Jeffery Yuen

[Guest guest]

Here is an interview with Jeffery Yuen.

 

http://www.asny.org/mts012.asp

 

www.asny seems like a very good website also.

[Guest guest]

,

wrote:

> Here is an interview with Jeffery Yuen.

>

> http://www.asny.org/mts012.asp

 

 

Interesting story. I notice he grew up in Harlem and if I follow the

storyline, it was probably during the sixties. Does anyone know

how old he is? I suppose the implication here with regard to

xiang fu being a hun herb is this is something he learned from

his taoist tradition and it is not possible to document a source.

This certainly raises the issue of how one evaluates such

information. I suppose if one works directly with such a teacher,

then one sees results in action. I think we have all learned

things from our teachers that are very explicit in books. For

instance, most of what I know about dosage was taught to me by

main herb teacher. But in the absence of direct contact with an

idiosyncratic teacher, how can I rely on such information? And

how do I evaluate the credentials of such a teacher? by his or

her charisma?

 

With regard to xiang fu's effects on past and future, there is no

way I am going to elicit confirmation of this effect without a very

leading question. If a patient spontaneously reports to me that

they resolved a past issue while taking xiang fu, that would be

interesting if it happened constantly. If I suggest to the patient

that this is likely and then it happens, I am a lot more skeptical.

So I just don't know how to make use of this information without

rampant speculation on my part. I do use xiang fu quite a bit, so

I will pay attention to what the patient reports about their life with

this idea in mind to see if I detect any patterns. Idiosyncratic

ideas may have value and if we can test them without harming

the patient, it seems a worthy undertaking. I wouldn't prescribe

xiang fu for this purpose, but if I happen to be giving it anyway...

 

Doug, have you found this idea to be valid?

 

[Guest guest]

Douglas:

 

Do you know his lecture schedule?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

,

wrote:

> Here is an interview with Jeffery Yuen.

>

> http://www.asny.org/mts012.asp

>

> www.asny seems like a very good website also.

[Guest guest]

Jim (and Doug, excuse me for intruding, if I am),

Jeffrey Yuen will be giving a seminar in Maryland in November,

and I can get that date for you if you're interested. He occasionally

lectures at the AOM school in Montclair, NJ and more frequently at NESA

(Boston).

Just thought I'd contribute what I know. He

is not easy to get ahold of. As a Daoist, Yuen does not charge for

his healing work and lives on his teaching income.

Frances

jramholz wrote:

Douglas:

Do you know his lecture schedule?

Jim Ramholz

 

 

,

 

wrote:

> Here is an interview with Jeffery Yuen.

>

> http://www.asny.org/mts012.asp

>

> www.asny seems like a very good website also.

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Frances:

 

Please do get me the date. I've only heard of his work second-hand

and on audio tape; some of it sounds intriguing.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

, Frances Gander <fgander@c...> wrote:

> Jim (and Doug, excuse me for intruding, if I am),

>

> Jeffrey Yuen will be giving a seminar in Maryland in November, and

I can get that date for you if you're interested. He occasionally

lectures at the AOM school in Montclair, NJ and more frequently at

NESA (Boston).

>

> Just thought I'd contribute what I know. He is not easy to get

ahold of. As a Daoist, Yuen does not charge for his healing work

and lives on his teaching income.

>

> Frances

[Guest guest]

Jeffrey Yuen is the director of the acupuncture program at the Swedish Institute in NYC and teaches there. I also came across the website for American University of in LA and he teaches there, as well. They have the schedule on their website. www.aucm.org

Catherine

 

 

 

-

jramholz

Friday, June 21, 2002 7:05 PM

Re: Jeffery Yuen

Frances:Please do get me the date. I've only heard of his work second-hand and on audio tape; some of it sounds intriguing.Jim Ramholz, Frances Gander <fgander@c...> wrote:> Jim (and Doug, excuse me for intruding, if I am),> > Jeffrey Yuen will be giving a seminar in Maryland in November, and I can get that date for you if you're interested. He occasionally lectures at the AOM school in Montclair, NJ and more frequently at NESA (Boston).> > Just thought I'd contribute what I know. He is not easy to get ahold of. As a Daoist, Yuen does not charge for his healing work and lives on his teaching income.> > FrancesChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

It is the American University of Complementary Medicine in West LA. They have many programs besides Chinese medicine.

