Fear versus Fright

[Guest guest]

Does anybody know the difference between fear and fright as internal evils?

 

I've been teaching that fear is an emotion and fright is a sudden

neurological response.

 

Anybody know for sure what the difference is?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Al,

 

This is what I know about your question from the CM literature I

have read in doing the Chinese Medical Psychiatry book: Fright is

caused by a stimuli that is actually present in the patient's

environment, such as a loud noise, a snake in the grass, a narrowly

avoided accident, etc. Fear is a response to a situation that has not

yet occurred. I'm afraid of falling from a high place even though I am

not yet falling, or I'm afraid of the possibility of a terrorist

attack. Fear causes the qi to descend (xia), while fright causes the

qi to becomes chaotic (luan).

 

Bob

 

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> Does anybody know the difference between fear and fright as internal

evils?

>

> I've been teaching that fear is an emotion and fright is a sudden

> neurological response.

>

> Anybody know for sure what the difference is?

>

> --

> Al Stone L.Ac.

> <AlStone@B...>

> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

.. Fear causes the qi to descend (xia), while fright causes the

> qi to becomes chaotic (luan).

>

> Bob

 

I believe this can be related to the fight or flight.

 

Teresa

>

> , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> > Does anybody know the difference between fear and fright as internal

> evils?

> >

> > I've been teaching that fear is an emotion and fright is a sudden

> > neurological response.

> >

> > Anybody know for sure what the difference is?

> >

> > --

[Guest guest]

Although it is common information, I present it in response for what it is worth. In Five Element theory Fear is the emotion that is related to the Kidney/Bladder (Water element), and fright or shock is related to the Heart/Small Intestine (Fire). It makes sense that qi descends with Fear (anticipation of discomfort) and that it would effect the Kidney-stress and Bladder-weakness. Fright is a more immediate emotion that disturbs the Heart Shen, and so would scatter the Qi.

 

Marc Till

[Guest guest]

The fear that you are referring to, seems a healthy type of fear.

Afterall, we're all programmed from early in life to recognize the

danger of falling from high places. Likewise, if we lived in Palestine

or Israel, we would have a justifiable reason to fear terrorism and

being vigilant would be the call of the day.

 

Maybe it's a prolonged period of being in state of fear that would

become pathological and cause the qi to descend. No? And, where would

paranoia fit in this fear issue?

 

Regards,

 

~Fernando

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Al,

>

> This is what I know about your question from the CM literature I

> have read in doing the Chinese Medical Psychiatry book: Fright is

> caused by a stimuli that is actually present in the patient's

> environment, such as a loud noise, a snake in the grass, a narrowly

> avoided accident, etc. Fear is a response to a situation that has

> not yet occurred. I'm afraid of falling from a high place even >

though I am not yet falling, or I'm afraid of the possibility of a >

terrorist attack. Fear causes the qi to descend (xia), while fright >

causes the qi to becomes chaotic (luan).

>

> Bob,

[Guest guest]

There is no a priori ascription of positive or negative qualities to

any of the seven affects. Fear and fright are both " healthy " or at

least useful in certain situations. All seven affects are described in

the CM literature as natural responses to external and internal

stimuli. The seven affects only become pathological when they are

excessive or prolonged. In other words, when the changes in the

movement of qi they cause are excessive or prolonged. When they are

not very strong and transient in nature, the changes in the flow of qi

associated with the affect are also mild and transient in nature.

 

In the CM psychiatric literature, paranoia is simply a type of fear

and is dealt with as such. There is chapter on fear and fright in

James Lake's and my Chinese Medical Psychiatry.

 

Bob

 

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> The fear that you are referring to, seems a healthy type of fear.

> Afterall, we're all programmed from early in life to recognize the

> danger of falling from high places. Likewise, if we lived in

Palestine

> or Israel, we would have a justifiable reason to fear terrorism and

> being vigilant would be the call of the day.

>

> Maybe it's a prolonged period of being in state of fear that would

> become pathological and cause the qi to descend. No? And, where

would

> paranoia fit in this fear issue?

>

> Regards,

>

> ~Fernando

>

> , " pemachophel2001 "

> <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > Al,

> >

> > This is what I know about your question from the CM literature I

> > have read in doing the Chinese Medical Psychiatry book: Fright is

> > caused by a stimuli that is actually present in the patient's

> > environment, such as a loud noise, a snake in the grass, a

narrowly

> > avoided accident, etc. Fear is a response to a situation that has

> > not yet occurred. I'm afraid of falling from a high place even >

> though I am not yet falling, or I'm afraid of the possibility of a

>

> terrorist attack. Fear causes the qi to descend (xia), while fright

>

> causes the qi to becomes chaotic (luan).

> >

> > Bob,

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

Got it!

 

~Fernando

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> There is no a priori ascription of positive or negative qualities to

> any of the seven affects. Fear and fright are both " healthy " or at

> least useful in certain situations. All seven affects are described

in

> the CM literature as natural responses to external and internal

> stimuli. The seven affects only become pathological when they are

> excessive or prolonged. In other words, when the changes in the

> movement of qi they cause are excessive or prolonged. When they are

> not very strong and transient in nature, the changes in the flow of

qi

> associated with the affect are also mild and transient in nature.

