Guest guest Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 >The author of this book clearly does not understand either the >TCM liver functions or the modern concept of detoxification. If >one understands the modern idea, it is clear that the chinese >had no idea of this concept. The herbs in TCM that clear toxin do >not work by stimulating TCM liver function. For example pu gong >ying clears toxins mainly via the urine. It has well known western >liver detox function. But it does not course the liver or nourish >liver blood. It may be used for liver dampheat, but this does not >have anything to do with TCM liver function, per se. In other >words, I do not think the chinese conceived of this herb working >by altering liver function. Of the herbs that course the liver, a few >have effects on liver detox function (like chai hu), but many, if not >most, do not (like xiang fu, qing pi, chuan lian zi). So the fact that >chai hu and others affect liver detox is more a fluke than some >rule of TCM, IMO. > >Todd > Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:13:41 -0700 > "" >Re: TCM Liver detoxifies? > >Well, for me this confirms that the author is mixing apples and oranges, >Chinese medicine and Western naturopathic concepts. And the idea that >the 'Chinese liver' detoxifies the spirit'.. . . .a total fantasy that >makes no sense at all. It appeals to the American pop-spiritual >mentality, but is not based on any shred of Chinese medical literature. >I think it would be difficult to find any description of the >hun/ethereal soul that would match this description. > > > The two messages by Todd and Zev evoke the conundrum that I have been trying to resolve: Why did the translators of CM decide to apply these western biological terms (ie, the organs such as liver, spleen, and others) to CM organs systems (the Zang-Fu)?: Why not just leave the Gan as it is, instead of calling it the Liver? I have observed clients, Non-CM health practitioners, and even CM practitioners talk of Western and CM organs systems as being equivalent phenomenons. I have often tried to untangle this confusion among the abovementioned groups. Sometimes they get it and sometime they don't. Luckily, no has challenged me to explain the historical origins of why the Zang-Fu got translated that way. If they did, all I would have to offer are my hypothesis and the speculation of other CM practitioners. Both of which are not currently adequate in my opinion. I haven't seen Suhbuti, Heiner Fruehauf, Blue Poppy, Maciocia, Bensky, or any of the discussion groups I belong address this issue. However, I haven't read alot of Unshuld, Needham, Sivin, Elizabeth Hsu or any other CM scholars. If there's an explanation, please let me know. Malino Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 (I use 'sign' instead of 'chinese character' throughout the text.) >Why not just leave the Gan as it is, instead of calling it the Liver? It is characteristical for our 'alphabet-spelling' languages that we can adopt different spellings for same/similar/different things. So in different context we use different spellings (we say QiGong instead of EnergyWorking we say Chakra instead of wheel). One chinese sign is like a painting from daVinci or a glas of expensive red wine. It looks and tastes different to an art professor than to a laundry woman. In China there is only one sign. The sign 'Gan' is used to describe the liver as it is sold at the market aswell as the human-liver aswell as some psychological functions 'ganqi' 'ganhuo', when western- medicine entered china they needed a sign for it, they used 'gan'. When telephone entered china they called it lightning-language (the sign for thunder/lightning was adopted for everything electrical). So the western medical terms entered dictionaries, (old 'stupid unmodern' TCM-terms were lost...) and translators looked up the words. When I meet a patient I describe the zangfu on his personal level. I try not to use liver, kidney, spleen as this makes people 'narrowminded' because we have our western association with these words. Chinese folks traditionally have broader, different associations. To a psychiatrist MD I had to use totally different words/sentences to describe shizophreny/ADD/dementia from TCM point of view. To someone who already has knowledge about the Qi-body I use different terms than in front of a MD. The chinese texts have yet not been translated in a manner that would describe zangfu adequately. Mao banned all 'nonsense' texts (texts that dont contribute to his definition of development) in TCM, so a lot of texts that would clear up some questions are lost forever. Every now and then an 'alternative' author finds different words for zangfu and publishes his personal experiences. Those who come close to the higher levels of sign interpretation (from my point of view) are laughed about and put as nonsense. I found my interpretations and connections from zangfu to other healing systems but I shall never speak to MDs (or people who interpret TCM-texts fundamentalistically) about it as they usually reply 'next thing you wanna say is you believe in ghosts and demons? OK, I take all of that as a bad joke because I know you and you would never believe in this BS you just told me.' My understanding of TCM diagnosis and treatment shifted gears when I grasped zangfu. Modern text-interpreters tend to say: 'umm...they must have forgotten some words inbetween to connect/associate this context, let me ADD this and that word so it makes sense as I like it to make sense.' This is the feeling I get comparing english to chinese texts. One sign can be read on different education-levels. A professor interprets them different than a monk or a child. There is no difference in languages like here in western language countries. Medicals and patients communicate using the signs but everyone has his/her own depth of interpretation. Greetings Tay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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