 

Julie

 

-

Catherine Hemenway

Friday, June 21, 2002 10:05 PM

Re: Re: Jeffery Yuen

 

Jeffrey Yuen is the director of the acupuncture program at the Swedish Institute in NYC and teaches there. I also came across the website for American University of in LA and he teaches there, as well. They have the schedule on their website. www.aucm.org

Catherine

 

 

 

-

jramholz

Friday, June 21, 2002 7:05 PM

Re: Jeffery Yuen

Frances:Please do get me the date. I've only heard of his work second-hand and on audio tape; some of it sounds intriguing.Jim Ramholz, Frances Gander <fgander@c...> wrote:> Jim (and Doug, excuse me for intruding, if I am),> > Jeffrey Yuen will be giving a seminar in Maryland in November, and I can get that date for you if you're interested. He occasionally lectures at the AOM school in Montclair, NJ and more frequently at NESA (Boston).> > Just thought I'd contribute what I know. He is not easy to get ahold of. As a Daoist, Yuen does not charge for his healing work and lives on his teaching income.> > FrancesChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> This certainly raises the issue of how one evaluates such

> information. >>

 

If their information is unfamiliar, but a logical extension of

theory, that's one criteria. If their information can be learned---

even over an extended period of time---and reprodued, then I find no

problem with it. Theory and practice have been satisfied.

 

 

>> I do use xiang fu quite a bit, so I will pay attention to what

the patient reports about their life with this idea in mind to see

if I detect any patterns. Idiosyncratic ideas may have value and if

we can test them without harming the patient, it seems a worthy

undertaking. I wouldn't prescribe xiang fu for this purpose, but if

I happen to be giving it anyway... >>

 

Does it necessitate using xiang fu by itself? And, since you already

have, shouldn't you have already noticed those effects? Perhaps

there is more to this information that hasn't been revealed.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim - I agree with you about this 100%. Strict adherence to pre-existing standardized material gives me liver depression qi stagnation - not that I don't have profound respect for the foundation it provides. Logical extensions from theory into practice that provide increased clinical capacites give vitality to Chinese medicine.

 

Will

 

If their information is unfamiliar, but a logical extension of theory, that's one criteria. If their information can be learned---

even over an extended period of time---and reprodued, then I find no problem with it. Theory and practice have been satisfied.

[Guest guest]

Z'ev

 

 

I don't think the issue is necessarily adhering to pre-existing standardized material, because a vast majority of the Chinese medical literature is not 'standardized'.

 

However, the state influenced school systems here and in China tend to be.

 

One cannot, however, just give vent to opinions or ideas about medicinals out of one's head without some clinical record, source material, or confirmation from other practitioners, and have it stick. I don't think we've developed enough as a profession in the West to confirm what we are finding or doing.

 

 

I respectfully disagree on the point of your last sentance. I also think there is a big difference between what I am suggesting "Logical extensions from theory into practice that provide increased clinical capacites give vitality to Chinese medicine."

Verses what you are suggesting "one cannot, however, just give vent to opinions or ideas about medicinals out of one's head". As you know, my position on this is to render clinical confirmation.

 

until we have better access to that literature, we should be careful about passing off speculation as fact.

 

 

I agree with you on this.

Will Morris

[Guest guest]

 

-

WMorris116

Saturday, June 29, 2002 2:42 AM

Re: Re: Jeffery Yuen

 

What wonderful tangents we weave! Originally, we were speaking about xiang fu and the Hun, I believe.

 

This discussion sparked a new treatment strategy for a patient of mine whom I have been treating for seven

months. He has always appeared to be a LDQS(Liver Depression Qi Stagnation) type of guy, depression being his chief complaint. with some Heart issues, mainly sleep difficulties. Complicating this issue was his sort of dopey, clouded appearance that I relegated as phlegm misting the Heart (along with a shenless, sticky tongue). Perhaps there is such a thing as Phlegm misting the Hun? This patient seems to be pretty true to his Liver pattern throughout our treatment, as a matter of fact, he was diagnosed 2 months ago with Hep C.

Anyway, I have had good results treating him with a balance of Liver and Heart formulae (some 5-HTP was snuck into his protocol as well.) But, things seemed to revert. To practicalize 'xiang fu as a Hun herb', I began him last week on a Yue Ju Wan modification (here xiang Fu and not Chai Hu is utilized.) I added Gan Cao and Bai Shao due to the fact that he has lately developed tight and painful musculature in the hypochondriac region of the upper abdomen. Also, Gan Cao has proven beneficial in Hep C (Whoops! mixing medical paradigms, again). Also, to prevent the phlegm from misting I added Yuan Zhi. Suan Zao Ren and He huan Pi were also added to his formula.

