of students at CDUTCM.

 

I got to know a few dozen well. Most of

these were graduate students, consisting

of Masters, Doctorate, and post-Doc candidates.

 

By the graduate level, the attitude that

anybody is " settling " for an education in

TCM is very rare in my experience. My general

impression of those students that I can to

know is that they are highly motivated, curious,

and dedicated to learning the science and the

art of traditional medicine. The growth of

interest in the subject internationally has

had many effects in China. But certainly one

of them is to bring to it the lustre that

accompanies anything in China these days that

enhances one's likeliehood of encountering

international opportunities. The younger

students, of whom I knew fewer, no doubt reflect

the various drawbacks of the Chinese educational

system generally. It is an intensely high pressure

scene. All through high school, Chinese students

are pushed with enormous ferocity through an

opening that leads into college through which

some 10% pass. You can imagine the pressures that

build up.

 

While here in the West, we go to TCM schools because

> we want to. I think that in the long run this makes a big

difference

> in clinic.

 

An interesting point. I'd like to read

more of your thoughts on this. Again, it doesn't

match my experience over the years. You seem

to be suggesting that the doctors of Chinese

medicine trained in the States have some sort

of higher motivation than those in China, if

that's a fair characterization of your statement.

 

And I don't agree with that.

 

>

> I recall many of our young teachers quickly quote book knowledge

about

> this or that disease. Or they talked about their " lao yi sheng " or

> " old doctor " who did this or that but never really had treated the

> disorders themselves. Of course, many patients were impressed by

the

> fact that these doctors had *worked* in hospitals in China and had

> such great teachers. Their real experience, however, was minimal at

> best. Sorry about the soap-box.

>

 

I'm not sure what you're point is here.

It seems pretty obvious that younger

folks have far less experience than

the doctors who have trained them and

whose advice they largely follow.

 

One last point about the education system

in China, Todd. Attached to CDUTCM there is

a TCM middle school. This is just an example

of how much more extensive the TCM education

system is in China. The scene there differs

in many important ways from the scene here.

 

And let's not forget the fact that Chinese

students enter TCM college being able to

pick up their Language of the Medical Classics

textbooks and dive more or less directly into

this study without having to first become

familiar with the Chinese language, as do

non-Chinese students of Chinese medicine.

 

There are also layers, dimensions or however

we might characterize them of cultural

education that arrive with incoming freshmen

in Chinese colleges and universities. So

again, I think making generalizations about

the scene there and comparing it to the

scene here is valuable in some ways but

loaded with pitfalls, some of which may

not be visible until you've fallen in.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " " <@o...>

wrote:

> I don't recall PCOM (or most other schools) actually having any

> pre-req's.. The sciences you mention, I thought, were

incorporated into

> the (American) programs. I didn't even think that most schools

required

> an undergraduate...?

 

PCOM requires 60 credits as prereqs, which is equal to two

years of college. I think most schools have this requirement.

OCOM requires 90 credits, I think and they must specifically be

in areas like science,math, etc.

 

I have heard numerous times that by

> the 2nd year they (Chinese) are memorizing good portions of

classic

> texts i.e. SHL ? IS this true?

 

I have heard they memorize the clauses, but do not study

commentary or modern applications at the bachelor's level at

most schools

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

> I have heard they memorize the clauses, but do not study

> commentary or modern applications at the bachelor's level at

> most schools

 

Study of Chinese classics is one of the pitfalls

to which I just now referred. What does it mean

to study a Chinese classic?

 

I've often answered when asked for my

opinion to the " How much is enough? "

question that what matters is getting

started. In the tradition of the classics,

study of the classics is a lifetime

enterprise. If you try to draw comparisons

between what happens at a particular

level or point in the Chinese education

with what happens here, you are bound

to end up with an erroneous impression

if you don't take into account a wider range

of factors.

 

One of the reasons why I'm pushing so

intently on the point about literacy

with respect to Chinese medical Chinese

and its associated literature is that

it does take a community of scholarship

to support such an undertaking.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Fernando, and All,

 

> >

> > I think, however, that if you compare the overall experience of

> > dedicated American practitioner to that of Chinese practitioner

> >one to two year after graduating, that the non-Chinese probably has

> >more experience dealing with a wider variety of disorders than his

> >Asian counterpart.

