Guest guest Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 Hiya, I'm in the process of reviewing a book on TCM and eye diseases. There are a few items presented in the book that I can't find any reference to and am wondering if anybody on this list has an explanation for me. Specifically, the concept of the (TCM) Liver having the function of detoxification. I can't understand where people get that idea, but it is strongly suggested in this book. Is there any reason that people should say that? Blood heat clearing herbs tend to enter the Liver, so cooling off the Liver would remove the heat from the Blood, but I can't quite get my head wrapped around this concept of the TCM Liver as a detoxification organ. Any thoughts on this? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 Can you tell us something more about the author? Western trained? China trained? Source texts and bibliography? I personally am not aware of the liver being associated with detoxification in the Chinese literature. . . .but I could be wrong, I never fail to be surprised at the breadth of the Chinese medical tradition. On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 03:31 PM, Al Stone wrote: > Hiya, > > I'm in the process of reviewing a book on TCM and eye diseases. There > are a few items presented in the book that I can't find any reference to > and am wondering if anybody on this list has an explanation for me. > > Specifically, the concept of the (TCM) Liver having the function of > detoxification. I can't understand where people get that idea, but it > is strongly suggested in this book. > > Is there any reason that people should say that? Blood heat clearing > herbs tend to enter the Liver, so cooling off the Liver would remove the > heat from the Blood, but I can't quite get my head wrapped around this > concept of the TCM Liver as a detoxification organ. > > Any thoughts on this? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 The author sites Jeremy Ross' Point Combination Book as well as Bensky's two texts, among others. His actual statement is this: " Like the Western liver, the Chinese liver filters, purifies and detoxifies every substance we take into our bodies, but in Chinese thought, the liver also detoxifies the spirit. " The author is an L.Ac. presumably trained in North America, as far as I can tell. -al. wrote: > > Can you tell us something more about the author? Western trained? China trained? Source texts and bibliography? I personally am not aware of the liver being associated with detoxification in the Chinese literature. . . .but I could be wrong, I never fail to be surprised at the breadth of the Chinese medical tradition. > > > On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 03:31 PM, Al Stone wrote: > > Hiya, > > I'm in the process of reviewing a book on TCM and eye diseases. There > are a few items presented in the book that I can't find any reference to > and am wondering if anybody on this list has an explanation for me. > > Specifically, the concept of the (TCM) Liver having the function of > detoxification. I can't understand where people get that idea, but it > is strongly suggested in this book. > > Is there any reason that people should say that? Blood heat clearing > herbs tend to enter the Liver, so cooling off the Liver would remove the > heat from the Blood, but I can't quite get my head wrapped around this > concept of the TCM Liver as a detoxification organ. > > Any thoughts on this? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Al, This is exactly why Blue Poppy Press requires all its authors to have at least a reading knowledge of one Far East Asian language -- technical accuracy and authenicity. The problem is that, once an erroneous statement like this creeps into the literature, it is a bitch to get it back out. Most readers and especially students do not consider an author's credentials and, therefore, the relative validity of their ideas when reading a book. I have plenty of experience in this regard since, in my early days, I was responsible for putting a lot of crappy ideas into play which still haunt me on a weekly if not daily basis. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. This is also why the Council of Oriental Medical Publishers (COMP) tried to institute standard labels for identifying the methodologies used in creating a book. These labels were meant to help readers judge the accuracy, validity, and authenicity of published materials. Unfortunately, only Blue Poppy and Paradigm signed onto this convention which, at this point, is pretty much dead. Too bad. Bob , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > The author sites Jeremy Ross' Point Combination Book as well as Bensky's > two texts, among others. His actual statement is this: > > " Like the Western liver, the Chinese liver filters, purifies and > detoxifies every substance we take into our bodies, but in Chinese > thought, the liver also detoxifies the spirit. " > > The author is an L.Ac. presumably trained in North America, as far as I > can tell. > > -al. > > wrote: > > > > Can you tell us something more about the author? Western trained? China trained? Source texts and bibliography? I personally am not aware of the liver being associated with detoxification in the Chinese literature. . . .but I could be wrong, I never fail to be surprised at the breadth of the Chinese medical tradition. > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 03:31 PM, Al Stone wrote: > > > > Hiya, > > > > I'm in the process of reviewing a book on TCM and eye diseases. There > > are a few items presented in the book that I can't find any reference to > > and am wondering if anybody on this list has an explanation for me. > > > > Specifically, the concept of the (TCM) Liver having the function of > > detoxification. I can't understand where people get that idea, but it > > is strongly suggested in this book. > > > > Is there any reason that people should say that? Blood heat clearing > > herbs tend to enter the Liver, so cooling off the Liver would remove the > > heat from the Blood, but I can't quite get my head wrapped around this > > concept of the TCM Liver as a detoxification organ. > > > > Any thoughts on this? > > > > -- > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > <AlStone@B...> > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > The author sites Jeremy Ross' Point Combination Book as well as Bensky's > two texts, among others. His actual statement is this: > > " Like the Western liver, the Chinese liver filters, purifies and > detoxifies every substance we take into our bodies, but in Chinese > thought, the liver also detoxifies the spirit. " I have never seen anything written by Dan Bensky that would even remotely support this statement. What are the actual citations? I have never read more than a few paragraphs by Ross, so I can't comment on him. His style and discourse just never grabbed me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > Specifically, the concept of the (TCM) Liver having the function of > detoxification. I can't understand where people get that idea, but it > is strongly suggested in this book. Al The author of this book clearly does not understand either the TCM liver functions or the modern concept of detoxification. If one understands the modern idea, it is clear that the chinese had no idea of this concept. The herbs in TCM that clear toxin do not work by stimulating TCM liver function. For example pu gong ying clears toxins mainly via the urine. It has well known western liver detox function. But it does not course the liver or nourish liver blood. It may be used for liver dampheat, but this does not have anything to do with TCM liver function, per se. In other words, I do not think the chinese conceived of this herb working by altering liver function. Of the herbs that course the liver, a few have effects on liver detox function (like chai hu), but many, if not most, do not (like xiang fu, qing pi, chuan lian zi). So the fact that chai hu and others affect liver detox is more a fluke than some rule of TCM, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Well, for me this confirms that the author is mixing apples and oranges, Chinese medicine and Western naturopathic concepts. And the idea that the 'Chinese liver' detoxifies the spirit'.. . . .a total fantasy that makes no sense at all. It appeals to the American pop-spiritual mentality, but is not based on any shred of Chinese medical literature. I think it would be difficult to find any description of the hun/ethereal soul that would match this description. On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 05:07 PM, Al Stone wrote: > The author sites Jeremy Ross' Point Combination Book as well as Bensky's > two texts, among others. His actual statement is this: > > " Like the Western liver, the Chinese liver filters, purifies and > detoxifies every substance we take into our bodies, but in Chinese > thought, the liver also detoxifies the spirit. " > > The author is an L.Ac. presumably trained in North America, as far as I > can tell. > > -al. > > wrote: > > > > Can you tell us something more about the author? Western trained? > China trained? Source texts and bibliography? I personally am not aware > of the liver being associated with detoxification in the Chinese > literature. . . .but I could be wrong, I never fail to be surprised at > the breadth of the Chinese medical tradition. > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 03:31 PM, Al Stone wrote: > > > > Hiya, > > > > I'm in the process of reviewing a book on TCM and eye diseases. > There > > are a few items presented in the book that I can't find any > reference to > > and am wondering if anybody on this list has an explanation for > me. > > > > Specifically, the concept of the (TCM) Liver having the function > of > > detoxification. I can't understand where people get that idea, > but it > > is strongly suggested in this book. > > > > Is there any reason that people should say that? Blood heat > clearing > > herbs tend to enter the Liver, so cooling off the Liver would > remove the > > heat from the Blood, but I can't quite get my head wrapped > around this > > concept of the TCM Liver as a detoxification organ. > > > > Any thoughts on this? > > > > -- > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > <AlStone > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Very well said, Todd. On Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 09:01 AM, 1 wrote: > > Al > > The author of this book clearly does not understand either the > TCM liver functions or the modern concept of detoxification. If > one understands the modern idea, it is clear that the chinese > had no idea of this concept. The herbs in TCM that clear toxin do > not work by stimulating TCM liver function. For example pu gong > ying clears toxins mainly via the urine. It has well known western > liver detox function. But it does not course the liver or nourish > liver blood. It may be used for liver dampheat, but this does not > have anything to do with TCM liver function, per se. In other > words, I do not think the chinese conceived of this herb working > by altering liver function. Of the herbs that course the liver, a few > have effects on liver detox function (like chai hu), but many, if not > most, do not (like xiang fu, qing pi, chuan lian zi). So the fact that > chai hu and others affect liver detox is more a fluke than some > rule of TCM, IMO. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Todd: Must we limit our sense of TCM to what the Chinese knew before modern science methods? No matter how you feel about them, the medical acupuncturists are not placing such a limitation on themselves. Jim Ramholz , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: If > one understands the modern idea, it is clear that the chinese > had no idea of this concept. The herbs in TCM that clear toxin do > not work by stimulating TCM liver function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: : > > Must we limit our sense of TCM to what the Chinese knew before > modern science methods? No matter how you feel about them, the > medical acupuncturists are not placing such a limitation on > themselves. Actually, I have no qualms with either medical acupuncture, new ideas and modern science. However, I do not think there is any relationship between the chinese conception of the liver's function and what is now known from modern science. I would say the western liver's detox role is actually a function of the zheng qi. I do not consider this to be an extension or evolution of TCM, but an abberration. I have never advocated altering the known functionsof TCM organs. IMO, the currently defined TCM organ functions explain all of human physiology from a macroscopic level. Within this framework, we have flexibility, but we cannot rend the basic fabric. I think this is quite different from considering whether viruses conform to toxins. This latter idea does not change the way the body works. If detox is a meaningful concept, how does one develop treatment strategy from this idea without essentially practicing naturopathic medicine? If you invent the concept, you then have to invent the therapy. that does not suit me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 I do not consider this to be an extension or evolution of TCM, but an aberration. I have never advocated altering the known functions of TCM organs. IMO, the currently defined TCM organ functions explain all of human physiology from a macroscopic level. Within this framework, we have flexibility, but we cannot rend the basic fabric. I think this is quite different from considering whether viruses conform to toxins. This latter idea does not change the way the body works. Jim: TCM theory is usually able to accommodate new details through its character of generality---for example the various and numerous definitions of " qi " (I still would like to define qi as an emergent property of a dynamical system). If there is a new function---in our case here, for example, " detoxification " ---shouldn't TCM absorb it (a classical Chinese strategy)? Throughout Chinese history innovative concepts were created and evolved. How then should TCM evolve now when confronted by new facts and new functions---both a Western scientific perspective and any newly discovered clinical experience? We both agree that we can't necessarily accommodate every detail from molecular medicine. But, for example, I suspect we can expand on CM theory and accommodate some of the details from dynamical systems and complexity theory---much of TCM already seems like a paraphrase of it. Incorporating " detox " doesn't necessarily alter the known functions of TCM organs---it can view them from a fresh perspective. The concept of detox isn't far removed from viewing the body in terms of 5-Phases and watching an organ's pulse modulate itself. For example, a liver movement showing stagnation, dampheat, etc., becoming more moderate or balanced. This example can be extended to any organ or system. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 Jim, I don't think the issue is so much the validity of the western concept of detoxification, although I do question some of the methodology used (such as the apple juice/olive oil cleanses). The question is representing, in a book supposedly about Chinese medicine, liver detoxification as an integral concept of the structure of Chinese medicine. If one wants to innovate, or interpret in a new fashion, it should be made clear, so that the unsuspecting aren't mislead into thinking that: 1) detox is an integral concept in CM 2) that this is somehow tied up with 'the spirit of the liver' 3) the concept of liver in Chinese and Western medicine are the same (not to say that the liver detox concept is mainstream WM). I think you'd be hard pressed to find liver detox prescriptions in the Chinese medical literature, or point prescriptions. They don't exist. On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:19 AM, jramholz wrote: > Incorporating " detox " doesn't necessarily alter the known functions > of TCM organs---it can view them from a fresh perspective. The > concept of detox isn't far removed from viewing the body in terms of > 5-Phases and watching an organ's pulse modulate itself. For example, > a liver movement showing stagnation, dampheat, etc., becoming more > moderate or balanced. This example can be extended to any organ or > system. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 Z'ev: I'm looking at this question from two perspectives: 1) how does CM integrate new facts, functions, and phenomena that invariably arise; and 2) how can CM theory be adapted to apply and incorporate this new knowledge. For example, detoxification may be considered a separation of the turbid from the clear. While that idea is explicit in TCM for stomach and colon, it is implicit in the example I gave about observing a liver pulse changing from " turbid " to normal. The limitation we are imposing on ourselves is an historical one or an attempt to be consistant with historical foundation, and not a theoretical one. I am always curious to see how people on this forum think about these changes. In my own mind, I have already come to an accommodation with much of Western ideas because the Dong Han system can track in the pulses many things not historically mentioned in CM- --thyroid, endocrine glands, pancreas as separate from spleen, how to identify localized problems, the pathomechanisms of many diseases separately from other s/s. Jim Ramholz " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I don't think the issue is so much the validity of the western > concept of detoxification, although I do question some of the > methodology used (such as the apple juice/olive oil cleanses). The question is representing, in a book supposedly about Chinese medicine, liver detoxification as an integral concept of the structure of Chinese medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 though the concept of liver