Guest guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 , Sharon Weizenbaum < sweiz@r...> wrote: 1. There are references to > quickening the blood in order to generate the new > 2. enriching the blood is necessary in order for it to > move, further unifying the concepts of quickening and nourishing. > 3. Harmonizing the Blood (He Xue) which is a treatment principle that unifies > these concepts. Sharon I am familiar with all three of these concepts and actually have discussed each of these ideas with students either in class or clinic over the past few weeks. But in my understanding, these represent situations where both blood xu and blood stasis are simultaneously present. In which case, I might utilize any one of these ideas above as a treatment strategy. In case one, the vacuity is due to stasis, thus moving stasis is the correct principle. This is still somewhat different than saying that blood moving is a method of supplementation. Herbs like san qi still do not directly supplement blood like shu di huang (though blood harmonizing herbs like dang gui do both). New blood is generated as a byproduct of restoring free flow, not by directly supplementing the blood with a nourishing medicinal. My original question had to do with whether san qi actually functions as a supplement in the sense that ren shen or shu di do. Clearly it is used as a longevity herb. But the question still remains in my mind whether I would choose this herb in the absence of blood stasis. And it is on this point that I think defining huo as a subset of bu becomes problematic. If san qi supplements BY moving, then it is not a supplement because it it is not indicated in vacuity WITHOUT stasis. The fact that it may treat blood vacuity WITH stasis doesn't change anything in my mind, as I have always used such herbs for the purposes you list above. Finally, since this herb is used as a sub for ren shen, according to some posts, I am asking about it being used to supplement qi, not blood. None of the concepts you list apply to qi supplementation, only blood. So san qi is either a supplement in its own right (it supplements IN ADDITION to, NOT MERELY as a byproduct of moving) or its use as a longevity herb is due solely to its stasis moving effect with no direct supplementation. My concern, as always, is that students or novices will mistake this idea as license to move blood whenever there is blood vacuity, even without stasis. I don't think that is what you advocate at all. Are you saying that san qi should be classed as a blood harmonizer, having inherent supplemental properties or for that matter, that hong hua has this action (supplementing)? Even so, would you use these herbs in the absence of stasis? Or is the hemostatic effect of san qi a reflection of it being inherently supplemental? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 On 4/7/02 4:15 AM, " " wrote: > If moving the blood (huo xue) is a subset of bu (supplement), then I > am thoroughly cinfused. In the generic way you are speaking, this may > be true. But in the narrow technical use within TCM, I believe it is > incorrect. Most herbs that huo xue (move blood) can cause blood or qi > vacuity. Their net effect is not all to supplement, but the opposite, > which is to disperse. Their use may result in less qi, not more. By > your logic, all treatment strategies can be construed as supplemental. > when we clear dampheat,the spleen is disencumbered, thus its function > is improved, but I wouldn't call the strategy supplementation. I > think your description of the relationship between these terms > obscures their use in clinic. > I can see your point Todd because it seems that the Huo Xue method is essentially a dispersing method. On the other hand there are discussions of the method having supplementing characteristics. I am referring to some of the discussions in the Gyn book I am translating. There are references to quickening the blood in order to generate the new again and again. Blood stasis takes up the space in the vessels that should be for fresh, nourishing blood. Liu Feng Wu speaks the unified concept of quickening the blood and nourishing the blood in his Gyn text (blue poppy pg. 75) " Therefore, in terms of the concept of blood vacuity, in clinic, one must decide whether it pertains to insufficiency of the material substance or a disturbance in its function.....It is generally thought that quickening the blood can transform stasis and that dispelling stasis can engender the new...This is because only if both the generalized and local blood circulation is normal and new blood gradually enriches and engenders can the vessels and passageways be full and exuberant. " He goes on to say that enriching the blood is necessary in order for it to move, further unifying the concepts of quickening and nourishing. My teacher, Dr. Qui, has a section in her book about what she calls Harmonizing the Blood (He Xue) which is a treatment principle that unifies these concepts. It involves using medicinals such as Ji Xue Teng and Dan Shen as well as lower doses of stronger quickening agents such as Hong Hua, Yi Mu Cao and Ze Lan. Liu Feng Wu is similar in his idea that using small doses of stronger blood quickeners, nourishes the blood. In our classes here at White Pine Healing Arts, we also speak of improving the quality of the Blood, another way to unify the concepts and to translate Dr. Qiu's concept of " Harmonizing into a more understandable language. In our clinic, we have found it to be an indispensable concept. It clarifies rather than obscures. In terms of San Qi in particular, Dr. Qiu, and therefore I use it precisely in the way described above. Www.whitepinehealingarts.com I will be interested in other's experience of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 Ken, <<I'm doing some workshops on the use of medicinal herbs in external applications for a wide range of conditions at a couple of conferences in Europe in May and June, which is why I can't be at the CHA conference that's upcoming. And working with patients and students, these kinds of questions naturally come up and hopefully get answered during the ebb and flow of a day's work.