 

> This has not been my experience. The major difference

> is the volume of patients encountered in the teaching

> clinics in China. In Chengdu, the hospital attached

> to the university logs some 3,000+ outpatient visits

> a day. These are the clinics where the student observers

> observe and the interns apprentice.

 

 

This is one of those postings where I wish I had thought twice and

written once. Since I've never been to China I really have not idea on

how things are done there and no business dealing with this subject.

Looking at your post however does raise some questions that perhaps

you can help me see more clear.

 

With 3000+ outpatients visists a day, what is the ratio of patients to

practitioners? How much one on one experience does the average student

have in dealing with patients? How long does the average initial visit

last? How are follow-ups handled? Do patients report on a few days or

does the doctor check with the patient's progress?

 

 

 

I've worked in

> various departments and the range of diseases and

> conditions is fairly extensive. In fact one of the

> things that fairly well characterizes the difference

> between the medical education of doctors of TCM in

> Chengdu from those I've seen being educated here

> in the States is that the young Chinese doctors

> emerge from school with a far deeper understanding

> of what it means to take care of someone who is

> sick, based upon a vastly more comprehensive range

> of clinical experiences that have accumulated by

> the time of graduation.

 

 

How? Do you mean by actual hands on like changing dressings on

bedsores? Are you talking about patients who have been hospitalized

for a period of time or outpatients? How is their understanding deeper

for someone say with diabetes deeper from us here? Again, with 3000+

patients per day, how much can really be absorbed?

 

 

 

> >As you know, a young Chinese practitioner is given cases

> > he/she can handle according to her/his experience and is protected

> > under a medical greenhouse, while here in America, once you hang

> your shingle, your first patient may have Cystic fibrosis.

 

 

> I don't know exactly what you mean Fernando.

> If you're talking about the new graduates,

> they deploy into various assignments based

> upon differing factors. Some do become " junior "

> doctors in busy clinics where they are no

> doubt slowly integrated into the management

> of cases. And it does make sense not to give

> the newcomers the most difficult cases as their

> sole responsibility.

 

 

My point is that here in the States we go to the trenches right after

graduating. I'm not saying that this is better to the gradual

nurturing and mentoring found in Chinese hospitals but it must have a

deeper impact on our development as practitioners just by the mere

pressure of having to be fully accountable for our patient's health.

 

In my case, I do not have anyone that I can call for help. Other than

my training, my books, this list, Al Stone's list, and the various

sites on tcm, I'm alone. Sad, but it's true. I'm not by any means

feeling sorry for myself. It's just the way it is, and I can deal with

it. Very frustrating at times. Nonetheless, I'm growing as I scrounge

for info. No time to be spoon-fed. This is what I meant by the above.

 

 

> There is not a single facility in the

> United States that I know of that presents

> the kind of clinical opportunities that

> are available in a hospital like the one

> attached to CDUTCM. Nowhere close.

>

 

This is too bad and hopefully it will change in the future.

 

 

> >

> > Also, I remember one of our teachers talking about the fact that

> >many TCM students end up in TCM schools because their grades did >

>not qualify them to go into other academic fields. So they had to

> >settle for TCM school.

 

 

> By the graduate level, the attitude that

> anybody is " settling " for an education in

> TCM is very rare in my experience. My general

> impression of those students that I can to

> know is that they are highly motivated, curious,

> and dedicated to learning the science and the

> art of traditional medicine. The growth of

> interest in the subject internationally has

> had many effects in China. But certainly one

> of them is to bring to it the lustre that

> accompanies anything in China these days that

> enhances one's likeliehood of encountering

> international opportunities.

 

Are you saying here that the possibility of traveling is

is a factor for some students to study TCM?

 

 

 

> > While here in the West, we go to TCM schools because

> > we want to. I think that in the long run this makes a big

> >difference in clinic.

 

 

> An interesting point. I'd like to read

> more of your thoughts on this. Again, it doesn't

> match my experience over the years. You seem

> to be suggesting that the doctors of Chinese

> medicine trained in the States have some sort

> of higher motivation than those in China, if

> that's a fair characterization of your statement.

>

> And I don't agree with that.

 

While trying not to make any sweeping generalizations, yes, that's

what I mean.

