Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 Here goes my first posting to this group, I've been lurking for awhile... My reading of the Year of the Horse informs this Rat that he should " avoid your favorite sort of intellectual argument, as the losses will be great. Instead, nourish yourself and wait " .....and so I have, until now.... I have a patient who I have been 'sharing' with another Chinese herbalist/acupuncturist, although I didn't really put it together until today what that meant. The other herbalist came over to confer with me about what she was doing, what herbs I had been giving, our diagnosis, etc. We really had about the same diagnosis - the patient, in her late 60's, has advanced lung carcinoma and a TCM diagnosis of dual Lung and Kidney yin vacuity and secondarily Spleen qi vacuity. But my post is more about dosages.. I had been giving her 2 KPC granule formulas (with about 10% single herb granule modification) for this, in the total range of at least 10 grams per day, figuring that at 5:1 she was getting about 50 grams a day - or 100 grams every 2 days. I consider that a minimum acceptable dose considering she was fully utilizing the formula - and that if I was making her a decoction it would probably be at least 150+ grams for a 2 day supply. What concerned me was the dosing range that the other practitioner used - 1 teaspoon, 2X a day of a prepared tincture. I asked her how she thought 2 tsps. per day would translate into using bulk herbals. She didn't like that! She defensively stated was all she used for all her clients for over 10 years (I've been practicing 15 btw) - and that was what worked best for her. Her formula was similar to mine, and made up entirely of tinctured single herbal concentrates from Australia, mixed to make up the formula (which was also priced at about $60 for a 2 week supply). This was all that my patient would have received with this woman as far as TCM herbology - and what many of her clients nationally probably think is the cutting edge of using TCM to treat their cancers. The question for the academy - is this woman practicing below the professional standards? Or is there a school of thought to be taken seriously for giving 1 teaspoon of an herbal tincture twice a day - a form of 'homeopathic' TCM herbology perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2002 Report Share Posted June 29, 2002 , tcmguy <tcmguy@m...> wrote: > > The question for the academy - is this woman practicing below the > professional standards? Or is there a school of thought to be taken > seriously for giving 1 teaspoon of an herbal tincture twice a day - a form > of 'homeopathic' TCM herbology perhaps? I have investigated this as much as humanly possible. No one has ever provided me a single citation or even an anecdote from a bonafide family tradition that supports this type of prescribing. It also flies in the face of modern pharmacology. Tinctures at this price have huge profit margins and little labor involved. If she truly gets results using this method, she should put up or shut up. Where are the documented lab results? Funny, how all these people can cure anything under the sun, yet in the past 15 years, I haven't seen a single case study written by an american practitioner that had this type of documentation for a cancer patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2002 Report Share Posted June 29, 2002 Todd - Have you read the works of Eli Jones, MD, He was an eclectic practitioner from the turn of the century. Here is an example of a successful physician in the area of cancer treatment using low doses as a matter of course. Dose range is an area where people often disagree. Remember, the famous practitioner Ye Tian-shi? He was known for minimal dosing. While I agree with your dosing policies in general, there will be people who respond better to low dose ranges. In addition I think there is a place for moderate physiological dosing styles rather than the dramatic pharmacological styles such as those that are being practiced in parts of China close to Korea. Will Morris Funny, how all > these people can cure anything under the sun, yet in the past 15 > years, I haven't seen a single case study written by an american > practitioner that had this type of documentation for a cancer > patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2002 Report Share Posted June 29, 2002 Can anyone give me a contact number or address for the company in Australia that supplies the herbs mentioned in recent email corresspondence? thank you. Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 , tcmguy <tcmguy@m...> wrote: > We really had about the same diagnosis - the patient, in her late 60's, has advanced lung carcinoma and a TCM diagnosis of dual Lung and Kidney yin vacuity and secondarily Spleen qi vacuity. But my post is more about dosages.. Based on what you describe---if the formula is for lung and kidney yin and spleen qi vacuity---unless there are uniquely expensive herbs or some sort of elaborate, special, or spagyric preparation to her tincture, she is clearly and simply gouging the patient financially. And, her dosage may only be justified if the formula has some super concentration to it. Ask your patient what sort of story or rationalization goes with that other formula. But there is second problem here too, in terms of diagnosis. Where does the " advanced cancer " play in this TCM diagnosis? Patients may have dual Lung and Kidney yin vacuity with secondary spleen qi vacuity simply from aging. Those problems don't cause, are not necessarily part of, nor may be uniquely identified with the pathology of cancer. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: Funny, how all > these people can cure anything under the sun, yet in the past 15 > years, I haven't seen a single case study written by an american > practitioner that had this type of documentation for a cancer > patient. : Are there any finding from Chinese language journals? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Will: Has anyone today been able to reproduce Jones' success with cancer? Jim Ramholz , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Have you read the works of Eli Jones, MD, He was an eclectic practitioner from the turn of the century. Here is an example of a successful physician in the area of cancer treatment using low doses as a matter of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 THere was some older practitioners who followed him and then practiced with success. Then - legal climates prevailed. Will Will: Has anyone today been able to reproduce Jones' success with cancer? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Z'ev - You are right, Ye did not use homeopathic dosing ranges -- he used physiological dose ranges and was not married to it. However, he was famous and respected even to this day for a low dose style. He was also famous for choosing food remedies as opposed to formulas. And - are you suggesting that larger dose ranges require a less sophisticated or accurate diagnosis? I would think that engaging pharmacological dose ranges would mandate a greater level of accuracy to prevent iatrogenic complications whereas the low dose requires accuracy to be effective. Will Morris I have Dr. Ye's case history book, and while his dosages are comparatively low in many cases, he is using much stronger preparations (decoctions and powders) and higher dosages than what is described in this case. I think there is a place for low-dose (as distinguished from homeopathically prepared dose) medicine, but it takes a high level of skill and as Jim points out, a very sophisticated diagnosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Z'ev - Please reread the question. Will I am hardly suggesting that lower dosage ranges require a less sophisticated or accurate diagnosis. In fact, I think the opposite, more sophistication and accuracy are necessary. On Sunday, June 30, 2002, at 08:27 AM, WMorris116 wrote: > Z'ev - > > And - are you suggesting that larger dose ranges require a less > sophisticated or accurate diagnosis? I would think that engaging > pharmacological dose ranges would mandate a greater level of accuracy > to prevent iatrogenic complications whereas the low dose requires > accuracy to be effective. > > Will Morris > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Z'ev -- My comments are restricted to dosing policy and the usefulness of a wide range of dosing strategies. I am not making commentary on this particular case. Nor on the topic of homeopathy. I was responding to Todd's statement on a paucity of case records or research for low dose ranges. However, on the homeopathic front, Murray and Pizzorno's text cites effective homeopathic research and one case on cancer in rats with cell salts. Hunkering down into specific dose ranges out of personal opinion, comfort, or habit -- even if it is a collectively agreed upon habit -- can interfere with optimal case management based on real patient needs. Will Morris But as Jim points out, the Chinese diagnosis listed in the e-mail hardly describes the probable situation of late-stage lung cancer. In addition, how many of us have advanced skills in diagnosing and treating cancer patients? The e-mail also doesn't state if the patient is using western medications. Adding a small amount of supplementing herbal medicinals is not going to have much effect in a terminal disease, especially if strong drugs are being taken. Finally, in terminal situations like this, how does one know if you are helping the patient's medical condition if they are at death's door, as the unknown practitioner in the e-mail seems to claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Todd: I have investigated this as much as humanly possible. (Re: homeopathic herbology) A Response: You've certainly demonstrated that your investigation of issues is pretty thorough. And, I believe that, other than doing your own extensive series of well designed studies, the best way to know if something works is to use it, personally if you are willing. It is not practical to obtain all of the information we need to know on safety and effectiveness of medicinals by relying on clinical studies or the limited written transmission and transmuted verbal teachings of someone else's intelligent experimentation on their patients. The history of medicine recounts one long experimentation that we are perpetuating. I have personally used homeopathically potentized TCM herbal formulas for over 10 years. I send the herbal formula to a homeopathic manufacturer and have them prepare multiple potency tinctures of the TCM formulation. I started this practice as an experiment with some of my very environmentally sensitive patients who could not tolerate most herbal preparations even in low dosages. There were two in particular, one an MD and another an ex-corporate exec, both of whom were living out of the back of their cars in remote areas outside the city. The potentized formulas in some cases did help to control the hypersensitivity of their very toxic systems, so I continued the experiment. After having used them on many occasions now I can say that the tonic formulas do not work well. The ones that work best are those that are designed to reduce Excess/Fullness/Repletion(?). I personally still use one formula designed to reduce damp heat that seems to take the edge off nervous hyperactivity related to damp heat induced insomnia. I find it particularly useful right before bed. However most of the potentized formulas are way too mild in their effect to reverse the pathogenic course of most chronic health conditions. But that's just one practitioner's experience. Original Message: No one has ever provided me a single citation or even an anecdote from a bonafide family tradition that supports this type of prescribing. It also flies in the face of modern pharmacology. Tinctures at this price have huge profit margins and little labor involved. If she truly gets results using this method, she should put up or shut up. Where are the documented lab results? Funny, how all these people can cure anything under the sun, yet in the past 15 years, I haven't seen a single case study written by an american practitioner that had this type of documentation for a cancer patient. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Not sure if I missed a previous post. A herbal company that I am interested in is Cathay Herbal- True Medicines from China, the address: Cathay Herbal Laboratories, PO Box 878 Haymarket NSW 2000, Australia #1-800-622-042 ? email cathlabs I am curious if anyone on the list has any familiarity with this company, would appreciate comments. - thomas berryman Saturday, June 29, 2002 9:19 PM Re: homeopathic herbology Can anyone give me a contact number or address for the company in Australia that supplies the herbs mentioned in recent email corresspondence? thank you. Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 stephen wrote: > I have personally used homeopathically potentized TCM herbal formulas for > over 10 > years. I send the herbal formula to a homeopathic manufacturer and > have them prepare multiple potency tinctures of the TCM formulation. > I started this practice as an experiment with some of my very > environmentally sensitive patients who could not tolerate most herbal > preparations even in low dosages. There were two in particular, one > an MD and another an ex-corporate exec, both of whom were living out > of the back of their cars in remote areas outside the city. Can't argue with clinical success, but I've often wondered about these really severe environmental sensitivities. I've always considered them a somatization of some other pathology, likely of an emotional nature. After all, the back seat of a car is a whole lot more toxic an environment than most other suburban areas, at least in my estimation. That " new car smell " ain't something that grows on trees, you know. : ) > The ones that work best are > those that are designed to reduce Excess/Fullness/Repletion(?). I > personally still use one formula designed to reduce damp heat that > seems to take the edge off nervous hyperactivity related to damp heat > induced insomnia. So is this formula a homeopathic dosage (extremely dilute) and yet retains the TCM treatment principle of drying damp and clearing heat? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Al, Al wrote: ...I've often wondered about these really severe environmental sensitivities. I've always considered them a somatization of some other pathology, likely of an emotional nature. After all, the back seat of a car is a whole lot more toxic an environment than most other suburban areas... Resp: I'm sure that emotional factors play into a fair percentage, but I would be reluctant to lump all such cases into any single category. Yet I agree with your perspective that the hypersensitivity is a consequence not the cause. Other not un-common etiologies that I've seen involve parasitic/anthelmintic infection, chemical and/or metals toxicity, or dental material aggravations, any one of which, due to their effects on the liver, spleen, nervous system, and mucosally based immune response system in the GI and Respiratory areas, can result in a hyper-allergic state. BTW, they drove old cars and slept outside on the ground as much as possible. Some days that even sounds appealing! one formula designed to reduce damp heat that > seems to take the edge off nervous hyperactivity related to damp heat > induced insomnia. Al wrote: So is this formula a homeopathic dosage (extremely dilute) and yet retains the TCM treatment principle of drying damp and clearing heat? Resp: In terms of being extremely dilute, I don't see how the physical presence of the chemical components in the homeopathic preparation could have any significant direct physiological influence given that the residual amounts are so miniscule. I don't have a defendable scientific explanation for the results obtained, but I would like to get that strong and consistent of a placebo effect in other circumstances, yet don't. My experience is that these preparations have similar, though more limited, physiological influences as you would expect from a TCM perspective using the herbal materials. In the case of the Resolve damp heat formula, I believe that a flare-up of the effects of damp heat on the nervous system, triggered by physical activity, were being relieved, but that the damp heat was not being resolved. However, in terms of this one symptomatic pattern, the effect of the potentized preparation has repeatedly shown to provide more effective relief of damp heat stimulated insomnia than the exact same herbal formula in prepared granules. And, the palliative effects obtained in a condition such as this are certainly not significant enough in most cases to alter the course of a chronic disease state in such a way that it should be considered a long-term treatment of choice. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > I have personally used homeopathically potentized TCM herbal formulas for > over 10 > years. though I am skeptical of homeopathy, it does appear to have worked in my experience. However, a potentized remedy is different than drop doses of an unsuccussed tinture. Right? After having used them on many occasions now I can say > that the tonic formulas do not work well. The ones that work best are > those that are designed to reduce Excess/Fullness/ Repletion(?). that has seemed to be the case with all homeopathics, IMO. no yin essence to them, so better at moving and regulating. > However most of the potentized formulas are way too mild in their > effect to reverse the pathogenic course of most chronic health > conditions. thanks for the experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2002 Report Share Posted July 4, 2002 It seems to me that what the other practitioner is doing is giving a nostrum. . .i.e., a weak dose of herbs below therapeutic range that would have more placebo effect than anything else. It certainly is 'safe' for cancer patients. . . .it doesn't do anything! Homepathic remedies are made according to stringent criteria, of trituration and potency, and are prescribed according to a rigorous systematic approach