Teaspoon herbology (was homeopathic herbology)

[Guest guest]

, tcmguy <tcmguy@m...> wrote:

 

> Does anyone in the group have experience with this being a

positive

> contribution of Chinese medicine to an eclectic mix?....

 

Ken

 

whether we can postulate the influence of Eli Jones or other 19th

century mavericks upon this doctor is besides the point. I know

plenty of chinese herbalists who prescribe low dose liquid

products and very few of them have ever even heard of Eli Jones

or the eclectics. Most are influenced by marketing, convenience,

profit. the question is whether this is the standard of care for our

profession. Even if we can provide idiosyncratic sources to

support this position (and those sources should not have vested

interests in a liquid product line!!!), it does not belong at the heart

of our profession. the whole thrust of both chinese antiquity and

modern practice in china has been towards pharmacological

prescribing, especially for chronic illness with organic structural

changes.

 

It is one thing to suggest that we use small doses to help a

patient self actualize or some such thing. this type of human

potential therapy has never been prevalent in mainstream

chinese medicine (perhaps in taoism, etc.), so there is no solid

written precedent. But when it comes to treating most diseases,

it seems either ignorant, egotistical or greedy to suggest that a

nonstandard approach to dosage is desirable. Fact is that

practitioners who don't burden their patients with foul brews

generally do better in practice than those who do. If this

practitioner gets results, it is probably from the 20 other things

her patients are taking, not the chinese herbs, IMO.

 

Except for a few very iffy studies on homeopathy (which were

contradicted by other studies), there is no evidence in the

research literature I can find for effective treatment of any

disease using doses of herbs below the pharmacological

threshold. Stephen, were you suggesting otherwise?

 

[Guest guest]

, " stephen " <stephen@b...>

wrote:

>

> there is no evidence in the

> research literature I can find for effective treatment of any

> disease using doses of herbs below the pharmacological

> threshold. Stephen, were you suggesting otherwise?

>

>

> I was pointing out three things: One, that low dosing,

even to the

> homeopathic extreme, can have a measurable physiological

effect;

 

measured how?

 

>

> Resp: Very definitely. However I did not find a " like cures like "

effect

> when potentized.

 

Interesting, because most of the remedies in Boericke clearly do

not operate on like cures like, either. Remedies like echinacea

and goldenseal are used the same homeopathically or

pharmacologically. I have speculated on this phenomena at

http://www..org/homeo.html

 

[Guest guest]

Stephen:

 

Have you (or anyone on the forum) tried homeopathic cancer remedies

from New Vistas? I used one of their products on a patient who came

from Texas for treatment. The remedy had a positive effect on her

cancer pulse (I checked them before and after).

 

But since she is taking a number of different things, and I rarly

use a homeopathic product, I can't attribute any long-lasting

benefits to the rememdy alone.

 

Interestingly, New Vista also has a Bear Gallbladder remedy that

works like bear gb but is very mild.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote:

>

> there is no evidence in the

> research literature I can find for effective treatment of any

> disease using doses of herbs below the pharmacological

> threshold. Stephen, were you suggesting otherwise?

>

>

> I was pointing out three things: One, that low dosing,

even to the

> homeopathic extreme, can have a measurable physiological effect;

2) In most

> cases, from my experience using a very broad spectrum of dosages,

> pharmacological dosing, generally in the range of 6 to 15 grams of

extract

> per day, will be required to change the pathogenic nature of

chronic

> disease, and 3) That some patients, depending on their level of

sensitivity,

> will require that you start on a lower dose with less frequent dose

> consumption, and it can still be of therapeutic benefit.

>

>

> though I am skeptical of homeopathy, it does appear to have

> worked in my experience. However, a potentized remedy is

> different than drop doses of an unsuccussed tinture. Right?

>

> Resp: Very definitely. However I did not find a " like cures

like " effect

> when potentized.

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing

> in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services,

> including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

 

> Question: are these tinctures or extracts? What are the

processing methods?

 

Answer: They are extracts, again at 5:1, I have no knowledge of

the company (australian) that makes them - and again, they are

individual herbs that she just blends to make formula, i.e. not

processed together

 

> Question #2: How can someone give herbal medicinals for a

partial diagnosis, and wouldn't that imply a complete diagnosis,

since the herbs were given for lung/kd yin and sp qi xu?