 

> >

> > I recall many of our young teachers quickly quote book knowledge

> >about this or that disease. Or they talked about their " lao yi

> >sheng " or " old doctor " who did this or that but never really had

> >treated the disorders themselves. Of course, many patients were

> >impressed by the fact that these doctors had *worked* in hospitals

> >in China and had such great teachers. Their real experience,

> >however, was minimal at best.

 

 

> I'm not sure what you're point is here.

> It seems pretty obvious that younger

> folks have far less experience than

> the doctors who have trained them and

> whose advice they largely follow.

 

By way of analogy, I'll point to young girls in my country where at

the tender age of 9 to 12 take on maternal responsibilities towards

their younger siblings so that mom can go to work. No doubt these

girls miss out academically, however, they mature and become more

responsible and experienced due to circumstances.

 

> And let's not forget the fact that Chinese

> students enter TCM college being able to

> pick up their Language of the Medical Classics

> textbooks and dive more or less directly into

> this study without having to first become

> familiar with the Chinese language, as do

> non-Chinese students of Chinese medicine.

 

Can't argue with that. Thanks for your input.

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

>

>

> This is one of those postings where I wish I had thought twice and

> written once. Since I've never been to China I really have not idea

on

> how things are done there and no business dealing with this subject.

 

I appreciate, respect, and admire you for

saying so. I was in China for more than a year

before it dawned on me that I should be

thinking twice about things. I had studied

China, Chinese thought, taiji, Chinese

medicine, for years before I first went.

I thought I knew something about these

things and like you would not hesitate

to express my opinions, rarely questioning

whether or not they were correct. It

took quite a while before these long-established

mental habits of mine revealed themselves

to me as simply inaccurate compared to

what actualy exists there.

 

Of course questions about traditional

Chinese medicine are more tricky, owing

mainly to the fact that the past is harder

to see and can only be experienced vicariously

or as memories.

 

I'd be curious to know, if you don't mind

my asking, what do you think gave you the

impression that you did know about the

scene in China?

 

 

> Looking at your post however does raise some questions that perhaps

> you can help me see more clear.

 

I doubt that. That doesn't mean that I

don't think you and I both couldn't

see more clearly. Hopefully, we can.

But I just don't know what to do

really to help. But as you know, I'm

certainly willing to share my own

distortions.

 

 

>

> With 3000+ outpatients visists a day, what is the ratio of patients

to

> practitioners?

 

The hospital is divided into two major

units: inpatient and outpatient.

 

In the inpatient wards, which are essentially

circular in design in the hospital at CDUTCM,

There are more than a dozen floors of wards.

As I recall there are approx. 750 beds in all.

There is a resident in each ward at all times.

He or she is accompanied by assistants and

interns. There is also a nursing staff, and

one of the big differences between the administration

of TCM in Chengdu and in the States is this

factor of traditional Chinese nursing, which

as far as I know simply doesn't exist in

this country, as there is a dearth of TCM

in inpatient hospitals here. All of this is

a way of saying that there are lots of personnel

in the inpatient wards and far from having

visiting hours, patients' relatives are omnipresent

in most cases. They bring food. They camp out.

They provide a good deal of the attention to

details that a hospitalized patient requires

and far more included in the overall case

management issues than has been my limited

experience in American hospitals.

 

A Chinese hospital is a very, very different

place than an American hospital. So making

comparisons has to be done carefully for those

who have never seen or been in one.

 

In the outpatient clinics, there's a supervising

doctor in each room. I'll describe the one

with which I am most familiar in the hospital

and it will give you an idea of how the whole

acupuncture deparment works. This was a scalp

acupuncture clinic. In a typical morning, approximately

20-30 patients were seen. Along with Dr. Zhou,

who was the supervising doctor in this clinic,

there were usually two or three assistants and

interns during peak hours. This team, which is

quite flexibly organized and deployed throughout

the day, takes care of that number of people.

 

How much one on one experience does the average student

> have in dealing with patients?

 

I'm stumbling over what you mean exactly by

one on one. My initial response was just to

note that all experience dealing with patients

is one on one. How else can you deal with a

patient? But then I thought that perhaps you

have something more specific in mind.

