Herpes attributed to herbal formulations

[Guest guest]

I now have a second patient that is absolutely convinced that herbs

given at the student clinic have reactivated herpes. I finally got

her to take some Long Dan Xie Gan Tang by telling her it was

specifically for herpes, and it will probably treat her main

complaint, which I will go into further soon. But I do not think it

would be a good idea to keep her on this patent for more than a week

or two because of age and underlying blood deficiency.

 

Both this patient and the other patient were treated by others and

given Kidney tonfying formulas at one point. For example, the latest

patient was given Qi Ju Di Huang Wan. I suppose I can see how a

tonifier would reactivate a latent pathogen in the lower jiao. (The

LWDHW part of the prescription)However, the patient I hope to be

working with has also been given Chai Hu Shu Gan San and a variant of

Tian Men Gou Teng Wan. (If you haven't guessed yet, she has

headaches). She admits to having gotten little relief from her visits

to the clinic so far, but I do not think she will improve much if she

refuses herbs again.

 

Of course there are other factors to a herpes outbreak such as

frequency of intercourse, or unhappiness with one's partner, but

since this was our first meeting I did not feel it wise to address

these issues. She says she did not have a herpes attack for many

years until she began taking Chinese herbs.

 

Some background:

 

dental hygeniest, very pale, thin, tense muscles, late 50s.

 

Main complaint: HA. She remembers having bad headaches even in high

school. She now has between 3 to 5 headaches a day. She takes

Excedrin plus (Aspirin, Tylenol, and Codeine) to control, and

sometimes Amitrex (sp?) a migraine prescription which I think changes

vascularization. It is unclear whether she just has one continuous

headache, where the pain waxes and wanes due to her medication, or

several headaches. They involve the eyes, temporal region, and

occiput. They are throbbing, sometimes stabbing in nature.When

pressed, she thinks they start behind the eyes, but is not sure.

Because of the amount of medications she has taken long term, she had

a bleeding stomach ulcer which required an operation in 1998. She

says she was quite anemic during this time. She denies dizziness, but

then says the Amitrex sometimes makes her dizzy.

 

States energy level, appetite are good. No hot flashes etc, but is on

Prempro which may mask those signs. Denies lbp, weak knees, alcohol

consumption.

 

Long term constipation, with BM every 3 to 4 days.

 

Pulse on right side thin and very wiry.

Left deep and slippery.

 

I think she has liver qi stagnation and obstruction in the liver and

gallbladder channels, leading to Liver Yang rising. The background is

blood deficiency. Because of the long term nature of the problem and

the intense pain I would think there is some blood stasis as well.

 

I think the Long Dan Xie Gan Tang will not address her blood

deficiency or bowel movement problems.

 

I don't like patents, but because of her conviction that herbs cause

her herpes to break out, I was thinking about changing her to 12 tabs

Long Dan Xie Gan Tang in the AM, and then 6 pills Si Wu Tang, and 6

Tao Ren pills in PM, (will slightly move blood as well as help BM)

once I win her confidence.

 

Any comments about this or herpes outbreaks " due to herbs " in general

would be appreciated. Hope you all enjoyed the case.

 

Regards, Gabrielle

[Guest guest]

, " gabriellemathieu "

> Long term constipation, with BM every 3 to 4 days.

>

> Pulse on right side thin and very wiry.

> Left deep and slippery.

>

> I think she has liver qi stagnation and obstruction in the liver

and gallbladder channels, leading to Liver Yang rising. The

background is blood deficiency. Because of the long term nature of

the problem and the intense pain I would think there is some blood

stasis as well.

 

 

Your thinking sounds correct here. With these pulses (and generally

for migraines), tonification formulas in this type of condition can

easily aggravate the liver yang rising situation---even a herpes

outbreak. If you're interested, privately send me your mailing

address and I'll send you a sample of my migraine formula.

 

After getting the headaches under control you also might want to try

Health Concerns Astra Isatis, too. It is fairly effective for herpes

outbreaks and shouldn't aggravate the headaches.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " gabriellemathieu " <

gabriellemathieu> wrote:

I suppose I can see how a

> tonifier would reactivate a latent pathogen in the lower jiao.

 

assuming that pathomechanism is correct. and even then, only

the wrong tonic would reactivate. the right tonic would keep the

pathogen suppressed according to this theory.

 

She says she did not have a herpes attack for many

> years until she began taking Chinese herbs.

 

this is telling. the question is whether yin vacuity is a correct dx.

What did her tongue look like? My guess would be that the case

is more complex and any prescription would have to address qi

xu, yin xu, maybe dampheat, blood stasis, etc. and failing to

address the actual complexity of a patient her age could easily

reactivate the pathogen. Especially if dampheat was present

and not properly addressed.

 

>

> I think the Long Dan Xie Gan Tang will not address her blood

> deficiency or bowel movement problems.

 

It may also exacerbate her vacuities and make things worse. I

would do whatever the four exams of TCM indicate, being careful

to address both root and branch if necessary. the best results I

have seen with long term remission of herpes is this method.

Others on this list agree.

 

>

> Any comments about this or herpes outbreaks " due to herbs "

in general

> would be appreciated

 

 

I am concerned that your method may be too focused on excess.