 

Answer: Again, the post was not about our diagnosis, but about

the method/amount of administration. The practitioners (and my)

diagnosis was Qi deficiency, concurrent deficiency of Qi and Yin,

especially of the Lungs, with herbs being used to disperse

lumps and hardenings (her words, probably not p.c. Wiseman

terminology) and Clear Heat and Transform Phlegm. SHe also

used non-Chinese herbs such as drosera and yew tree extract

in her formula.

 

 

> Question # 3: What is a yin/yang 'tonic'?

Answer: I was primarily alluding to the use of different methods

of dosage being used for different conditions - rather than using

1 tsp. 2X for all clients, as this practitioner was using. I would

trust tinctures more for vitalizing blood or moving stagnant qi

than for moistening yin. Somehow when I make a bulk-herbal

formula utilizing a large amount of herbs like Sheng Di, Shan

Yao, or Huang Jing, I can't imagine how a small amount of

tincture could carry the same effect....

[Guest guest]

, " stephen " <stephen@b...>

wrote:

 

... that low dosing, even to the homeopathic extreme, can have a measurable

physiological

effect;

 

measured how?

 

 

Resp: If I personally do strenuous exercise in the evening, past 7:30 or

8PM, which I tend to do because I like the twilight and in the Summer

because the days are too hot, I have a very hard time falling asleep without

taking a dose of a resolve damp heat (RDH) formula in homeopathically

potentized form, after I exercise. I have the same RDH formula in powdered

extract that has never imparted the same benefit. I have also tried taking

bu yin herbs, the RDH formula, and other herbs before exercising but the

difficult sleep pattern only responds to the potentized version of RDH when

taken within 15 to 30 minutes after exercising.

 

 

Interesting, because most of the remedies in Boericke clearly do

not operate on like cures like, either. Remedies like echinacea

and goldenseal are used the same homeopathically or

pharmacologically. I have speculated on this phenomena at

http://www..org/homeo.html

 

Resp: My personal theory is that homeopathically prepared substances trick

the body into thinking that it is receiving a substantial dose of the

homeopathically prepared substance when in fact it is not. The body then

reacts to that influence by counteracting it, if in the crude form the

substance causes aggravation, or in a positive way if the substance in its

crude form provides a welcome influence. Therefore sarcodes would not

cause healthy organ or tissue rejection and nosodes would instigate the

anti-pathogenic factor that naturally responds to counteract the influence

of the nosode. Just my opinion.

Stephen

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Have you (or anyone on the forum) tried homeopathic cancer remedies

from New Vistas?

 

Jim, I tried these remedies many years ago, if it is the same company I'm

thinking of. My recollection is that the effect was not significant enough

to make them a treatment of choice.

Stephen

 

 

 

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday, July 2, 2002, at 10:26 AM, tcmguy wrote:

 

>

> In reply to the comments on my first post,

>

>

> 1. I should have titled my post " teaspoon (or microdose) herbology " ,

> rather

> than 'homeopathic' -   certainly the practitioner didn't have any sort

> of

> homeopathic or potentizing principles in mind here - we're talking about

> mixing together 5:1 tinctures to make a variation of standard

> formulas...

 

Question: are these tinctures or extracts? What are the processing

methods?

>

>

> 2.I didn't mean to imply that I had given a complete diagnosis by

> mentioning

> her Lung and Kidney yin vacuity with Spleen Qi xu, - which of course are

> common enough with aging. Actually, that was the diagnosis the other

> practitioner gave when she showed me her formula, and not the totality

> of my

> view of her condition  - but it was close enough to being what we needed

> most to keep our eyes on - since she has a very intense and dry cough

> as a

> sequalae to radiation - and needs both strong and cool yin

> supplementation

> and the means to assimilate it.  I mention that aspect of her case

> because

> it was along those lines that her formula and one of my formulas met.

 

Question #2: How can someone give herbal medicinals for a partial

diagnosis, and wouldn't that imply a complete diagnosis, since the herbs

were given for lung/kd yin and sp qi xu?

>

>

> 5. More clearly, I am interested in the ramifications of using

> only 1 tsp. of TCM-diagnosed blended tincture (again presumably a

> concentrate of 5:1) twice a day for all of her clients, the vast

> majority of

> who have some kind of advanced cancer. Especially in a case like this

> where

> a yin-tonic is called for, I just can't see how that kind of dose can be

> said to be worth anything. And again, we aren't talking about

> homeopathy.

> Does anyone in the group have experience with this being a positive

> contribution of Chinese medicine to an eclectic mix?....

 

Question # 3: What is a yin/yang 'tonic'?