>> I have read your postings with great interest. I am currently based in San Diego, but I am from the UK and would be interested in your workshops in Europe. Could say more about them please. And do you ever have workshops in Southern CA? Salma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 > > In case one, the vacuity is due to stasis, thus moving stasis is > the correct principle. This is still somewhat different than saying > that blood moving is a method of supplementation. Herbs like > san qi still do not directly supplement blood like shu di huang > (though blood harmonizing herbs like dang gui do both). New > blood is generated as a byproduct of restoring free flow, not by > directly supplementing the blood with a nourishing medicinal. > What do you mean when you say " supplmenting " ? Are you thinking in terms of traditional Chinese anatomy and physiology? Or are you reasoning on the basis of a modern biomedical understanding of the body? In other words, when you say that san1 qi1 does not directly supplement the blood with a nourishing medicinal, what does this imply in terms of the dynamics involved? What is " direct supplementation " as you seem to be comparing it to some other sort of supplementation? Do these implied differences reflect a traditional Chinese notion or is this a synthesis of understandings? If it's the former, should it be pegged to a Chinese term? If it's the latter, can you walk me through the structures, mechanisms and dynamics involved that differentiate " direct supplementation " from either supplementation in general or some other kind or aspect of supplementation? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 Salma, > Ken, > > <<I'm doing some workshops on the use > of medicinal herbs in external applications > for a wide range of conditions at a couple > of conferences in Europe in May and June, > which is why I can't be at the CHA conference > that's upcoming. And working with patients > and students, these kinds of questions > naturally come up and hopefully get > answered during the ebb and flow of > a day's work.>> > > I have read your postings with great interest. I am currently based in San Diego, but I am from the UK and would be interested in your workshops in Europe. Could say more about them please. And do you ever have workshops in Southern CA? I'll be lecturing and doing clinical workshops in Rothenburg, Germany at the conference there from May 7-12. The topics include: formulas for external application; tai4 ji2 and massage therapy, i.e. how they interrelate; differentiation and treatment of headaches; joint rehabilitation; principles of physical assessment and diagnosis in massage therapy; and qi4 and its implications in Chinese medical theory. After that I'll be doing clinical workshops in Hamburg for a week or so. I'm not sure how these are being d. They may not be open to folks from outside of the teaching clinic where they'll be given. In June, I'll be covering a similar lineup at the conference in Amersfoort, Holland. The subject of Daoist alchemy is also on my slate there. And I'll be giving a workhsop in Maryland on the 21st of this month on Daoist sexual alchemy and its importance in Chinese medical theory and practice. I'll be speaking and doing a workshop at the PCOM symposium this year in San Diego. The lecture subject is qi4 and Chinese medical theory. The workshop is on Daoist sex magic. I don't have anything else scheduled at the moment in Southern California this year. Please contact me off the list if you want more info. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > In other words, when you say that san1 qi1 does > not directly supplement the blood with a nourishing > medicinal, what does this imply in terms of the > dynamics involved? maybe another example would clarify my point. If not, you will have to take up this discussion with clinicians who are also translators. If a patient has blood stasis due to qi xu and I give qi supplement herbs, is this a dispersing therapy because supplementing the qi can lead to increased blood movement? It does not directly move the blood, but increases the qi to do so. Herbs that directly move the blood do not increase qi production. they may make the blood less sticky or may draw upon existing resevoirs of qi to do this, but they do not increase qi. the net result may be movement, but the correct choice depends on the correct diagnostic priority. If one uses herbs to supplement qi when moving blood should be prioritized, then results will be unsatisfactory. this distinction between these concepts is critical in clinic and it has been taught to me by chinese teachers. It is not my own western idea. If this is unclear or seems incorrect to anyone besides Ken, please chime in. But I am either confused or unable to express this any clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 > maybe another example would clarify my point. If not, you will > have to take up this discussion with clinicians who are also > translators. If a patient has blood stasis due to qi xu and I give qi > supplement herbs, is this a dispersing therapy because > supplementing the qi can lead to increased blood movement? It > does not directly move the blood, but increases the qi to do so. > Herbs that directly move the blood do not increase qi production. > they may make the blood less sticky or may draw upon existing > resevoirs of qi to do this, but they do not increase qi. the net > result may be movement, but the correct choice depends on the > correct diagnostic priority. If one uses herbs to supplement qi > when moving blood should be prioritized, then results will be > unsatisfactory. this distinction between these concepts is critical > in clinic and it has been taught to me by chinese teachers. It is > not my own western idea. If this is unclear or seems incorrect to > anyone besides Ken, please chime in. But I am either confused > or unable to express this any clearer. This example doesn't really clarify the issue for me. In fact, it further confuses it, as now we're in the realm of differentiation between qi4 and blood categories, and I don't think that it's the same issue as trying to get a handle on the implied dynamics of " supplementation " and how these relate to the terms used to describe them. I didn't ask the questions I did before in order to say that I thought what you were saying was incorrect. I asked the questions because I was interested in knowing how you were thinking about it. I don't think it's incorrect to think in a syncretic mode that mixes Chinese and Western ideas, but I think that it's important to be clear about it if that's what one is doing. I wasn't really even trying to suggest that that's what you're doing, I just wondered what the difference was between " direct supplementation " and whatever other kind of supplementation it was being contrasted with. It seemed to me that you had in mind some sort of mechanism or dynamics that were taking place in " direct supplementation " that I didn't quite understand, which is why I asked you to describe what you had in mind. Like you, I'd welcome input from others. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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