kidney yang xu

[Guest guest]

Has anyone noticed if certain lab tests seem to correlate with a kidney

yang xu diagnosis. I have anecdotal and experimental evidence related to

thyroid, growth hormone, testosterone, DHEA, 17-hydroxycorticosteroid

excretion. A few abstracts are included below. Does anyone have any

other thoughts about physiological correlates for kidney yang xu? I am

following on Bob Flaws's hypothesis that multiple tests would be necessary

to identify any single TCM pattern. It seems possible to me that one

might see borderline low-normal values in assays of multiple parameters

rather than seeing a distinctly low value in just one test. This would

serve to confirm the idea that TCM is able to diagnose what is considered

" sub-clinical " pathology in WM. Just as a combination of herbs with mild

effects can summate to one large pharmacological effect, so could a large

number of small biochemical changes result in a distinct physiological

change. I think WM's disease care focus gets blinded by the severity of

the end-stage disease process and misses the subtler changes that precede

and co-exist with the full blown pathology. But that does not mean that

these subtler changes are not quantifiable.

 

J Tradit Chin Med 1990 Jun;10(2):132-5

 

Levels of sexual hormones in relation with syndrome-differentiation of TCM

in patients of chronic renal failure.

Zhang Q, Wu Z, Feng Y, Shi J.

Renji Hospital, Shanghai Second Medical University.

Determinations of plasma levels of sexual hormones in 43 male patients of

chronic renal failure showed that the content of testosterone (T)

decreased markedly, while estradiol (E2) and E2/T ratio were obviously

higher than in normal subjects, with no significant correlation between

the levels of these sexual hormones and renal function. According to

syndrome-differentiation of TCM, 17 of the 43 cases belonged to deficiency

of Kidney-yang, and the other 26 cases deficiency of Kidney-yin. In the

patients with deficiency of Kidney-yang, the E2 level was not increased,

but the T content decreased to make the E2/T ratio apparently elevated;

whereas in the patients with deficiency of Kidney-yin, both E2 and E2/T

were elevated. The level of E2 in deficiency of Kidney-yin was markedly

higher than that in deficiency of Kidney-yang. The results indicated that

patients of chronic renal failure of the type of deficiency of Kidney-yang

differed in syndrome as well as in levels of the sexual hormones from the

type of deficiency of Kidney-yin; however, the sexual hormones were not

correlated with the renal functions in the two types of patients.

 

Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi 1997 May;17(5):289-91

 

[Experimental study on effect of bushen shengjing decoction on kidney yang

and testicular dysfunction in rats]

[Article in Chinese]

Yue GP, Chen Q, Dai N.

Institute of Acupuncture and Meridians, Anhui College of TCM, Hefei.

OBJECTIVE: To explore the therapeutical mechanism of Bushen Shengjing

Decoction (BSSJD) in treating infertility. METHODS: Fed Wistar male rats

with adenine 30 mg/100 g.d continuously for 30 days. The rats manifested

the symptom which was similar to the human Kidney Yang Deficiency, the

genitality dropped, the function of sperm-producing in the testis was

disturbed, the contents of luteinizing hormone (LH), testosterone (T) and

compound F (F) in blood were all lower than rats of normal group, P < 0.01.

The model rats took the BSSJD 3 ml/100 g.d (each ml contains crude drugs

2 g) continuously for 10 days, interval for three days, then medicated

again and total medication of BSSJD was 30 days. RESULTS: The symptom of

Kidney Yang Deficiency in rats was improved obviously, the genitality,

sperm quality and function of sperm producing in testis were all enhanced

obviously, so did the hormone level of LH, T, F in blood. Comparing to

untreated control group, the difference was significant (P < 0.05).

CONCLUSION: BSSJD has the function of reinforcing Yang and replenishing

essence and regulate the endocrinological function.

 

Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi 1996 Sep;16(9):552-3

 

[Effect of osthol and total coumarins of fructus cnidii on thyroid hormone

and thyrotropic hormone in kidney-yang deficiency rats]

[Article in Chinese]

Qin LP, Zhang HM, Zhang WD.

College of Pharmacy, Second Military Medical University, Shanghai.

Osthol and total coumarins of Fructus Cnidii were given to the model of

Kidney-Yang Deficiency rats induced by hydrocortison acetate injection,

the changes of serum concentration of thyroxine T3, reverse T3 (rT3), T4

and thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) were observed. Results showed that

in comparison with normal rats, all of the criteria mentioned above were

lowered significantly (P < 0.01) in model rats. After treatment, the

criteria observed were all increased significantly (P < 0.01 or P < 0.05).

It was suggested that the osthol and total coumarins of Fructus Cnidii

could elevate the pituitary-thyroid axis function of Kidney-Yang

Deficiency rats.