Does anyone remember the contents of a formula that I once saw in one of Bob Flaws' books called An Hun Tang, 'Calm The Hun Decocotion'?Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

One cannot, however, just give vent to opinions or ideas about medicinals out of one's head without some clinical record, source material, or confirmation from other practitioners, and have it stick. I don't think we've developed enough as a profession in the West to confirm what we are finding or doing

>>>You don't think we have some practitioners with vast experience seeing patients? Their experience is just as important as any body else's. If it is real experience and not just Book writing etc.

alon

[Guest guest]

Z'ev -

 

I guess I misread your statement as well. It seemed to me an accusation of venting ideas and opinions out of ones head with no clinical record, source material, or confirmation from other practitioners. I certainly got no discussion on the fact that "we haven't found a way to share and accurately record what it is we are doing."

 

Let me clarify the procedure by which I arrive at conclusions. As you know my work is predicated on standardized training, classical works, and family lineage. This is then applied to clinical practice and then through classroom verification with students and then verified by cohorts of students in clinical settings. The missing piece is a more properly designed study with appropriate statistical models.

 

I agree that we need a better way to communicate what we are doing. The teachings I have been exposed to were through a painful process of direct transmission. The result of this is a product that I believe cannot be delivered through written word - there has and always will be the need for direct transmission.

Will Morris

 

> Jim - I agree with you about this 100%. Strict adherence to > pre-existing standardized material gives me liver depression qi > stagnation - not that I don't have profound respect for the foundation > it provides. Logical extensions from theory into practice that provide > increased clinical capacites give vitality to Chinese medicine.

Will,

One cannot, however, just give vent to opinions or ideas about medicinals out of one's head without some clinical record, source material, or confirmation from other practitioners, and have it stick.

 

The point is, that we haven't found a way to share and accurately record what it is we are doing, the what and why of what we've given or treated our patients with, the diagnostic information, and this makes it impossible to develop clinical records that can benefit the profession.

[Guest guest]

The point is, that we haven't found a way to share and accurately record what it is we are doing, the what and why of what we've given or treated our patients with, the diagnostic information, and this makes it impossible to develop clinical records that can benefit the profession. The key is to develop the art and skill of case histories, and connect this with the historical literature or the present criteria in Asian countries. If a practitioner cannot coherently communicate their own cases to others in an accurate manner, how can we figure out what is useful?>>>I totally agree. I would only say that I am one that think case histories are of only limited value. They can be a great education tool and insight into another practitioners mind. But they have very little value in terms of evaluating CM

Alon

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

there has and always will be the need for direct transmission.

 

Will

 

I think we all agree with this. We have all had our personal

teachers. The question is how we evaluate and incorporate

idiosyncratic material into our didactics and practice. I

appreciate your detail of the process you use by which to

evaluate this information. If everyone were so discriminating in

evaluating the words of charismatic teachers, this issue would

be moot. The other thing that is important to me is that when

idiosyncratic material is presented to students, that it is

explained that this is from a family lineage, etc. Students need

to be able to distinguish between foundations with a broad

consensus and those practices that are idiosyncratic so they

can make informed clinical decisions. It actually becomes

almost crucial in a busy intern clinic that one can make these

distinctions so that all clinicians have at least one common

language to speak. then, if different " subcultures " have their own

slang, everybody is well served. [note: I believe the use of the

word idiosyncratic is a good descriptor of the oral tradition. the

dictionary defines this word to refer to a characteristic style

unique to an individual; it is not meant to be pejorative]

 

[Guest guest]

Todd -

 

 

Students need to be able to distinguish between foundations with a broad consensus and those practices that are idiosyncratic so they can make informed clinical decisions.

 

I agree, this is a critical point for the educational process.

 

It actually becomes almost crucial in a busy intern clinic that one can make these distinctions so that all clinicians have at least one common language to speak. then, if different "subcultures" have their own slang, everybody is well served. [note: I believe the use of the word idiosyncratic is a good descriptor of the oral tradition. the dictionary defines this word to refer to a characteristic style unique to an individual; it is not meant to be pejorative]

 

 

I also agree with this. Many oral traditions do have idiosyncratic findings that are traceable to standard teachings both modern and classical. I think the various modes of learning Chinese medicine as outlined by Hsu in "The Transmission of ' each have value and bring distinct possibilites to the table. This is why I question people who lean into a single vein as the 'truth'.