 

Students are put into the clinics relatively

early. I believe it varies according to

department and specialization. The acupuncture

students are observing in the clinic while

they are studying their basic theory and

they do year long internships in their

final year. I'm not sure about this but I

believe that these internships generally

include time spent in both the inpatient

and outpatient clinics. Again, most of

the students that I knew well were graduates.

 

They were through their basic training

and were doing more advanced study and

residencies. Masters degrees require two

or three additional years after graduation.

To get a Doctorate, a candidate has to

have several years of clinical experience

beyond such residencies and, of course,

demonstrate their academic competence.

The doctoral programs run to around 5

or more years and are often interrupted

by work or family issues. But generally

on cannot receive a Doctorate with less

than 13 years of study and clinical experience.

 

And it may take 20 years or more to

complete such requirements.

 

 

How long does the average initial visit

> last?

 

Of course it depends on how complicated

the case is. In routine cases, the initial

visit will only be a few minutes longer

than follow up visits. An initial diagnosis

is completed on average within 10 minutes.

 

How are follow-ups handled? Do patients report on a few days or

> does the doctor check with the patient's progress?

 

Of course in the outpatient clinics

patients are their own case managers.

Often family fill this role. I have

known doctors to follow up, make

phone calls, etc. to patients. But

this is the exception rather than

the rule in my experience. The whole

culture of being a patient is quite

different. And the explanation of that

statement would be quite lengthy.

 

>

>

>

> I've worked in

> > various departments and the range of diseases and

> > conditions is fairly extensive. In fact one of the

> > things that fairly well characterizes the difference

> > between the medical education of doctors of TCM in

> > Chengdu from those I've seen being educated here

> > in the States is that the young Chinese doctors

> > emerge from school with a far deeper understanding

> > of what it means to take care of someone who is

> > sick, based upon a vastly more comprehensive range

> > of clinical experiences that have accumulated by

> > the time of graduation.

>

>

> How? Do you mean by actual hands on like changing dressings on

> bedsores? Are you talking about patients who have been hospitalized

> for a period of time or outpatients? How is their understanding

deeper

> for someone say with diabetes deeper from us here? Again, with

3000+

> patients per day, how much can really be absorbed?

 

You've asked several complicated questions.

I think part of the problem remains how

utterly different the whole picture is.

So comparing parts of it gets strange.

The press and pressures of humanity in

China are enormous. It's not really possible

to describe it adequtely, at least I've

not found a way.

 

Your question about relative depth of

understanding raises some interesting

issues. Does sheer volume of clinical

experience result in deeper understanding?

Does deeper understanding result in more

effective clinical skill?

 

>

> My point is that here in the States we go to the trenches right

after

> graduating. I'm not saying that this is better to the gradual

> nurturing and mentoring found in Chinese hospitals but it must have

a

> deeper impact on our development as practitioners just by the mere

> pressure of having to be fully accountable for our patient's health.

>

> In my case, I do not have anyone that I can call for help. Other

than

> my training, my books, this list, Al Stone's list, and the various

> sites on tcm, I'm alone. Sad, but it's true. I'm not by any means

> feeling sorry for myself. It's just the way it is, and I can deal

with

> it. Very frustrating at times. Nonetheless, I'm growing as I

scrounge

> for info. No time to be spoon-fed. This is what I meant by the

above.

 

I see your point. It's hard for me to

characterize the life of a Chinese student

of TCM as spoon-fed at any step of the way.

 

I submit for the consideration of those

who have yet failed to understand the

consequences of studying medicine without

knowing its language and literature that

the omission of these two critical factors

leads directly to the kind of isolation

and alienation that you describe so clearly.

Communities and the organizations and

institutions that constitute them are built

on shared values. Without a common language

and a shared knowledge base, in other words

a foundation on which to build, these

structures cannot be erected.

>

>

> > There is not a single facility in the

> > United States that I know of that presents

> > the kind of clinical opportunities that

> > are available in a hospital like the one

> > attached to CDUTCM. Nowhere close.

> >

>

> This is too bad and hopefully it will change in the future.

 

Only if someone changes it.

But certainly one

> > of them is to bring to it the lustre that

> > accompanies anything in China these days that

> > enhances one's likeliehood of encountering

> > international opportunities.

>

> Are you saying here that the possibility of traveling is

> is a factor for some students to study TCM?