PMID: 9772606 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi 1996 May;16(5):267-9

 

[Diphasic regulatory effect of lishen injection on sex hormones in senile

female patients with coronary heart disease of kidney deficiency type]

[Article in Chinese]

Qiu RX, Jin MH, Wu GZ.

First affiliated Hospital, Sun Yat-sen University of Medical Sciences,

Guangzhou.

Effects of Lishen injection on serum estradiol (E2), testosterone (T) and

the E2/T ratio in 30 cases of postmenopausal patients with coronary heart

disease and of Kidney Deficiency type were observed. Results showed that:

(1) Serum E2 and the E2/T ratio were lower (P < 0.01) in the group of

Kidney-Yin Deficiency type and higher (P < 0.01) in the group of

Kidney-Yang Deficiency type as compared with normal control. (2) After

treatment with Lishen injection the levels of serum E2 and the E2/T ratio

were elevated in the former (P < 0.01) and lowered in the later (P < 0.01)

.. Both were approaching to normal level (P > 0.05). (3) The levels of T in

both groups were unaffected (P > 0.05) before and after treatment. These

results suggested the imbalance of Kidney-Yin and Kidney-Yang is related

to the disturbance of sex hormones and Lishen injection could not only

regulate the Kidney-Yin and Kidney-Yang, improve the symptoms of Kidney

Deficiency, but also could convert the abnormal change of sex hormone, it

has a good diphasic regulatory effect on E2, and is beneficial on balance

of sex hormones of both sex in the inner environment of human body.

PMID: 9387715 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds " --

Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

We can find a number of overlaps between CM and WM in the pulses.

And while it is not reliable to equate a single marker, group of

markers, or what is considered " normal " by Western lab standards,

with specific actions in the pulse, we can observe general levels of

activity of, for example, the endocrine glands and say whether or

not their activity is deficient or excessive for this particular

patient.

 

The more obvious the deficient or excessiveness displayed in the

pulse, the more that particular gland---adrenal, pancreas, thyroid,

ovaries, testes---is involved in the pathology and symptoms. For

example, we can observe thyroid function in several different ways.

As a result, we can say whether the condition is hypo- or

hyperthyroid. But the correlation to WM tests remain a problem

because the WM's statistically " normal " range may not be accurate

for a particular patient. Many patient's pulses and symptoms have

shown to be hypothyroid even though they test in the normal range.

 

While these types of correlations are always interesting, we should

be careful not to explain away CM in WM terms. Even if CM can mimic

WM and say that kd yang xu can be equated to particular lab markers

and, when given a specific herbal formula, change those markers, it

does not necessarily mean that those markers and that formula alone

are the issue. Because of the interconnection of organs, emotions,

and qi, we should not jump to the conclusion that those markers may

universally describe either the root or branch.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

It seems possible to me that one might see borderline low-normal

values in assays of multiple parameters rather than seeing a

distinctly low value in just one test. This would

serve to confirm the idea that TCM is able to diagnose what is

considered

" sub-clinical " pathology in WM. Just as a combination of herbs with

mild

effects can summate to one large pharmacological effect, so could a

large

number of small biochemical changes result in a distinct

physiological

change. I think WM's disease care focus gets blinded by the severity

of

the end-stage disease process and misses the subtler changes that

precede

and co-exist with the full blown pathology. But that does not mean

that

these subtler changes are not quantifiable.

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz>

wrote:

:

>

> We can find a number of overlaps between CM and WM in the

pulses.

But the correlation to WM tests remain a problem

> because the WM's statistically " normal " range may not be

accurate

> for a particular patient. Many patient's pulses and symptoms

have

> shown to be hypothyroid even though they test in the normal

range.

 

Jim

 

I just don't understand what you mean. The thyroid gland is an

organ described by western physiology. If it is truly possible to

detect endocrine function in the pulse, then those changes must

show up in lab tests. Otherwise, what is it you are measuring in

the pulse and how do you prove it. Are you saying that by giving

synthroid the pulse will be corrected? Be that as it may, the only

ones who can confirm this are the few people who have learned

your system of dx and the rest of us either need to learn the

system or just take your opinion on faith. So without any form of

objective verification of your claim available to me, I am left

without another step.

 

People continue to try and dismiss my fascination with this topic

as if I wish to explain away CM with WM. Showing correlations

between systems does not reduce either system. Lab tests do

not explain the body's actions, they merely document the

biochemistry of any process. Even if such processes begin with

an " energetic " change, whatever that means, that does not mean

they cannot be quantified on some other level. this does not

reduce the phenomena, it merely proves that it actually exists.

 

Personally I believe all phenomena can be analyzed from

multiple angles. So qi and biochemistry are like two sides of the

same coin to me. You can't have an imbalance in one without

some correspondence in the other. this does not mean one

system " explains " the other. It merely means that the entire

complexity of life can be explored from many perspectives.

