Channels, Herb Tropism and what needs to be taught in holistic medicine

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

I am crossposting this to other AP/herbal lists because this thread is

of interest to them also.

 

I am only relatively recent newcomer to (raw student of) CHM but

please permit me to make a few comments:

 

" dragon90405 " <yulong Re: The nonsense about

channel entry - gui1 jing1] wrote:

> re Unschuld ... to question / reject the notion of Channel entry.

> This also from History of Ideas, p. 210: " Among others, Hsu

> Ta-ch'un sought to refute one of the most important innovations of

> Sung-Chin-Yuan medicine, namely Chang Yuan- su's doctrine that

> medicinal drugs reach the intended locations through specific

> transportation Channels. Hsu termed such notions 'nonsense'

> (ch'uan-tso). "

 

> Your [Todd's] and Bob Flaws' comments about the flavors of

> medicinals sent me looking into various sources to see whether or

> not there are any sources in the classical literature to support

> such a view. Haven't come up with much. The more I think about, the

> more I start to believe that I may just not understand what your

> point is. Ken

 

We need NOT accept as literal truth the accuracy of every dogma /

teaching, whether from TCM or western models! That said, we must

remember that many TCM concepts are useful as LEARNING AIDS

to help us to remember complex relationships.

 

Just as one can question the reality of Channels, one can question

the concept of Channel Entry. So what if the Channels do not exist

as a physical " plumbing or ducting " infrastructure? IMO the Channel-

Organ-Function Concept [and its relationships to scars and other

symptomatology] has been verified well in clinical practice.Channel

theory is a most important concept for detailed study by budding

acupuncturists and TCM herbalists. IMO, we MUST teach that in the

same way as pilots need to know about non-existent (but practically

useful) meridfians on the globe.

 

We can view the concept of " Channel Entry " [Herbal Channel-Organ

Tropism] in the same way. One need NOT accept that specific

energies/metabolites of specific herbs track preferentially through

non-existent Channels! But it can be most useful in clinical practice

to know that certain herbs have marked effects on specific organs &

symptoms. That is what I understand of Channel-Organ Tropisms.

For example:

Baishao LV, SP;

Banxia LU, SP, ST;

Bohe LU, LV;

Chaihu GB, LV (?? PC, TH);

Chenpi LU, SP, ST;

Chishao LV, SP;

Zhigancao All 12, esp HT, LU, SP, ST; etc.

 

> ...the broad context of considering interactions of medicinals very

> much includes such combinations of herbs based not upon any theory

> whatsoever but upon accumulated clinical experience that shows that

> medicinal X seems to have positive results with condition Y. ... So

> when we go about comparing modern methods to traditional methods,

> we should make clear as precisely as possible which earlier

> methodologies we have in mind for the comparison. I believe this

> kind of precision is particularly important when it comes to

> research, both in the evaluation of extant research literature and

> the design of future research. Ken

 

It is almost an impossible labyrinth to sort out herb-herb (not to

mention herb-allopathic drug) interactions without making a " leap of

faith " . This leap must (?) be based on classical and modern texts,

intuition, and personal experience!

 

As one with 37 years of professional [vet] scientific research under

my belt, I know how hard it is to do good research on multiple

interactions. If one were to begin MASSIVE international research

on these issues today, it would take multiple dedicated and highly

staffed institutions decades of years and billions of dollars to

untangle the possibilities!

 

wrote:

 

> ...this question brings into focus the way we look at patients and

> the methods and theories by which we treat them. The Jin-Yuan

> developments of systematic correspondence, and the four schools it

> produced, greatly enlarged the body of Chinese medical theory,

> increasing the nuance and detail in which we view patients,

> especially with herbal medicine. While sometimes the authors

> disagreed vehemently, what they discovered opened up new tools and

> pathways for generations of physicians. I don't think we should

> discard anything from the purgation school of Zhang Zhe-he, the

> yin supplementation school of Zhu Dan-xi, spleen stomach school of

> Li Dong-yuan, or cool-cold school of Liu Wan-su. Different

> practitioners, according to their training, temperment, where they

> live, or the era within which they practice, will be attracted to

> different theories. They will work with certain kinds of patients

> who fit with their approach to practice. Some practitioners will

> be more empirical, like Todo Yoshimatsu in Japan who abandoned

> nearly all theory, and practiced a more empirical approach that was

> based on the purgative school and abdominal diagnosis. Others will

> create elaborate bodies of theory to explain what they see in the

> phenomenon of human health and sickness. To me, it doesn't matter

> so much. I think the history of Chinese medicine is fascinating

> and complex, and I am continuing the journey of study and

> practice. " The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon " . We

> are human beings, conceptual beings, who communicate with words and

> theories. We need the various maps developed in all systems of

> medicine to understand and develop strategies of treatment. But in

> the end, these are maps of the terrain, not the terrain itself.