 

One of the reasons I left the fold of Hammer's division of the Ting family lineage was his choice to use idiosyncratic terms for standard findings. And - especially the decision to use standard terms in an idiosyncratic fashion. For instance, his use of terms such as wiry and tight. However, I'm not certain I would charactarize these decisions as 'slang'.

 

My commitment is to the support of various subcultures in the clinic and the students clearly appreciate it. Bear in mind, the standardized use of Wiseman is still very much a subculture for Chinese practitioners and as well, many older American practitioners.

 

Will Morris

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

Bear in mind, the standardized use of Wiseman

> is still very much a subculture for Chinese practitioners

 

Will

 

Not sure what you mean by this. Most docs from PRC are

required to read the chinese version of Fundamentals before

starting school. Perhaps they are unfamiliar with his translation

terms (is this what you mean?), but his material is most faithful

to their actual education.

 

[Guest guest]

Here I refer to it as a translational style - I know of no Chinese practitioners in these parts using Wiseman terminology.

Will

 

 

Bear in mind, the standardized use of Wiseman > is still very much a subculture for Chinese practitioners

 

Will

 

Not sure what you mean by this. Most docs from PRC are required to read the chinese version of Fundamentals before starting school. Perhaps they are unfamiliar with his translation terms (is this what you mean?), but his material is most faithful to their actual education.

[Guest guest]

Will,

I don't think the issue is necessarily adhering to pre-existing

standardized material, because a vast majority of the Chinese medical

literature is not 'standardized'. One cannot, however, just give vent

to opinions or ideas about medicinals out of one's head without some

clinical record, source material, or confirmation from other

practitioners, and have it stick. I don't think we've developed enough

as a profession in the West to confirm what we are finding or doing.

 

While the concept of emotional/psychological influences of Chinese

medicinals is well established in the ancient literature (such as in the

Divine Farmer's Materia Medica), until we have better access to that

literature, we should be careful about passing off speculation as fact.

When I get some time, I am going to look in the Great Dictionary of

Chinese Medicinals and see if there is anything about xiang fu's use for

emotional/psychological issues in there. It isn't listed in the Divine

Farmer's Materia Medica. We must be cautious in ascribing new

qualities to medicinals, however, because of the tendency in Western

alternative medicine circles to think in New Age terms about traditional

medical systems.

 

 

On Tuesday, June 25, 2002, at 03:42 AM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> Jim - I agree with you about this 100%. Strict adherence to

> pre-existing standardized material gives me liver depression qi

> stagnation - not that I don't have profound respect for the foundation

> it provides. Logical extensions from theory into practice that provide

> increased clinical capacites give vitality to Chinese medicine.

>

> Will

>

> If their information is unfamiliar, but a logical extension of

> theory, that's one criteria. If their information can be learned---

> even over an extended period of time---and reprodued, then I find no

> problem with it. Theory and practice have been satisfied.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think perhaps you misread what I am saying. Of course there are

practitioners with valuable clinical experience, vast experience. I

think many of us have valuable clinical experience. Heck, you and I

have been doing this for a long time, along with several people on this

list.

 

The point is, that we haven't found a way to share and accurately record

what it is we are doing, the what and why of what we've given or treated

our patients with, the diagnostic information, and this makes it

impossible to develop clinical records that can benefit the profession.

 

The key is to develop the art and skill of case histories, and connect

this with the historical literature or the present criteria in Asian

countries. If a practitioner cannot coherently communicate their own

cases to others in an accurate manner, how can we figure out what is

useful?

 

 

On Wednesday, June 26, 2002, at 10:57 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> One cannot, however, just give vent to opinions or ideas about

> medicinals out of one's head without some clinical record, source

> material, or confirmation from other practitioners, and have it stick.

> I don't think we've developed enough as a profession in the West to

> confirm what we are finding or doing

> >>>You don't think we have some practitioners with vast experience

> seeing patients? Their experience is just as important as any body

> else's. If it is real experience and not just Book writing etc.

> alon

>

[Guest guest]

And, to add to that. . . .

 

The Wiseman dictionary is well on its way to be adapted in the PRC as a

major translation tool . Already several translators use it.

 

 

On Friday, June 28, 2002, at 08:53 AM, 1 wrote:

 

> , WMorris116@A... wrote:

>

> Bear in mind, the standardized use of Wiseman

> > is still very much a subculture for Chinese practitioners

>

> Will

>

> Not sure what you mean by this.  Most docs from PRC are

> required to read the chinese version of Fundamentals before

> starting school.  Perhaps they are unfamiliar with his translation

> terms (is this what you mean?), but his material is most faithful

> to their actual education.

>

 

>

>