 

I never said which came first, the chicken or the egg and I

actually believe neither came first, that phenomena arise

spontaneously in all their facets. the properties of movement

and change are not forces outside biochemistry that drive the

action of molecules, but rather inherent, internal forces that

drives biochemistry and all systems on this planet. there is no

separation between matter and energy here. CM has merely

excelled at describing the global changes and WM has excelled

at describing the isolated ones.

 

[Guest guest]

No, I agree with you correlations between systems doesn't have to

reduce either CM or WM. I thought that the abstracts you presented were

interesting, as were the conclusions about balance of hormones. There

is no doubt that there are potential interfaces between the two systems

(CM and WM), as well as potential confusions. I agree that if a

potential endocrine imbalance is picked up on the pulse, that a blood

test should be used to confirm. I often will feel a pulse that has a

choppy and soggy quality, quite deep, and short, in patients that have

high cholesterol problems. Usually they will already have tests to

confirm it, if not I will recommend that they get them. On several

occasions, the tests have confirmed what I felt on the pulse. However,

some cases of endocrine deficiencies may be, as you pointed out,

'subclinical' in the WM sense, and may not show up on a blood or saliva

test. Also, it may not be practical or economically possible to run

batteries of tests to confirm kidney yang xu or more complex pattern

diagnoses.

 

 

 

On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 09:08 AM, 1 wrote:

 

> People continue to try and dismiss my fascination with this topic

> as if I wish to explain away CM with WM.  Showing correlations

> between systems does not reduce either system.  Lab tests do

> not explain the body's actions, they merely document the

> biochemistry of any process.  Even if such processes begin with

> an " energetic " change, whatever that means, that does not mean

> they cannot be quantified on some other level.  this does not

> reduce the phenomena, it merely proves that it actually exists. 

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

However,

> some cases of endocrine deficiencies may be, as you pointed

out,

> 'subclinical' in the WM sense, and may not show up on a blood

or saliva

> test.

 

By subclinical, I mean that current interpretation of lab tests says

all levels are in the normal range. However, I do think

physiological changes have occurred in these cases. And they

are measurable. In fact, many naturopaths interpret lab tests

quite differently than MD's. they consider relationships between

parameters that are not part of WM analysis. they also use tests

that reveal imbalances that are ignored by WM, such as

intestinal permeability,etc. I also raised the issue of multiple

tests that were borderline low being clinically meaningful.

 

If what you (and Jim) are saying is that thyroid function is

depressed, but hormone output is normal, I can buy that

concept. There are aspects to thyroid function that are not

commonly measured. For instance, deficiencies in certain

amino acids may result in changes in thyroid function, perhaps

with normal T3 and TSH. However, these deficiencies are

measurable. they are ignored by WM, but not by Naturopathy.

So things are only subclinical to the extent that they are not

properly measured.

 

There is also the issue of whether we should use the term

hypothyroid in a nonstandard way. this term has specific

meaning in western physiology. But it is being used differently

by Jim, I think. If it is not being used to describe thyroid function

in terms of hormone levels, what is meant?

 

I think there is an unspoken undercurrent to this discussion

(correct me if I am wrong). an idea that there is an energetic

level of the body that controls the material level. Some yogic

schools refer to this as the etheric sheath. So perhaps what

people are saying they are measuring in the pulse is some

etheric or energetic change that precedes physical change.

since change has only occurred on this etheric level, it is not

measurable in the physical sphere. So in this scheme, it is not

that proper tests have not been done, because there is nothing

physical to measure.

 

Now this really is the crux of the matter. whether kidney yang xu

at most basic level is a purely etheric imbalance that may

eventually affect the physical if it is not corrected. Or that it always

correlates with measurable biochemical changes. If the former

is true, then biochemistry will never be able yield any data on this

matter. I wonder what chinese medical texts say on this matter.

Whether qi is a distinct etheric force separate from matter or an

inherent property of all phenomena, whether we call them matter

or energy today. Perhaps there is more than one idea on this

matter and current debate merely reflects another unresolved

issue from chinese antiquity.

 

Ironically, a little knowledge of history and philosophy is what is

needed to clarify these matters. One could digress into

whether any of this is clinically meaningful. I don't really think so.

I explain my motivation below, which are more about credibiliy

and economics.

 

In my experience, patients who come to me will have

imbalances that can be demonstrated with one or more lab

tests. Sometimes these are nonstandard tests like stool

cultures. Other times they are nonstandard interpretations of

common tests like CBC. I have never had a patient who was

chronically ill that did not test abnormal or positive for something

if we ran tests.

 

Also, it may not be practical or economically possible to run

> batteries of tests to confirm kidney yang xu or more complex

pattern

> diagnoses.