> ...The structures of the body may appear more 'real' than the

> Channels and connecting vessels, but they are still seen through

> conceptual glasses.

 

I agree - see the story of the Three Blind Men & the Elephant. On

the problems of subjective versus " objective " fact, see also the book

by Fritjof Capra " Uncommon Wisdom: Conversations with

Remarkable People " .

 

We all " stand in our own two shoes " . In choosing the components of

the best programme to treat a client, we must do our best. But no

two of us will design exactly the same programme! There are many

ways to climb a mountain but all [fit] climbers can hope to reach the

top.

 

Medicine is as much (if not moreso) an ART as a science. IMO,

Love and Yi (Focused Consciousness / Intention) are crucial to the

best clinical success.

 

Z'ev again:

> A broad view of medicine requires continuing scholarship and

> exposure to a wide range of theories. It allows flexibility and

> openness, and a more spontaneous response to the ever-changing

> manifestations of human health and disease.

 

Yes again! Medicine, like every other aspect of reality is changing,

hopefully for the better. Old ideas that do not work will be replaced

by new ones that do. Whether these ideas come from east or west

is irrelevant, so long as they give good results at an affordable cost.

 

But we must be wary of " academic research " . As said by others,

many expert researchers are anything but expert practitioners! In

the end, whether they work with humans or animals, the GPs must

pick up the pieces and deal with most patients in the field. What the

GP DOES often [if not usually] differs from what the academic or

researcher SAYS to do.

 

Z'ev again:

> ... three years is not enough time to get all of this stuff into

> students' heads, hearts and hands. However, I feel even more

> strongly that, for now, this is where they are going to get the

> most exposure to the breadth and depth of Chinese medicine. If

> they don't hear about spleen-stomach theory here or Nan Jing five

> phase acumoxatherapy, where will they get it? Teaching materia

> medica merely as memorizing the Bensky, Yeung or OHAI texts is like

> a Reader's Digest version. I think we need to allow for exposure to

> the total picture as much as possible, so that there is less

> confusion when prescriptions use ingredients in 'non-standard'

> ways. This is why material from the Shen nong ben cao/Divine

> Farmer's Materia Medica, or the Great Dictionary of Chinese

> Medicinals/Zhong yao da ci dian is important. It shows that there

> are differing views and information on Chinese medicinals, ...

> studying these helps develop flexible thinking. The use of Channel

> entry and flavors helps us get a broader view of how medicinals

> work.

 

Right on! I have been studying (and using) acupuncture in animals /

people for 28 years, and I am still learning. Medicine [even a small

aspect of it] is a lifetime's work. And when we die, we still will not

have scratched the surface! I doubt if anyone could hope to be

really on top of medicine. For example, just one source of info

[PubMed Medline] has 11 million titles, covering probably 55 million

pages of text.

 

Add in the other mountains of data on psychology, hypnosis,

biofeedback, and complementary literature [TCM, Ayurveda,

homeopathy, chiro/osteo, etc], and one will have some idea of the

impossibility of really knowing all that one may need to know on

medicine!

 

> Recently, a student took me to task for not basing case history

> analysis on (solely) major complaint and the ten questions, or

> finding one single pattern to cover complex cases. This attitude

> supposes that the ten questions are the cornerstone of the

> questioning diagnosis. . . yes, they are there, but not

> necessarily all used in every case, or in the same order. We must

> be careful not to create a rigid, arbitrary entity of medicine by

> limited access to information. Z'ev

 

If one really wanted to get the full spiritual-psychological-somatic

background of each client, the history-taking alone would take a

systematic questioning through thousands of questions.

 

Then, the often ignored questions of lifestyle, stress-coping

mechaninms and basic nutrition need to be addressed.

 

How many CHM practitioners know basic min-vit nutrition? Without

looking it up, how many know the recommeded RDA for, say,

iodine, selenium, copper and vitamins A, D3 and E? Even if we

know this, how can we assess if the client is ingesting trace-

minerals and vitamins near the RDAs?

 

IMO the pursuit of a workable format for holistic spiritual-

psychological and somatic medicine is a hopeless but fantastic

dream. Like many Irish compatriots before me, I seek Utopia. I love

the dream of an effective medicine for all [humans and animals] who

need it. Before the darkness of my coffin puts an end to my

dreaming in this world, I want at least some of it to be realised.