detoxification has never apppeared in the classical texts, the liver qi can have frenetic movement which affects the heart, the stomach/spleen, the bowels and the bladder, to name some of the organs. Being practitioners of , we can integrate new concepts into our clinicl vocabulary, wirh clarity on the origins and history of the clinical knowledge. Liver detoxification as a concept is a new definition which to my understanding comes from Naturopathic medicine, and I am rather unclear on what liver detox is...we can look at its manifestations. The liver in western anatomical descriptions is responsible for waste elimination and metabolism/ so when the liver is strained and overloaded with many substances, or - when the liver discharges these substances, dtox occurs and then the patient can experience many symptoms which can be analyzed in chinese medical terms to be liver qi depression, liver qi attacking the spleen, liver qi attacking the heart, liver yang rising, etc. We should keep our terminology clear and not jump to include liver detox into our frame of referrance, but continue to assess our patients with the tools we have been given classically. Eti Domb Z'ev:I'm looking at this question from two perspectives: 1) how does CM integrate new facts, functions, and phenomena that invariably arise; and 2) how can CM theory be adapted to apply and incorporate this new knowledge. For example, detoxification may be considered a separation of the turbid from the clear. While that idea is explicit in TCM for stomach and colon, it is implicit in the example I gave about observing a liver pulse changing from "turbid" to normal. The limitation we are imposing on ourselves is an historical one or an attempt to be consistant with historical foundation, and not a theoretical one.I am always curious to see how people on this forum think about these changes. In my own mind, I have already come to an accommodation with much of Western ideas because the Dong Han system can track in the pulses many things not historically mentioned in CM---thyroid, endocrine glands, pancreas as separate from spleen, how to identify localized problems, the pathomechanisms of many diseases separately from other s/s.Jim Ramholz"" <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:> I don't think the issue is so much the validity of the western > concept of detoxification, although I do question some of the > methodology used (such as the apple juice/olive oil cleanses). The question is representing, in a book supposedly about Chinese medicine, liver detoxification as an integral concept of the structure of Chinese medicine. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 Jim & Z'ev et al., I believe that Chinese medicine is and should be a continuously evolving system of thought and practice. However, one has to be careful when they tinker under the hood. There are ways to add to a system and the system keeps functioning systematically. There are other ways one can add to the system which cause the system to fall apart. So I think one has to step back a bit and take a larger view of what one is trying to accomplish clinically when thinking about adding something new to the system. In terms of this discussion on detoxification, clinically, isn't the issue how does Chinese medicine treat patients which Western naturopathy says need " detoxification. " My response to that question is, How about pattern discrimination? In other words, what are the signs and symptoms patients present when they need " detoxification " from the Western naturopathic point of view? Experience as a clinician is that this constellation of signs and symptoms is already covered by one or more of our standard patterns. I think what Z'ev and Todd are getting at is using the system in a self-consistent, systematic way. Perhaps what Western naturopathy identifies as detoxification is actually supplementation in a particular patient when we look at it from our system's methodology. Maybe it's clearing, maybe it's harmonizing, but the issue for me is treatment based on pattern discrimination. Interestingly, I am publishing an article in the Blue Poppy Jul. 1 ezine on a Qing dynasty Daoist master's approach to treating the liver in the spring. He gives several spring-time liver formulas. Some are draining and others are supplementing. None talk about detoxification. Bob , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Z'ev: > > I'm looking at this question from two perspectives: 1) how does CM > integrate new facts, functions, and phenomena that invariably arise; > and 2) how can CM theory be adapted to apply and incorporate this > new knowledge. For example, detoxification may be considered a > separation of the turbid from the clear. While that idea is explicit > in TCM for stomach and colon, it is implicit in the example I gave > about observing a liver pulse changing from " turbid " to normal. > > The limitation we are imposing on ourselves is an historical one or > an attempt to be consistant with historical foundation, and not a > theoretical one. > > I am always curious to see how people on this forum think about > these changes. In my own mind, I have already come to an > accommodation with much of Western ideas because the Dong Han system > can track in the pulses many things not historically mentioned in CM- > --thyroid, endocrine glands, pancreas as separate from spleen, how > to identify localized problems, the pathomechanisms of many diseases > separately from other s/s. > > > Jim Ramholz " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > I don't think the issue is so much the validity of the western > > concept of detoxification, although I do question some of the > > methodology used (such as the apple juice/olive oil cleanses). > The question is representing, in a book supposedly about Chinese > medicine, liver detoxification as an integral concept of the > structure of Chinese medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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