that takes time and dedication to learn. It cannot be practiced casually, in the same way Chinese medicine cannot. On Friday, June 28, 2002, at 10:45 PM, tcmguy wrote: > I had been giving her 2 KPC granule formulas (with about 10% single herb > granule modification) for this, in the total range of at least 10 grams > per > day, figuring that at 5:1 she was getting about 50 grams a day - or 100 > grams every 2 days. I consider that a minimum acceptable dose > considering > she was fully utilizing the formula - and that if I was making her a > decoction it would probably be at least 150+ grams for a 2 day supply. > > What concerned me was the dosing range that the other practitioner > used - 1 > teaspoon, 2X a day of a prepared tincture. I asked her how she > thought 2 > tsps. per day would translate into using bulk herbals. She didn't like > that! > She defensively stated was all she used for all her clients for over 10 > years (I've been practicing 15 btw) - and that was what worked best for > her. > Her formula was similar to mine, and made up entirely of tinctured > single > herbal concentrates from Australia, mixed to make up the formula (which > was > also priced at about $60 for a 2 week supply). This was all that my > patient > would have received with this woman as far as TCM herbology - and what > many > of her clients nationally probably think is the cutting edge of using > TCM to > treat their cancers. > > The question for the academy - is this woman practicing below the > professional standards? Or is there a school of thought to be taken > seriously for giving 1 teaspoon of an herbal tincture twice a day - a > form > of 'homeopathic' TCM herbology perhaps? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2002 Report Share Posted July 4, 2002 Another physician who had records of great success with cancer was Dr. Grimmer, M.D., a homeopathic physician. There are several books of his available. Today, Dr. Ramankrishnan, M.D. from India does extensive work with cancer patients. On Sunday, June 30, 2002, at 12:56 AM, jramholz wrote: > Will: > > Has anyone today been able to reproduce Jones' success with cancer? > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > , WMorris116@A... wrote: > > Have you read the works of Eli Jones, MD, He was an eclectic > practitioner from the turn of the century. Here is an example of a > successful physician in the area of cancer treatment using low doses > as a matter of course. > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2002 Report Share Posted July 4, 2002 I have Dr. Ye's case history book, and while his dosages are comparatively low in many cases, he is using much stronger preparations (decoctions and powders) and higher dosages than what is described in this case. I think there is a place for low-dose (as distinguished from homeopathically prepared dose) medicine, but it takes a high level of skill and as Jim points out, a very sophisticated diagnosis. I agree about some patients needing low doses. I have a few patients that do very well and react very strongly to less than 10% of the usual dose of herbal medicines that I give other patients. On Sunday, June 30, 2002, at 12:49 AM, WMorris116 wrote: - > > Have you read the works of Eli Jones, MD, He was an eclectic > practitioner from the turn of the century. Here is an example of a > successful physician in the area of cancer treatment using low doses as > a matter of course. Dose range is an area where people often disagree. > Remember, the famous practitioner Ye Tian-shi? He was known for minimal > dosing. > > While I agree with your dosing policies in general, there will be > people who respond better to low dose ranges. In addition I think there > is a place for moderate physiological dosing styles rather than the > dramatic pharmacological styles such as those that are being practiced > in parts of China close to Korea. > > Will Morris > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2002 Report Share Posted July 4, 2002 Will, I am hardly suggesting that lower dosage ranges require a less sophisticated or accurate diagnosis. In fact, I think the opposite, more sophistication and accuracy are necessary. But as Jim points out, the Chinese diagnosis listed in the e-mail hardly describes the probable situation of late-stage lung cancer. In addition, how many of us have advanced skills in diagnosing and treating cancer patients? The e-mail also doesn't state if the patient is using western medications. Adding a small amount of supplementing herbal medicinals is not going to have much effect in a terminal disease, especially if strong drugs are being taken. Finally, in terminal situations like this, how does one know if you are helping the patient's medical condition if they are at death's door, as the unknown practitioner in the e-mail seems to claim? It is clear that there is a very wide range of strategies and treatments in Chinese medicine, including high and low dose ranges, and food remedies, which Sun Si-miao and many others also supported. There are other factors to consider, however, in books such as Ye's case histories, such as strength of the medicinals, sensitivity of patients, and strength of disease factors. Xu Da-cun's text, translated by Paul Unschuld as " Forgotten Traditions of Ancient " discusses several of these issues. On Sunday, June 30, 2002, at 08:27 AM, WMorris116 wrote: > Z'ev - > > You are right, Ye did not use homeopathic dosing ranges -- he used > physiological dose ranges and was not married to it. However, he was > famous and respected even to this day for a low dose style. He was also > famous for choosing food remedies as opposed to formulas. > > And - are you suggesting that larger dose ranges require a less > sophisticated or accurate diagnosis? I would think that engaging > pharmacological dose ranges would mandate a greater level of accuracy > to prevent iatrogenic complications whereas the low dose requires > accuracy to be effective. > > Will Morris > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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