 

In my experience, Chinese people generally

are excited by the growing prospects for

international travel and exchange. I don't

know how much influence this has on undergrads,

but I know from several graduate students

and veteran doctors that the attraction of

international travel is considerable.

>

>

You seem

> > to be suggesting that the doctors of Chinese

> > medicine trained in the States have some sort

> > of higher motivation than those in China, if

> > that's a fair characterization of your statement.

> >

> > And I don't agree with that.

>

> While trying not to make any sweeping generalizations, yes, that's

> what I mean.

 

Well, I continue to disagree and find it to

be an unwise and unfair generalization and

one that is contradicted by my personal

experience. I am not saying, by the way,

that the motivation of those in China

is superior to that of Americans or

any other group. I have not found any

particular group of human beings, more

or less regardless of how they define

themselves, to be more noble than the

rest of us. What's more, my limited study

of history has shown me that the greatest

harm often comes from those expressing

the highest ideals and arguing that their

motivations are higher. So it plucks up

my yang2, if you know what I mean.

 

I'm curious as to why this is an issue

with you.

 

 

By way of analogy, I'll point to young girls in my country where at

> the tender age of 9 to 12 take on maternal responsibilities towards

> their younger siblings so that mom can go to work. No doubt these

> girls miss out academically, however, they mature and become more

> responsible and experienced due to circumstances.

 

Obviously you're making reference to social and

cultural differences, and I understand

what you're saying. But I think you're

also making reference to economic realities

and again, I'm drawn to wonder where this

is all heading.

>

> > And let's not forget the fact that Chinese

> > students enter TCM college being able to

> > pick up their Language of the Medical Classics

> > textbooks and dive more or less directly into

> > this study without having to first become

> > familiar with the Chinese language, as do

> > non-Chinese students of Chinese medicine.

>

> Can't argue with that. Thanks for your input.

 

Thank you, Fernando. You've made me think

twice about these things as well, and I

think they're worth thinking about a few

times.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

When I was looking into schools, some like OCOM and the Seattle schools required required biology, botany, anatomy/physiology as prerequisites. The school I ended up attending, SWAC, offered them in the program if you didn't already have the credits. And 2 years of undergraduate were required.

 

-

1

Saturday, March 23, 2002 6:39 PM

Re: education in china

, "" <@o...> wrote:> I don't recall PCOM (or most other schools) actually having any> pre-req's.. The sciences you mention, I thought, were incorporated into> the (American) programs. I didn't even think that most schools required> an undergraduate...? PCOM requires 60 credits as prereqs, which is equal to two years of college. I think most schools have this requirement. OCOM requires 90 credits, I think and they must specifically be in areas like science,math, etc.I have heard numerous times that by> the 2nd year they (Chinese) are memorizing good portions of classic> texts i.e. SHL ? IS this true?I have heard they memorize the clauses, but do not study commentary or modern applications at the bachelor's level at most schoolsToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

In Vietnam, when I practiced in the Hospital,This is bigest

Hospital in the country, I treated 100 patients a day on Accupunture, in

Asian hospital they have more practice than in American, also you have

to choose which one is best to study. But most of them is good any

way.So I think Fernando is right in his point. Also, our language we

talk about Oriental theory we could feel better than English, because

our theory base on feeling more than scientific, however the definition

is to high to find out by scientific, but I think may be in 20-50years

the scientises will find out how it works

 

Nhung Ta

 

fbernall wrote:

>

> , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> > Fernando, and All,

>

> > >

> > > I think, however, that if you compare the overall experience of

> > > dedicated American practitioner to that of Chinese practitioner

> > >one to two year after graduating, that the non-Chinese probably has

> > >more experience dealing with a wider variety of disorders than his

> > >Asian counterpart.

>

> > This has not been my experience. The major difference

> > is the volume of patients encountered in the teaching

> > clinics in China. In Chengdu, the hospital attached

> > to the university logs some 3,000+ outpatient visits

> > a day. These are the clinics where the student observers

> > observe and the interns apprentice.

>

> This is one of those postings where I wish I had thought twice and

> written once. Since I've never been to China I really have not idea on

> how things are done there and no business dealing with this subject.

> Looking at your post however does raise some questions that perhaps

> you can help me see more clear.

