Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 I bring this up because when I went to acupuncture school in the late 80's, using acupuncture as a psychological tool to unearth so-called repressed memories was probably the motivating factor for many of many of my classmates to study TCM. I myself was personally interested in this idea (though it is clearly neo-freudian) Certainly more people were interested in this supposedly profound application of bodymind medicine than were interested in the serious study and practice of herbology. Prominent professors at my alma mater made this their professional focus, despite having no formal training in psychology. Articles were written explaining the effect of childhood sexual abuse (the most common recovered memory) in terms of TCM. Herbal formulas to treat the syndrome were even advocated. This has turned out be an interesting example of cross-cultural MSU (making stuff up). Not only did the TCM practitioners who attempted to treat this syndrome just blatantly make up concepts with no real access to chinese sources, but now it has turned out that the shrinks made up their part, too. Both professional orgs for shrinks (MD and PhD) now take the position that there is no such things as repressed memory syndrome, the memories were inadvertently planted by well meaning shrinks, the actual incidence of the human mind completely repressing such trauma is extremely rare. Our field is tenuous enough without jumping on every bandwagon that comes along. This is a good reminder to be a skeptic. If for no other reason than hundreds of therapists ended up being bankrupted by malpractice suits over this matter. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 There was actually a whole section in a book by Shirley MacLaine about a psychic healer who did past life regressions with acupuncture in New Mexico, and actually trained a bunch of people to do this work. The acupuncture board busted her on training people to do this technique without schooling (basically involving 'windows to the sky' points), so she had to stop and switch to 'acupressure' techniques. On Sunday, June 16, 2002, at 11:39 AM, wrote: > I bring this up because when I went to acupuncture school in the late > 80's, using acupuncture as a psychological tool to unearth so-called > repressed memories was probably the motivating factor for many of many > of my classmates to study TCM. I myself was personally interested in > this idea (though it is clearly neo-freudian) Certainly more people > were interested in this supposedly profound application of bodymind > medicine than were interested in the serious study and practice of > herbology. Prominent professors at my alma mater made this their > professional focus, despite having no formal training in psychology. > Articles were written explaining the effect of childhood sexual abuse > (the most common recovered memory) in terms of TCM. Herbal formulas to > treat the syndrome were even advocated. This has turned out be an > interesting example of cross-cultural MSU (making stuff up). Not only > did the TCM practitioners who attempted to treat this syndrome just > blatantly make up concepts with no real access to chinese sources, but > now it has turned out that the shrinks made up their part, too. Both > professional orgs for shrinks (MD and PhD) now take the position that > there is no such things as repressed memory syndrome, the memories were > inadvertently planted by well meaning shrinks, the actual incidence of > the human mind completely repressing such trauma is extremely rare. > Our field is tenuous enough without jumping on every bandwagon that > comes along. This is a good reminder to be a skeptic. If for no other > reason than hundreds of therapists ended up being bankrupted by > malpractice suits over this matter. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds " -- > Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Um, when you mention using sky points to delve into a patient's repressed memories, are you referring to ghost points? My school is fairly conservative on any spiritual or psychological aspects dealing with acupuncture. This has its advantages, however dry it makes an exciting topic. Could someone please list the sky points? I've got some idea but would like a definitive list. Thanks, Wade --- <zrosenbe wrote: > There was actually a whole section in a book by Shirley MacLaine > about a > psychic healer who did past life regressions with acupuncture in New > Mexico, and actually trained a bunch of people to do this work. The > acupuncture board busted her on training people to do this technique > without schooling (basically involving 'windows to the sky' points), > so > she had to stop and switch to 'acupressure' techniques. > > > On Sunday, June 16, 2002, at 11:39 AM, wrote: > > > I bring this up because when I went to acupuncture school in the > late > > 80's, using acupuncture as a psychological tool to unearth > so-called > > repressed memories was probably the motivating factor for many of > many > > of my classmates to study TCM. I myself was personally interested > in > > this idea (though it is clearly neo-freudian) Certainly more > people > > were interested in this supposedly profound application of bodymind > > > medicine than were interested in the serious study and practice of > > herbology. Prominent professors at my alma mater made this their > > professional focus, despite having no formal training in > psychology. > > Articles were written explaining the effect of childhood sexual > abuse > > (the most common recovered memory) in terms of TCM. Herbal > formulas to > > treat the syndrome were even advocated. This has turned out be an > > interesting example of cross-cultural MSU (making stuff up). Not > only > > did the TCM practitioners who attempted to treat this syndrome just > > > blatantly make up concepts with no real access to chinese sources, > but > > now it has turned out that the shrinks made up their part, too. > Both > > professional orgs for shrinks (MD and PhD) now take the position > that > > there is no such things as repressed memory syndrome, the memories > were > > inadvertently planted by well meaning shrinks, the actual incidence > of > > the human mind completely repressing such trauma is extremely rare. > > > Our field is tenuous enough without jumping on every bandwagon that > > > comes along. This is a good reminder to be a skeptic. If for no > other > > reason than hundreds of therapists ended up being bankrupted by > > malpractice suits over this matter. > > > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > voice: > > fax: > > > > " Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre > minds " -- > > Albert Einstein > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 cha repressed memory syndrome .....This is a good reminder to be a skeptic. If for no other reason than hundreds of therapists ended up being bankrupted by malpractice suits over this matter.Good point. In fact I am skeptical about those that invalidate the concept of repressed memories even if its proponents are misguided as well. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 windows of the sky points mostly circle the neck: Lu 3, LI 18, Pc 1, SJ 16, SI 16, SI 17, St 9, UB 10, CV 22, GV 16 Jeremy Ross's book Acupuncture Point Combinations has a couple of pages about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Dear Friends - Repressed memory syndrome is an issue we must face whether it is represented in standardized literature or not. Application of a conservative Dong Yuen style needling method can dredge out difficult to deal with emotional material for patients. It is interesting to note the use of Window of the Sky points in this regard. Certainly there is more than one tradition using them for the upper meeting points of the divergent channels. Van Nghi tends to do this in conjunction with divergences in the shoulder and hip regions. Shima and Yuen seem to do it from the He Sea points. If there is one meridian system that dredges old emotional material repressed or not, in my experience it would seem to be the divergent channel system. Pulses that may indicate divergent channel issues: 1. Tense and full (Hammer - inflated) between the middle and upper burner areas related to the diaphragm . 2. Positive neuropsychological finding (see Hammer for the pulse details) 3. Tense and full heart position These are based on the notion that the divergents all traverse the diaphragm (they must even though the text does not explicitly state it), they traverse the heart (this is in debate), they all arrive at Ba Hui Du 20. These pulse findings are predicted on observation of the pathways of the vessels. While this discussion uses some of Hammer's findings, he did not entertain discussion of divergents in the context of the pulse system he developed as a result of his exposure to Dr. Shen. Herbal relevence: The late Dr Shen had an off-label method of dealing with a history of emotional trauma by using Yu Nan Bai Yao. Quickening blood may easily dredge emotional trauma to the surface and should be used with caution. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > Good point. In fact I am skeptical about those that invalidate the > concept of repressed memories even if its proponents are misguided as well. > always good to be a skeptic on all sides of an issue, but in this case, many, many claims of repressed memories were actually proven false when the details were investigated. And very few were confirmed independently. whatever the validity of this concept, we certainly cannot have a legal or ethical system that is based upon " he said, she said " scenarios. Unless one can produce corroborating evidence, I'll have to remain skeptical. It is worth noting the current position of the psych pro orgs is a recent change. these groups once embraced this idea and only backed off as evidence mounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 On Monday, June 17, 2002, at 12:31 PM, WMorris116 wrote: > Dear Friends - > > Repressed memory syndrome is an issue we must face whether it is > represented in standardized literature or not. Application of a > conservative Dong Yuen style needling method can dredge out difficult > to deal with emotional material for patients.\ There is no doubt that a patient may have repressed memories, but like a lot of issues in mental health, it became a 'stock riff'/cliche, over-used, and abused. Sometimes those repressed memories never existed and were planted there by unscrupulous health professionals and even cult leaders, to turn people against their families. As far as using Dong-yuan needling, I am familiar with this method of acupuncture, and use it, but not with the treatment of repressed memories. What is your source for using this method in this way, or is it based on personal experience? Is this what is taught by Jeffrey Yuen? > > It is interesting to note the use of Window of the Sky points in this > regard. Certainly there is more than one tradition using them for the > upper meeting points of the divergent channels. Van Nghi tends to do > this in conjunction with divergences in the shoulder and hip regions. > Shima and Yuen seem to do it from the He Sea points. > If there is one meridian system that dredges old emotional material > repressed or not, in my experience it would seem to be the divergent > channel system. Again, while this seems entirely possible to me, do you have any sources I can look to on this? Also, 'repressed emotional material' is a different, more diverse criteria than 'repressed memories'. > > Pulses that may indicate divergent channel issues: > 1. Tense and full (Hammer - inflated) between the middle and upper > burner areas related to the diaphragm . > 2. Positive neuropsychological finding (see Hammer for the pulse > details) > 3. Tense and full heart position > > These are based on the notion that the divergents all traverse the > diaphragm (they must even though the text does not explicitly state > it), they traverse the heart (this is in debate), they all arrive at Ba > Hui Du 20. These pulse findings are predicted on observation of the > pathways of the vessels. While this discussion uses some of Hammer's > findings, he did not entertain discussion of divergents in the context > of the pulse system he developed as a result of his exposure to Dr. > Shen. Then would you say that this is speculative? That we should be careful to draw conclusions without sound material to support what we are doing? > > Herbal relevence: > The late Dr Shen had an off-label method of dealing with a history of > emotional trauma by using Yu Nan Bai Yao. Quickening blood may easily > dredge emotional trauma to the surface and should be used with caution. I have heard this before. . . quite interesting. I don't think this would be a problem as long as the patient has a pattern of liver depressive heat and blood stasis that would match the indications for this prescription. But if there isn't blood stasis or depressive heat, yunnan baiyao may create complications. There are still too many practitioners who will jump on an idea without taking the case adequately, so, as you mention, caution is advised. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 ....in this case, many, many claims of repressed memories were actually proven false when the details were investigated. There are some very different concepts about suppressed memories than what you are referring to, wherein they are not from one specific incident, but rather from the accumulated effects of the endless trials and tribulations of life, and which result in a substantial amount of subconsciously retained anger, frustration, etc. My experience is that the consequences of these accumulated memories is very real in the way they affect behavior, physiology, metabolism, and the development of chronic disease. I believe these subconscious memories greatly influence the way we respond to circumstances, which in turn sets up pathological behavior patterns. I believe that the tendency to engage the response pattern can be reduced, or at least controlled, by acupuncture and herbs. The behavioral response motivations generated by the subconscious may still remain, although expressed to a lesser degree, for a while. Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 I think this is a different idea, that the stresses of life lead one to repress emotions (isn't this liver qi stagnation?). Yes, very different. I was just making noise to make sure the difference was made clear. Thanks. Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > There are some very different concepts about suppressed memories than what > you are referring to, wherein they are not from one specific incident, but > rather from the accumulated effects of the endless trials and tribulations > of life, and which result in a substantial amount of subconsciously retained > anger, frustration, etc. Stephen I think this is a different idea, that the stresses of life lead one to repress emotions (isn't this liver qi stagnation?). I don't think this is the same idea as repressing entire episodes from one's life. What you refer to is the residue of experience that is suppressed, not the experience itself. But in dredging those emotions, there is a great tendency of the human mind to create memories where there are none. Whatever the value in getting in touch with these suppressed emotions, we must be careful not to read too much into the content of the catharsis. Many of the patients I refer to probably had valid emotional releases that were implanted with false memories after the fact (by well intentioned shrinks, no doubt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Will: The use of the He/Sea points as conceived by Shima and Yuen sounds similar to the application of the Dong Han system. The reason for the effectiveness of He/Sea points for repressed or buried memories is that they can be found most often at the adapted depth [Dong Han terminology] in pulse diagnosis---the deepest of the qi/blood/organ 3-depths used in the S/H school and Nan Jing. We divide each of these three depths again into three subparts, so we can observe an unconscious emotional pulse movement (the qi or meridian level of the adapted depth). Like you, I have observed a variety of different pulses as well as tense/full/inflated---depending on the emotion, its specific position, the 5-phases pattern involved, and its depth in the adapted area (not just as liver stagnation as described in TCM perspective). The He/Sea points are of particular interest in this problem because they connect that unconscious emotional depth to the surface via the divergent meridians; so emotions can be expressed to a more superficial and, therefore, conscious depth. In the Dong Han system, we often use the He/Sea points to work at the organ depth (5-Phases) and to communicate with the meridians (6 Qi). The idea that the divergent meridians connect to the brain may be considered indirectly since the internal organs in 5-Phases are associated to sensory organs, and connect to their respective sensory organ along internal meridian pathways. But I don't seen any problem with using Window of the Sky Points to connect the organ to the brain, if that's someone's choice. All the organs are directly connecteded to the heart through the general blood circulation and in the 'Three Positions and Nine Indicators' pulse model (found in Suwen, Chapter 20; and The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxa, p. 249). So, even though the connection for all divergent meridians may not be direct to the heart, they are still essential and strong. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 I'll have to remain skeptical. It is worth noting the current position of the psych pro orgs is a recent change. these groups once embraced this idea and only backed off as evidence mounted >>>>I do not think the psychiatrists have ever endorsed these ideas. Personally i never believed the idea of repressed memories Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 My experience is that the consequences of theseaccumulated memories is very real in the way they affect behavior,physiology, metabolism, and the development of chronic disease. >>>That is different than the so called years of sexual abuse that people never remembered Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " < alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > >>>>I do not think the psychiatrists have ever endorsed these ideas. Personally i never believed the idea of repressed memories > Alon It was only officially disapproved by the american psychiatric association recently. I don't think it ever made it to DSM-IV, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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