>

> In the CM psychiatric literature, paranoia is simply a type of fear

> and is dealt with as such. There is chapter on fear and fright in

> James Lake's and my Chinese Medical Psychiatry.

>

> Bob

>

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> > The fear that you are referring to, seems a healthy type of fear.

> > Afterall, we're all programmed from early in life to recognize the

> > danger of falling from high places. Likewise, if we lived in

> Palestine

> > or Israel, we would have a justifiable reason to fear terrorism

and

> > being vigilant would be the call of the day.

> >

> > Maybe it's a prolonged period of being in state of fear that would

> > become pathological and cause the qi to descend. No? And, where

> would

> > paranoia fit in this fear issue?

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > ~Fernando

> >

> > , " pemachophel2001 "

> > <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > > Al,

> > >

> > > This is what I know about your question from the CM literature I

> > > have read in doing the Chinese Medical Psychiatry book: Fright

is

> > > caused by a stimuli that is actually present in the patient's

> > > environment, such as a loud noise, a snake in the grass, a

> narrowly

> > > avoided accident, etc. Fear is a response to a situation that

has

> > > not yet occurred. I'm afraid of falling from a high place even

>

> > though I am not yet falling, or I'm afraid of the possibility of a

 

> >

> > terrorist attack. Fear causes the qi to descend (xia), while

fright

> >

> > causes the qi to becomes chaotic (luan).

> > >

> > > Bob,

[Guest guest]

Al,

 

> Does anybody know the difference between fear and fright as

internal evils?

>

> I've been teaching that fear is an emotion and fright is a sudden

> neurological response.

 

I'm not sure what difference you are

noticing between emotion and neurological

response. The typical associations of

fear (kong3) and fright (jing1) are

matters of organ and to a certain

extent severity of the stimulus and

the reponse to it.

 

Fear affects the kidney and causes

the qi4 to sink. There's a typical

range of physiological responses

associated with this.

 

Fright affects the liver and causes

the qi4 to become disordered and

the shen2 to be disquiet.

 

There are other terms that refer to

comparable patterns of stimuli and

responses as well. Even the notion

of aversion, as to wind or cold,

can be considered as a kind of fear.

And indeed the Chinese word that

we translate as " aversion " also

means fear, pa4.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Fright affects the liver and causesthe qi4 to become disordered and the shen2 to be disquiet.>>>I thought fright effects kidney, liver and heart

alon

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

I agree, refinement of terminology certainly is the key to defining a specific condition. I was truly being simplistic in my post- as every emotion can manifest in relation to each organ system.

 

There is also a point to be made in reference to one of the posts that "that fear is an emotion and fright is a sudden neurological response". Terminology again perhaps- when is an emotion a neurological response (or is it only defined as a hormonal activator)? There is the idea of the continuum of illness from the "emotional" to the "physical", and the question of where does illness start- and why different people react differently to even external pernicious influences. As a beginner in the study of Chinese medicine I am only beginning to get my mind around these issues.

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Marc,

 

Your point is a good one about fear damaging the kidneys and

fright damaging the heart. However, according to all Chinese sources

of which I am aware (and I put in 18 months researching just these

issues when we did our Chinese Medical Psychiatry book), fright

(jing1) does not scatter the qi. Sorrow (bei1) scatters or dissiptates

(san3) the qi. Fright causes the qi to becomes chaotic (luan3). In my

experience as both a teacher and a clinician, this is an extremely

good example of where terminological rectitude is important.

 

When Chinese say that fright causes the qi to become chaotic, they

mean that the qi mechanism becomes dysregulated (bu tiao). This means

that the four movements of the qi (upbearing, downbearing, floating,

and sinking) become dysregulated, resulting in upward counterflow and

downward slippage or desertion. If counterflow is severe enough to

result in reversal (jue2), there may even be syncope or loss of

consciousness. Dissipation or scattering on the other hand implies

drainage and dispersion leading to vacuity. These are categorically

different disease mechanisms within Chinese medicine, and have been

since at least the time of the Nei Jing (Inner Classic). In other

words, this is not any new, revisionist teaching.

 

As an addendum, I would also like to add that, in my experience, it is

extremely important not to overemphasize the teachings on the seven

affects and their five phase correspondences. There are plenty of

other instances in the Chinese medical literature where famous,

universally respected authorities have suggested different

correspondences. For instance, some have said that, " Worry pertains to

the lungs " (not the spleen). Others have said that, " Worry, anxiety,

and thinking damage the heart, " again, not the spleen. Therefore, I

think we have to use these teachings flexibily, testing their

applicability in each individual instance. I have definite case

histories where excessive worry has damaged the heart (leading to CAD,

dysrrhythmia, and ECG ST depression) without marked spleen vacuity

symptoms.