 

And for that reason, I do lab tests on only a few patients. I agree

that this data is not necessary to practice CM. that is not why it

interests me. It interests me out of intellectual curiosity on one

hand, but also practical significance on the other. It might be

expensive for a patient to pay for a battery of tests. But it might

make economic sense to Kaiser. Since there are great savings

to be had in the application of CM to many conditions, one of the

main stumbling blocks is creating a basis for referral.

 

Since Kaiser would save a lot of money in the long run referring

their patients for CM, it would be worth spending on tests to

determine who to refer. If you could show that kidney yang xu

existed biochemically, that it could be corrected with herbs, that it

occurred in many different diseases and there were tests to

prove all this, that would weigh heavily on the medical

establishment. right now, HMO's are doing a PR trick where they

offer acupuncture services, but with extreme limitations on # of

visits, herbs, fees, etc. I remain convinced that only evidence

that the core theories of TCM are physiologically sound will ever

change this. and I think all the preliminary evidence suggests

they are.

 

I know people are concerned about reducing TCM or being

coopted. But I also think this is the best path to take because of

how I interpret paradigm change. It is by engaging normal

science (the prevailing paradigm of the day) from within its own

structures and disclosing data in that process that cannot be

accomodated within the paradigm. thus, the paradigm evolves

because it can no longer explain its purview. Paradigms do not

change when a fringe group merely stakes out its position in

opposition to normal science. First, we show them that we have

credible scientific claims, then we show them the limitations of

their own analysis. If Ken is right about complexity and CM, then

it may be this is a path to bring complexity science into western

medicine through their own back door.

 

The systems of delivering medicine may be crumbling, but I

think it is an error to think the current scientific worldview is on

the way out. Was it Bohrs who said that we only get the new

paradigm when the old guard dies. well, I would offer that with a

huge crop of recently graduated scientists and no end in sight, it

may be well over a century before these changes are fully

integrated into culture and medicine.

 

[Guest guest]

Todd: I just don't understand what you mean. The thyroid gland is an

organ described by western physiology. If it is truly possible to

detect endocrine function in the pulse, then those changes must

show up in lab tests. Otherwise, what is it you are measuring in

the pulse and how do you prove it. Are you saying that by giving

synthroid the pulse will be corrected?

 

Jim: My discussion of those pulse features is at the end of this

posting. While changes can show up in lab tests, we have to be

careful about what we are actually measuring. In CM, including

pulses, we are not directly looking at the marker but an energetic

influence. We are looking at whether the response of the organ or

gland is excessive or deficient for its role in the body; its

production of specific hormones is a secondary issue. As you

said, " CM has merely excelled at describing the global changes and

WM has excelled at describing the isolated ones. " From a Complexity

Theory point-of-view, the sum of the WM parts do not always add up

to CM.

 

 

: People continue to try and dismiss my fascination with this

topic

as if I wish to explain away CM with WM. Showing correlations

between systems does not reduce either system. Lab tests do

not explain the body's actions, they merely document the

biochemistry of any process. Even if such processes begin with

an " energetic " change, whatever that means, that does not mean

they cannot be quantified on some other level. this does not

reduce the phenomena, it merely proves that it actually exists.

 

 

Jim: I suspect their discouragement to be politically motivated (as

is my caution also). I don't want to feed the Western notion that CM

is merely a primitive version requiring WM and its " real " or

scientific answers. I share you interest in viewing parallel

features of WM and CM. I'm trying to follow the WM physiology of

trauma in the pulses, especially the interaction of the Hypothalmus-

Pituitary-Adrenal Axis. I'm not trying to discourage your interest,

only trying to draw caution to the equating of one or more markers

and a feature in CM. Because TCM depends on symptomology so heavily,

there are not always direct correlations in problems where symptoms

do not develop. Pulse diagnosis has enjoyed the reputation that

changes in the pulse can preceed or be independent of symptomology,

and there are often unique features in the pulse that can define a

disorder.

 

 

Thyroid Gland in the Dong Han Method

 

There is no pulse for the thyroid, per se. You must look at other

organs in order to see if the thyroid is problem or not. You can

pick out the thyroid pulse usually at the far distal aspect on the

right Distal side; then you must compare that to the activity in the

Mingmen. If there is a thyroid problem, the patient will also have

problems with the Sanjiao and the kidney and will show metabolic

disorders. Check the water metabolism and examine their energy level

(pancreas and adrenal functioning) in order to see how much energy

is available. All of this will reflect the activity of the gland.

 

When you want to pick up the activity of the thyroid gland you have

to look at the activity in the endocrine part of the kidney and the

endocrine part of the Mingmen. Combine those movements with the

distal aspect of the endocrine depth of the heart position (even

beyond the heart distal). That balance of these pulse positions is

the thyroid pulse.