>

> With 3000+ outpatients visists a day, what is the ratio of patients to

> practitioners? How much one on one experience does the average student

> have in dealing with patients? How long does the average initial visit

> last? How are follow-ups handled? Do patients report on a few days or

> does the doctor check with the patient's progress?

>

> I've worked in

> > various departments and the range of diseases and

> > conditions is fairly extensive. In fact one of the

> > things that fairly well characterizes the difference

> > between the medical education of doctors of TCM in

> > Chengdu from those I've seen being educated here

> > in the States is that the young Chinese doctors

> > emerge from school with a far deeper understanding

> > of what it means to take care of someone who is

> > sick, based upon a vastly more comprehensive range

> > of clinical experiences that have accumulated by

> > the time of graduation.

>

> How? Do you mean by actual hands on like changing dressings on

> bedsores? Are you talking about patients who have been hospitalized

> for a period of time or outpatients? How is their understanding deeper

> for someone say with diabetes deeper from us here? Again, with 3000+

> patients per day, how much can really be absorbed?

>

> > >As you know, a young Chinese practitioner is given cases

> > > he/she can handle according to her/his experience and is protected

> > > under a medical greenhouse, while here in America, once you hang

> > your shingle, your first patient may have Cystic fibrosis.

>

>

> > I don't know exactly what you mean Fernando.

> > If you're talking about the new graduates,

> > they deploy into various assignments based

> > upon differing factors. Some do become " junior "

> > doctors in busy clinics where they are no

> > doubt slowly integrated into the management

> > of cases. And it does make sense not to give

> > the newcomers the most difficult cases as their

> > sole responsibility.

>

> My point is that here in the States we go to the trenches right after

> graduating. I'm not saying that this is better to the gradual

> nurturing and mentoring found in Chinese hospitals but it must have a

> deeper impact on our development as practitioners just by the mere

> pressure of having to be fully accountable for our patient's health.

>

> In my case, I do not have anyone that I can call for help. Other than

> my training, my books, this list, Al Stone's list, and the various

> sites on tcm, I'm alone. Sad, but it's true. I'm not by any means

> feeling sorry for myself. It's just the way it is, and I can deal with

> it. Very frustrating at times. Nonetheless, I'm growing as I scrounge

> for info. No time to be spoon-fed. This is what I meant by the above.

>

> > There is not a single facility in the

> > United States that I know of that presents

> > the kind of clinical opportunities that

> > are available in a hospital like the one

> > attached to CDUTCM. Nowhere close.

> >

>

> This is too bad and hopefully it will change in the future.

>

>

> > >

> > > Also, I remember one of our teachers talking about the fact that

> > >many TCM students end up in TCM schools because their grades did >

> >not qualify them to go into other academic fields. So they had to

> > >settle for TCM school.

>

> > By the graduate level, the attitude that

> > anybody is " settling " for an education in

> > TCM is very rare in my experience. My general

> > impression of those students that I can to

> > know is that they are highly motivated, curious,

> > and dedicated to learning the science and the

> > art of traditional medicine. The growth of

> > interest in the subject internationally has

> > had many effects in China. But certainly one

> > of them is to bring to it the lustre that

> > accompanies anything in China these days that

> > enhances one's likeliehood of encountering

> > international opportunities.

>

> Are you saying here that the possibility of traveling is

> is a factor for some students to study TCM?

>

> > > While here in the West, we go to TCM schools because

> > > we want to. I think that in the long run this makes a big

> > >difference in clinic.

>

>

> > An interesting point. I'd like to read

> > more of your thoughts on this. Again, it doesn't

> > match my experience over the years. You seem

> > to be suggesting that the doctors of Chinese

> > medicine trained in the States have some sort

> > of higher motivation than those in China, if

> > that's a fair characterization of your statement.

> >

> > And I don't agree with that.

>

> While trying not to make any sweeping generalizations, yes, that's

> what I mean.

>

> > >

> > > I recall many of our young teachers quickly quote book knowledge

> > >about this or that disease. Or they talked about their " lao yi

> > >sheng " or " old doctor " who did this or that but never really had

> > >treated the disorders themselves. Of course, many patients were

> > >impressed by the fact that these doctors had *worked* in hospitals

> > >in China and had such great teachers. Their real experience,

> > >however, was minimal at best.

>

> > I'm not sure what you're point is here.