 

Bob

 

, TillMH@a... wrote:

> Although it is common information, I present it in response for what

it is

> worth. In Five Element theory Fear is the emotion that is related

to the

> Kidney/Bladder (Water element), and fright or shock is related to

the

> Heart/Small Intestine (Fire). It makes sense that qi descends with

Fear

> (anticipation of discomfort) and that it would effect the

Kidney-stress and

> Bladder-weakness. Fright is a more immediate emotion that disturbs

the Heart

> Shen, and so would scatter the Qi.

>

> Marc Till

[Guest guest]

I think Bob's point here is very important and highlights some of

academic conflict found throughout the literature. But we can follow

the 7 Effects and their influences on 5-phase correspondences by

examining of the pulses---where you can directly observe their

affect.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

> As an addendum, I would also like to add that, in my experience,

it is extremely important not to overemphasize the teachings on the

seven affects and their five phase correspondences. There are plenty

of other instances in the Chinese medical literature where famous,

> universally respected authorities have suggested different

> correspondences. For instance, some have said that, " Worry

pertains to the lungs " (not the spleen). Others have said

that, " Worry, anxiety, and thinking damage the heart, " again, not

the spleen. Therefore, I think we have to use these teachings

flexibily, testing their applicability in each individual instance.

I have definite case histories where excessive worry has damaged the

heart (leading to CAD, dysrrhythmia, and ECG ST depression) without

marked spleen vacuity symptoms.

>

> Bob

>

> , TillMH@a... wrote:

> > Although it is common information, I present it in response for

what

> it is

> > worth. In Five Element theory Fear is the emotion that is

related

> to the

> > Kidney/Bladder (Water element), and fright or shock is related

to

> the

> > Heart/Small Intestine (Fire). It makes sense that qi descends

with

> Fear

> > (anticipation of discomfort) and that it would effect the

> Kidney-stress and

> > Bladder-weakness. Fright is a more immediate emotion that

disturbs

> the Heart

> > Shen, and so would scatter the Qi.

> >

> > Marc Till

[Guest guest]

Bob's clinical observation underscores the way 5-Phases should be

actually considered: as a dynamic or interactitve signalling system.

This difference in perspective has been decribed by Manaka and Birch

in Chasing the Dragon (Paradigm, 1995), and always been used by the

Korean Dong Han system. It is not simply an extension to 8-

Principles.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> Therefore, I

> think we have to use these teachings flexibily, testing their

> applicability in each individual instance. I have definite case

> histories where excessive worry has damaged the heart (leading to

CAD, dysrrhythmia, and ECG ST depression) without marked spleen

vacuity symptoms.

[Guest guest]

Marc,

 

Chinese doctors make no distinction between the body and mind. This is

stated quite clearly over and over again in numerous Chinese medical

texts. Therefore, in CM, there is no distinction between an emotion

and a neurological response. In fact, in China, psychiatry and

neurology often form a single specialty (as they are increasingly in

Western medicine). This combined specialty is called shen jing jing

shen ke (neurology-psychiatry). As I mentioned before, the affects,

including fright, are merely the subjective sensation of the movement

of qi in the body. The precipitating stimuli is mostly irrelevant. It

is what the patient feels as a result of the stimuli that is important

and what effect it has on the flow of qi.

 

Bob

 

, TillMH@a... wrote:

> Bob,

>

> I agree, refinement of terminology certainly is the key to defining

a

> specific condition. I was truly being simplistic in my post- as

every

> emotion can manifest in relation to each organ system.

>

> There is also a point to be made in reference to one of the posts

that " that

> fear is an emotion and fright is a sudden neurological response " .

> Terminology again perhaps- when is an emotion a neurological

response (or is

> it only defined as a hormonal activator)? There is the idea of the

continuum

> of illness from the " emotional " to the " physical " , and the question

of where

> does illness start- and why different people react differently to

even

> external pernicious influences. As a beginner in the study of

Chinese

> medicine I am only beginning to get my mind around these issues.

>

> Marc

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

Exactly.

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

I agree on this - often the emotional experience does not clinically correlate with the typical five phase associated organ. The weakest organ can take the hit under the influence of overpowering emotions.

 

Will

 

 

I think Bob's point here is very important and highlights some of academic conflict found throughout the literature. But we can follow the 7 Effects and their influences on 5-phase correspondences by examining of the pulses---where you can directly observe their affect.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, "pemachophel2001" > As an addendum, I would also like to add that, in my experience, it is extremely important not to overemphasize the teachings on the seven affects and their five phase correspondences. There are plenty of other instances in the Chinese medical literature where famous, > universally respected authorities have suggested different > correspondences. For instance, some have said that, "Worry pertains to the lungs" (not the spleen). Others have said that, "Worry, anxiety, and thinking damage the heart," again, not the spleen. Therefore, I think we have to use these teachings flexibily, testing their applicability in each individual instance. I have definite case histories where excessive worry has damaged the heart (leading to CAD, dysrrhythmia, and ECG ST depression) without marked spleen vacuity symptoms.