 

Ramholz Shortcut Method

 

Another but nonspecific, shortcut method of checking the thyroid is

to examine and compare the movements at the end of the stomach

meridian and at the end of the large intestine meridian.

 

This method is nonspecific because we are examining the influence of

the gland from the perspective of the local meridians. Acupuncture

points St9 (Renying) and L.I. 18 (Futu) are both over the physical

location of the thyroid, so the energy of the gland can resonate at

these points.

 

For this combination of pulses to show the thyroid and not some

other feature on the stomach or large intestine, both sections of

the right Middle and right Distal—occupying approximately 1/5 of the

longitudinal length at the distal end of both meridians, at the most

superficial level—must be identical. A damp, slow quality means

hypofunction; a quickening, wiry movement means hyperfunction. When

this combination is found, check the pulses in the Dong Han method

to see the details of how they relate to other organs and the

endocrine system. The shortcut method can help to quickly determine

if their level of thyroid medication is sufficient and effective.

[Guest guest]

People continue to try and dismiss my fascination with this topic as if I wish to explain away CM with WM.

>>>Until we are able to find objective ways to assess what we see we will stay crippled and open to continued dogma. Keep looking Todd

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> If what you (and Jim) are saying is that thyroid function is

> depressed, but hormone output is normal, I can buy that

> concept.

> There is also the issue of whether we should use the term

> hypothyroid in a nonstandard way. this term has specific

> meaning in western physiology. But it is being used differently

> by Jim, I think. If it is not being used to describe thyroid

function in terms of hormone levels, what is meant?

 

How often have we had patients who show all tests normal but have

considerable pain and discomfort? For example, WM thyroid test can

show normal; but the patient can have hypothyroid or hyperthyroid

symptoms and pulses.

 

> I think there is an unspoken undercurrent to this discussion

> (correct me if I am wrong). an idea that there is an energetic

> level of the body that controls the material level. Some yogic

> schools refer to this as the etheric sheath. So perhaps what

> people are saying they are measuring in the pulse is some

> etheric or energetic change that precedes physical change.

 

I don't believe there is an undercurrent. We don't need recourse to

yogic teachings. Everything in this discussion fits into CM. The

limitation is the standard TCM model. In the Mai Jing, changes in

the pulse can preceed physical changes. We can easily verify that in

clinic.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

My experience with Chinese medical texts is that they don't separate

'etheric' from physiological, at least in pre-modern texts. However,

for westerners like us, who are used culturally to the bifurcation of

the physical and non-physical, we may need to educate ourselves in how

to see body/qi phenomena in a unified manner. It is difficult to see

the human being in the same way as the ancient Chinese, even the modern

Chinese tend not to see the body in the ancient way. We need to somehow

reconstruct the experience of the premodern Chinese medical authors.

 

When I read the Unschuld translation of chapter 71 of the Ling shu, I

see a clearly macro-microcosmic relationship of the physical universe

and human body. To quote " Heaven is round, earth is square. Man's head

is round, his feet are square as to correspond to the (shape of heaven

and earth). Heaven has sun and moon; man has a pair of eyes.. . . . "

 

Clearly this macro-microcosmic relationship of the human being and the

universe influenced medical practitioners of millenia. Obviously, it is

less of an influence in modern medicine, both East and West (similar

notions underly Greco-Arabic medicine).

 

I myself see the channel system as an informational system, an

intelligence that informs the body, not just housed in the mind. It

communicates information to all parts of the body, interacts with the

mind, and can be influenced through the dynamics of medical treatment.

This dynamic interrelationship of mind and body is one of the most

important strengths of Chinese medicine in my mind.

 

 

 

 

On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 11:10 AM, 1 wrote:

 

> Now this really is the crux of the matter.  whether kidney yang xu

> at most basic level is a purely etheric imbalance that may

> eventually affect the physical if it is not corrected. Or that it always

> correlates with measurable biochemical changes.  If the former

> is true, then biochemistry will never be able yield any data on this

> matter.  I wonder what chinese medical texts say on this matter. 

> Whether qi is a distinct etheric force separate from matter or an

> inherent property of all phenomena, whether we call them matter

> or energy today.  Perhaps there is more than one idea on this

> matter and current debate merely reflects another unresolved

> issue from chinese antiquity.

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

As editor and (uncredited) cotranslator of the Mai Jing, please quote

me chapter and verse. I'd like to look at that section again, the

Chinese original, and your interpretation based on the English

translation.

 

Thanks.

 

Bob

 

" In the Mai Jing, changes in the pulse can preceed physical changes. "

>

> Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim and Bob -

 

Regardless of whether the translation is correct, I have seen pulses precede pathology on a repeated basis. Also, Dr. Shen stated this. It makes sense that Wang would arrive at such a conclusion given the depth of his consideration of the subject.