Unless she is actually having a herpes outbreak or in the

prodromal phase with clearcut signs of dampheat, I no longer

use long dan xie gan tang. Arguably, in the prodromal phase,

depending on the symptoms, formulas originally designed for

dampheat in the sanjiao might make better sense. I am thinking

particularly of the malaise.

 

also, before assuming toxin or dampheat is present, get a very

precise description of the lesion, outbreak and prodrome. One

patient I became aware of the other day is being treated with

tonics and japanese style meridian acupuncture. No outbreaks

in 8 months after getting them a few times a month for many

years. she never presented with any dampheat, but was treated

as such with no results for 6 years prior (long dan xie gan tang

ever few weeks, at her acupuncturist's recommendation).

Interestingly, her lesions were limited to a single flat, white,

mildly painful sore. I have since found that many herpes

patients experience such " yin " lesions, apparently further ruling

out the idea of dampheat toxin in these cases. Though such

lesions may still be due to dampheat if one considers lesions

like miliaria alba, a white, often flat non-ooozing lesion that may

be caused by dampheat brewing, according to Guohui Liu.

 

todd

[Guest guest]

You are right. Her case is much more complex than Long Dan Xie Gan

Tang. I only want to get her trust in herbs back. That's why I don't

like patents anyway. They are harder to apply in complicated cases.

Her tongue is fairly non-descript and she has no signs of yin

deficiency, but she also isn't talking a lot (short answers-

" fine " , " fine " )because I sense she doesn't really think we can help

her anymore.

 

I'll ask her more about her herpes outbreaks and their character when

I see her again. Hopefully she will have made some short term

improvements.

 

Reagrds, Gabrielle

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " gabriellemathieu " <

> gabriellemathieu> wrote:

> I suppose I can see how a

> > tonifier would reactivate a latent pathogen in the lower jiao.

>

> assuming that pathomechanism is correct. and even then, only

> the wrong tonic would reactivate. the right tonic would keep the

> pathogen suppressed according to this theory.

>

> She says she did not have a herpes attack for many

> > years until she began taking Chinese herbs.

>

> this is telling. the question is whether yin vacuity is a correct

dx.

> What did her tongue look like? My guess would be that the case

> is more complex and any prescription would have to address qi

> xu, yin xu, maybe dampheat, blood stasis, etc. and failing to

> address the actual complexity of a patient her age could easily

> reactivate the pathogen. Especially if dampheat was present

> and not properly addressed.

>

> >

> > I think the Long Dan Xie Gan Tang will not address her blood

> > deficiency or bowel movement problems.

>

> It may also exacerbate her vacuities and make things worse. I

> would do whatever the four exams of TCM indicate, being careful

> to address both root and branch if necessary. the best results I

> have seen with long term remission of herpes is this method.

> Others on this list agree.

>

> >

> > Any comments about this or herpes outbreaks " due to herbs "

> in general

> > would be appreciated

>

>

> I am concerned that your method may be too focused on excess.

> Unless she is actually having a herpes outbreak or in the

> prodromal phase with clearcut signs of dampheat, I no longer

> use long dan xie gan tang. Arguably, in the prodromal phase,

> depending on the symptoms, formulas originally designed for

> dampheat in the sanjiao might make better sense. I am thinking

> particularly of the malaise.

>

> also, before assuming toxin or dampheat is present, get a very

> precise description of the lesion, outbreak and prodrome. One

> patient I became aware of the other day is being treated with

> tonics and japanese style meridian acupuncture. No outbreaks

> in 8 months after getting them a few times a month for many

> years. she never presented with any dampheat, but was treated

> as such with no results for 6 years prior (long dan xie gan tang

> ever few weeks, at her acupuncturist's recommendation).

> Interestingly, her lesions were limited to a single flat, white,

> mildly painful sore. I have since found that many herpes

> patients experience such " yin " lesions, apparently further ruling

> out the idea of dampheat toxin in these cases. Though such

> lesions may still be due to dampheat if one considers lesions

> like miliaria alba, a white, often flat non-ooozing lesion that may

> be caused by dampheat brewing, according to Guohui Liu.

>

> todd

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> depending on the symptoms, formulas originally designed for

> dampheat in the sanjiao might make better sense. I am thinking

> particularly of the malaise.

>

I have not learned any formulas for damp heat in the sanjiao.

Probably just a matter of terminology. What formulas do you have in

mind?

[Guest guest]

I have suspected this for a long time.

in my first years of studying i decided to take a tonifying patent

formula to boost my kidneys, although i knew i had interior heat

togather with damp-heat s/s i thought it wont be to much harm to

tonify myself a bit.

the formula i took was Astra Essence:

Huang Qi \ Sha Yuan Ji Li \ Nu Zhen Zi \He Shou Wu \ Gou Qi Zi \

Shu Di \ Du Zhong \ Tu Si Zi \ Ren Shen \ Dang Gui \ Shan Zhu Yu

 

After about a week of taking the formula i have experienced my

first herpes zoster outbreak.

i could actually feel how taking the formula made the herpes worse.

when i stopped taking the formula the herpes disappeared very rapidly.

since then i had no recurrences.

a very painful way of learning the cost of tonifying prominent

excess...

 

Danny.L

 

 

 

> Any comments about this or herpes outbreaks " due to herbs " in

general

> would be appreciated. Hope you all enjoyed the case.

>

> Regards, Gabrielle