 

IMO, the medicine of the future will be rooted in the past [using the

best concepts of east & west] but will be unrecognisable as coming

from any one existing " mainstream school " . IMO, the problem for

teachers today is WHAT broad but sound concepts they should

teach to students in such a short time of formal tuition, and HOW

they should teach them to maximal effect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

>

> We need NOT accept as literal truth the accuracy of every dogma /

> teaching, whether from TCM or western models!

 

I completely agree. Many of the dogma and

teachings contained in the Chinese medical

literature are mutually exclusive. The point

that I'm making here is that we really ought

to have the data prior to deciding what to

accept and what to reject.

 

That said, we must

> remember that many TCM concepts are useful as LEARNING AIDS

> to help us to remember complex relationships.

 

Agreed. And acquiring the basics of the

language also results in access to aids

to learning the more specialized knowledge.

>

> Just as one can question the reality of Channels, one can question

> the concept of Channel Entry. So what if the Channels do not exist

> as a physical " plumbing or ducting " infrastructure? IMO the Channel-

> Organ-Function Concept [and its relationships to scars and other

> symptomatology] has been verified well in clinical practice.Channel

> theory is a most important concept for detailed study by budding

> acupuncturists and TCM herbalists. IMO, we MUST teach that in the

> same way as pilots need to know about non-existent (but practically

> useful) meridfians on the globe.

 

Yes, and let's also teach them what qi4 is.

 

> It is almost an impossible labyrinth to sort out herb-herb (not to

> mention herb-allopathic drug) interactions without making a " leap

of

> faith " . This leap must (?) be based on classical and modern texts,

> intuition, and personal experience!

>

> As one with 37 years of professional [vet] scientific research

under

> my belt, I know how hard it is to do good research on multiple

> interactions. If one were to begin MASSIVE international research

> on these issues today, it would take multiple dedicated and highly

> staffed institutions decades of years and billions of dollars to

> untangle the possibilities!

 

Agreed, again. As the research budgets

grow, the work will be done just the

way such work always gets done...one

bit at a time. The continued acceleration

in the rate at which the bits can be

processed promises (threatens?) to speed

the whole process up. But regardless of

the speed at which it happens, the quality

of the work done depends on the degree

to which those who are doing all the

processing of all the data understand

what everything means.

>

[...]

>

> If one really wanted to get the full spiritual-psychological-

somatic

> background of each client, the history-taking alone would take a

> systematic questioning through thousands of questions.

 

Certainly one can ask an endless series

of questions, but one well trained in

discerning and differentiating patterns

need not go to such lengths. It is possible

using the tools of traditional diagnostics

to perform according to one of the most

advanced axioms of information science:

use a large amount of data as a small

amount of data.

 

 

> IMO the pursuit of a workable format for holistic spiritual-

> psychological and somatic medicine is a hopeless but fantastic

> dream. Like many Irish compatriots before me, I seek Utopia. I love

> the dream of an effective medicine for all [humans and animals] who

> need it. Before the darkness of my coffin puts an end to my

> dreaming in this world, I want at least some of it to be realised.

 

It's a wonderful dream, and it brings

to mind the story by Delmore Schwartz,

In Dreams Begin Responsibilities. Your

reference to the mass of data that

constitutes the knowledgebase of

medicine suggests how extensive the

responsibilities are of those who

establish themselves as practitioners,

researchers, teachers, and students

of this subject.

 

 

>

> IMO, the medicine of the future will be rooted in the past [using

the

> best concepts of east & west] but will be unrecognisable as coming

> from any one existing " mainstream school " . IMO, the problem for

> teachers today is WHAT broad but sound concepts they should

> teach to students in such a short time of formal tuition, and HOW

> they should teach them to maximal effect.

>

 

I've been exploring the situation in

Chiense medical education internationally

and one of the common denominators that

I've noticed as a weakness everywhere it

exists is the lack of clinical tutoring.

Students, interns, and professionals in

practice need someone with whom they can

sort through the vagaries of clinical

actualities and use them to focus in

on the correct application of the theoretical

tools. This is overlooked in many, perhaps

most schools.

 

Of course, the other thing that is largely

ignored is the literature of the subject.

One widespread attitude is to more or less

pretend that it just doesn't exist or

that its existence doesn't concern us

because it is old and foreign to us.

But that leaves us in the questionable

situation of dispensing with material

that we have not adequately investigated.

 

This approach runs contrary to general

trends in Chinese and Western medicine

alike, as the accumulation of extensive

literatures in both subjects suggests.

 

It's time that we build in access to

the literature for all members of the

profession, and this too needs to be

taught.

 

Ken