 

Will

 

 

As editor and (uncredited) cotranslator of the Mai Jing, please quote me chapter and verse. I'd like to look at that section again, the Chinese original, and your interpretation based on the English translation.

 

Thanks.

 

Bob

 

"In the Mai Jing, changes in the pulse can preceed physical changes."

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

> Bob

>

> " In the Mai Jing, changes in the pulse can preceed physical

changes "

 

this can't possibly refer to the biochemical level of the physical

since the author of the mai jing was unaware of this level. He

surely referred to the manifestation of physical changes or

symptoms on the macrocosmic level. I agree that invisible

changes precede visible ones. but the invisible level of change

referred to by the mai jing author must include both qi and

biochemicals. This is an apples and oranges comparison.

Changes in qi precede the appearance of symptoms, but that

doesn't mean simutaneous invisible changes in biochemistry

aren't also occurring.

 

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz>

wrote:

 

> I don't believe there is an undercurrent. We don't need

recourse to

> yogic teachings. Everything in this discussion fits into CM. The

> limitation is the standard TCM model. In the Mai Jing, changes

in

> the pulse can preceed physical changes. We can easily verify

that in

> clinic.

 

 

I think because qi is invisible, it is conceived as somehow being

a priori in relation to the physical substrate. But biochemistry

also occurs at an invisible level and all the functions attributed to

qi in CM are attributed to biochem in WM. WM also says

biochem changes precede physical sx. Diabetes is a notable

example where high glucose tests can precede sx by years. But

to say at this invisible level that qi precedes biochem is pure

speculation and could never have been written or said by any

chinese of antiquity. So I am not so sure " Everything in this

discussion fits into CM. " When I said the qi paradigm describes

global changes and the biochem paradigm local ones, I still

meant that both occur. According to Ken Wilber, the error of

most theories of holism is that the parts are ignored and only the

whole is considered. they are not mutually exclusive and truly

descriptive system, IMO, must embrace both forms of data or it

misses a big part of the picture. So I will reserve judgment on

your interpretation of the mai jing. It is not mine.

 

[Guest guest]

Todd -

My statement is 'pulse precedes pathology' not 'qi preceding changes in biochemistry'. Please explain the basis of your metaphor.

 

Will

 

But I see no evidence that changes in qi precede changes in biochemistry. Its like the blind men and the elephant, IMO.

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Jim and Bob -

>

> Regardless of whether the translation is correct, I have seen

pulses precede

> pathology on a repeated basis. Also, Dr. Shen stated this. It

makes sense

> that Wang would arrive at such a conclusion given the depth of

his

> consideration of the subject.

 

I really think this mai jing thread has nothing to do with my

original post. The only pathology that the pulse could precede in

ancient china was overt pathology (signs and symptoms).

Modern pathology is understood to be rooted in invisible factors.

These changes are called biochemistry. It seems the idea that

the visible is rooted in the invisible is common to CM and WM.

But I see no evidence that changes in qi precede changes in

biochemistry. Its like the blind men and the elephant, IMO.

 

[Guest guest]

The supporting reference is an aphorism in the Mai Jing, Book 5,

Cheaper 5. My poor translation is:

" If a person is diseased but the pulse is not diseased, this

portends life. If the pulse is diseased but a person is not

diseased, this portends death. "

 

It is not significantly different from the Blue Poppy translation

(p. 143) which reads:

" If the person is diseased but the pulse is not diseased, this is

life (i.e., the person will survive). If the pulse is diseased but

the person is not diseased, this portends death. "

 

Yang Shou-zhong's extrapolation in the first sentence, " (i.e., the

person will survive), " is not found in my Chinese edition; but it

does not significantly change the meaning.

 

Undoubtedly Bian Que, the author of this and the other aphorisms in

this chapter, was an important influence on my Korean pulse

tradition. In this chapter and elsewhere in the Mai Jing, the

prediction of death---the most meaningful physical change---

dramatically reveals how pulses can be used to " portend " an

important physical change or develop a prognosis. I have repeatedly

been able to verify various types of pulse changes before (sometimes

years before) a significant physical change occurs. I point out some

of the more common ones in my seminars on pulse diagnosis. Will

Morris posted earlier in this forum that this is also a common

practice in the Shen/Hammer pulse system. But if a problem starts at

the molecular level, then pulse diagnosis would be unable to track

it until it caused a significant change in the energy.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Jim,

>

> As editor and (uncredited) cotranslator of the Mai Jing, please

quote

> me chapter and verse. I'd like to look at that section again, the

> Chinese original, and your interpretation based on the English

> translation.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Bob

>

> " In the Mai Jing, changes in the pulse can preceed physical

changes. "

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim was there any commentary on the formula?

 

Will

 

I found an herbal tonification formula in the Chinese literature for pituitary [see below].