> > It seems pretty obvious that younger

> > folks have far less experience than

> > the doctors who have trained them and

> > whose advice they largely follow.

>

> By way of analogy, I'll point to young girls in my country where at

> the tender age of 9 to 12 take on maternal responsibilities towards

> their younger siblings so that mom can go to work. No doubt these

> girls miss out academically, however, they mature and become more

> responsible and experienced due to circumstances.

>

> > And let's not forget the fact that Chinese

> > students enter TCM college being able to

> > pick up their Language of the Medical Classics

> > textbooks and dive more or less directly into

> > this study without having to first become

> > familiar with the Chinese language, as do

> > non-Chinese students of Chinese medicine.

>

> Can't argue with that. Thanks for your input.

>

> Fernando

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Also, I remember one of our teachers talking about the fact that many > TCM students end up in TCM schools because their grades did not > qualify them to go into other academic fields. So they had to settle > for TCM school.

 

 

>>>>>>My experience is from the early 1980's and at least were I worked the younger BA level TCM practitioners were much more interested in western medicine than the older Dr. and sometimes it looked like they were more interested in western med than in TCM. Their knowledge of modern western medicine however was quite poor in many respects. Their surgical skills were quite good because of lack of equipment and therefore relaying on hands. However they frequently used out of date medical intervention that at the time were considered not appropriate in the US. They used very powerful antibiotics like candy. I am talking drugs like gent which is toxic and dangerous for patients with simple upper respiratory infections which many times may have been viral.

The younger parishitioners quite frequently had to be primary on very complex cases. Like in US there were quite a verity of interest and talent. In general their status was not considered as high as the MD's. The hospital I worked at was a TCM municipal hospital with several thousand outpatient visits a day. Some of the information and opinions was influenced by an old English trained MD that was one of the MD's in charge of setting up western training in Guangzhou TCM collage. He definitely did not think the level of science at the TCM collage was the same as in the western med schools. And also did not think the students were as smart.

Alon

[Guest guest]

PCOM requires 60 credits as prereqs, which is equal to two years of college. I think most schools have this requirement.

>>>Only in west

[Guest guest]

Nhung Ta,

 

Also, our language we

>talk about Oriental theory we could feel better than English, because

>our theory base on feeling more than scientific, however the definition

>is to high to find out by scientific, but I think may be in 20-50years

>the scientises will find out how it works

 

The science of complexity that Ken has referred to on this list is on the

path to being able to describe what I think you mean, based on my own

intimate relationship with Chinese (I only know 1 sentence in Vietnamese).

And philosopher- scientists like Ken Wilber, Fritjof Capra, Allan Combs, and

others are helping to open science up to ideas transcend the linear

perspective that makes it such a challenge for us Westerners to grasp basic

OM theory. I think your projections are right on!

 

Take care,

Sonya

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Meiji requires a bachelor degree, plus biology (60 hrs), chemistry (60 hrs),

psychology (45 hrs), and physics (45 hrs).

 

 

 

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

[Guest guest]

I have always found it interesting that one could earn a Masters of Science degree in Traditional Oriental Medicine with never having a bachelors *in anything*! I do know that some Psychology programs allow one to jump from a bachelors to a PhD. I suppose if TCM schools required a bachelors that there would not be as many students.

 

Teresa

-

 

Jody Herriott

Sunday, March 24, 2002 8:59 AM

Re: Re: education in china

 

When I was looking into schools, some like OCOM and the Seattle schools required required biology, botany, anatomy/physiology as prerequisites. The school I ended up attending, SWAC, offered them in the program if you didn't already have the credits. And 2 years of undergraduate were required.

 

-

1

Saturday, March 23, 2002 6:39 PM

Re: education in china

, "" <@o...> wrote:> I don't recall PCOM (or most other schools) actually having any> pre-req's.. The sciences you mention, I thought, were incorporated into> the (American) programs. I didn't even think that most schools required> an undergraduate...? PCOM requires 60 credits as prereqs, which is equal to two years of college. I think most schools have this requirement. OCOM requires 90 credits, I think and they must specifically be in areas like science,math, etc.I have heard numerous times that by> the 2nd year they (Chinese) are memorizing good portions of classic> texts i.e. SHL ? IS this true?I have heard they memorize the clauses, but do not study commentary or modern applications at the bachelor's level at most schoolsToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.