 

Jim Ramholz

 

Polygonum (He shou wu) 50

Ginseng (Ren shen) 30

Astragalus (Huang qi) 15

Polygonatum (Yu zhu) 15

Angelica (Dang gui) 12

Licorice (Zhi gan cao) 10

Cistanche (Rou cong rong) 10

Paeonia (Bai shao) 9

Citrus (Chen pi) 6

Saussarea (Mu xiang) 6

Aconite (Prepared Fu zi) 2

Cinnamon (Rou gui) 2

 

When made from concentrates, 1000-1500mg TID.

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

Also add to this list FSH and LH. I had one case of a male with

kidney yang xu impotence. The problem was a shutdown of the pituitary

confirmed by lab tests (before he came to me), and verified in the

pulses. He responded well to acupuncture, and I found an herbal

tonification formula in the Chinese literature for pituitary [see

below].

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

Polygonum (He shou wu) 50

Ginseng (Ren shen) 30

Astragalus (Huang qi) 15

Polygonatum (Yu zhu) 15

Angelica (Dang gui) 12

Licorice (Zhi gan cao) 10

Cistanche (Rou cong rong) 10

Paeonia (Bai shao) 9

Citrus (Chen pi) 6

Saussarea (Mu xiang) 6

Aconite (Prepared Fu zi) 2

Cinnamon (Rou gui) 2

 

When made from concentrates, 1000-1500mg TID.

 

 

 

, <@i...> wrote:

> Has anyone noticed if certain lab tests seem to correlate with a

kidney yang xu diagnosis. I have anecdotal and experimental evidence

related to thyroid, growth hormone, testosterone, DHEA, 17-

hydroxycorticosteroid excretion.

[Guest guest]

Bob -

 

As a point of clarification, I was not referring to Todd's post, I was responding to yours and Jim's as indicated by the header.

 

Will

 

 

Nor, IMO, does Will. I recommend going back and reading Todd's postings on this.

[Guest guest]

Bob -

 

The standard functions of the formula are rather obvious. I am particularly interested in findings that would substantiate a direct impact on the pituitary. If the logical systems are limited to the methods you prefer, there is no reason to consider endocrinological methods of analysis.

Will

 

From an analysis of the ingredients in this formula, it addresses a qi, blood, yin, and yang vacuity while taking into account, either preventively or remedially, rectifying the qi and disinhibiting the qi mechanism. So my question is: did the patient present that constellation of patterns? If not, I don't really care what his biochemistry was or his Western medical diagnosis.

 

Bob

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Jim was there any commentary on the formula?

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

Thanks. I think your translation is right on the mark in terms of

what Wang Shu-he wrote. However, IMO, this line does not in any way

support your position, as Todd has already pointed out. At the time

the Mai Jing was written, Wang was talking about overt symptomology. is talking about lab tests and biochemical changes in the body

and these changes relationship to the qi (yin-yang, etc.). So I do not

think this supports your contention at all. From my reading of the

posts back and forth on this issue, you do not seem to have really

understood what Todd is talking about. Nor, IMO, does Will. I

recommend going back and reading Todd's postings on this. I think this

is a hugely important issue, and confusion over this is exactly the

kind of confusion that I think causes so many problems in this

profession. The two (or three) of you are not discoursing on the same

levels.

 

Bob

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> The supporting reference is an aphorism in the Mai Jing, Book 5,

> Cheaper 5. My poor translation is:

> " If a person is diseased but the pulse is not diseased, this

> portends life. If the pulse is diseased but a person is not

> diseased, this portends death. "

>

> It is not significantly different from the Blue Poppy translation

> (p. 143) which reads:

> " If the person is diseased but the pulse is not diseased, this is

> life (i.e., the person will survive). If the pulse is diseased but

> the person is not diseased, this portends death. "

>

> Yang Shou-zhong's extrapolation in the first sentence, " (i.e., the

> person will survive), " is not found in my Chinese edition; but it

> does not significantly change the meaning.

>

> Undoubtedly Bian Que, the author of this and the other aphorisms in

> this chapter, was an important influence on my Korean pulse

> tradition. In this chapter and elsewhere in the Mai Jing, the

> prediction of death---the most meaningful physical change---

> dramatically reveals how pulses can be used to " portend " an

> important physical change or develop a prognosis. I have repeatedly

> been able to verify various types of pulse changes before (sometimes

> years before) a significant physical change occurs. I point out some

> of the more common ones in my seminars on pulse diagnosis. Will

> Morris posted earlier in this forum that this is also a common

> practice in the Shen/Hammer pulse system. But if a problem starts at

> the molecular level, then pulse diagnosis would be unable to track

> it until it caused a significant change in the energy.

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>

> , " pemachophel2001 "

> <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > Jim,

> >

> > As editor and (uncredited) cotranslator of the Mai Jing, please

> quote

> > me chapter and verse. I'd like to look at that section again, the

> > Chinese original, and your interpretation based on the English

> > translation.

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > " In the Mai Jing, changes in the pulse can preceed physical

> changes. "

> > >

> > > Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

From an analysis of the ingredients in this formula, it addresses a

qi, blood, yin, and yang vacuity while taking into account, either

preventively or remedially, rectifying the qi and disinhibiting the qi

mechanism. So my question is: did the patient present that

constellation of patterns? If not, I don't really care what his

biochemistry was or his Western medical diagnosis.

 

Bob

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Jim was there any commentary on the formula?

>

> Will

>

> > I found an herbal

> > tonification formula in the Chinese literature for pituitary [see

> > below].

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> >

> > Polygonum (He shou wu) 50

> > Ginseng (Ren shen) 30

> > Astragalus (Huang qi) 15

> > Polygonatum (Yu zhu) 15

> > Angelica (Dang gui) 12

> > Licorice (Zhi gan cao) 10

> > Cistanche (Rou cong rong) 10

> > Paeonia (Bai shao) 9

> > Citrus (Chen pi) 6

> > Saussarea (Mu xiang) 6

> > Aconite (Prepared Fu zi) 2

> > Cinnamon (Rou gui) 2

> >

> > When made from concentrates, 1000-1500mg TID.

> >

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

-

>

> My statement is 'pulse precedes pathology' not 'qi preceding

changes in

> biochemistry'. Please explain the basis of your metaphor.

>

> Will

>

> > But I see no evidence that changes in qi precede changes in

> > biochemistry. Its like the blind men and the elephant, IMO.

 

 

this thread developed from my contention that that changes in

the pulse always reflect changes in physiology that are

quantifiable in modern science. Jim (and you) imply that

changes in the pulse occur prior to changes in physiology. So

there may be no " quantity " to measure at all. I say that is only

true when applied to overt pathology, not the invisible pathology

of WM. Since we are talking about different aspects of

physiology, I think our discussion is not even about the same

thing, thus the metaphor. I am making the assumption that the

pulse reflects the state of qi. Since this thread began with my

post, I felt the need to reiterate my main point. Otherwise,it might

appear that your support of Jim's post somehow negated my

point and that I agreed.

> >

[Guest guest]

Agreed. Findings substantiating an effect on the pituitary

could/would/might be useful depending on the circumstances and what

one was trying to do with those findings. However, based on the CM

literature and my own clinical experience, there are a number of

different patterns which can manifest a single WM pituitary

dysfunction. So my response was meant as a cautionary one to anyone

(not necessarily you) who might be tempted to think of this Rx as a

" pituitary formula. " The way it was originally presented made me

concerned over that possibility. When I said that I didn't really care

what the Western biochemistry was, I didn't mean that universally. I

only meant it in relationship to whether or not the formula was

prescribed primarily on the basis of pattern discrimination. Sorry if

I wasn't adequately clear in my response.

 

Bob

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Bob -

>

> The standard functions of the formula are rather obvious. I am

particularly

> interested in findings that would substantiate a direct impact on

the

> pituitary. If the logical systems are limited to the methods you

prefer,

> there is no reason to consider endocrinological methods of analysis.

>

> Will

>

> > From an analysis of the ingredients in this formula, it addresses

a

> > qi, blood, yin, and yang vacuity while taking into account, either

> > preventively or remedially, rectifying the qi and disinhibiting

the qi

> > mechanism. So my question is: did the patient present that

> > constellation of patterns? If not, I don't really care what his

> > biochemistry was or his Western medical diagnosis.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > , WMorris116@A... wrote:

> > > Jim was there any commentary on the formula?

> >

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

The energetic and biochemical are undoubtedly inextricably

connected. But you can often see energetic patterns develop before

testable biochemical patterns appear. For example, in woman's

pulses, we can observe the stress from the liver going back to the

reproductive organs ceating a kind of binding movement (known in

China) and then test for the changes creating cervical dysplegia.

These sort of pulse movements can preceed any overt symptoms and

testable changes, and are specific to this type of problem.

 

To say that the pulse is indicating biochemical changes which will

change the development of the tissue is undoubtedly correct (since

everything in the body is a product of some biochemical action) but

untestable. Rather than get caught up in an vicious circle, we need

to procede from the phenomena we can observe and follow the timeline.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

The only pathology that the pulse could precede in

> ancient china was overt pathology (signs and symptoms).

> Modern pathology is understood to be rooted in invisible factors.

> These changes are called biochemistry. It seems the idea that

> the visible is rooted in the invisible is common to CM and WM.

> But I see no evidence that changes in qi precede changes in

> biochemistry. Its like the blind men and the elephant, IMO.

>