chai hu and flavor

[Guest guest]

Andy Ellis has a great article on chai hu in his May 2002 Cinnabar Creek

newsletter that gets mailed out from golden flower herbs. One of the

things he notes is that chai hu was not attributed a spicy flavor until

quite recently. Up through the end of the ming, it was considered only

bitter. Since only the 18th century have some texts considered it spicy.

Andy says that " It appears that the bitter sapor [flavor] was sufficient

in earlier times to justify (italics mine) the ability of chai hu to

disperse a pathogen from the fleshy exterior but by the qing dynasty an

acrid [spicy] sapor served as a better reminder (italics mine again) of

this function. "

 

He then quotes a jin-yuan materia medica and a qing one to show how one

justifies chai hu's functions by reference to the bitter flavor and the

other by reference to spicy. But consider the italicized words above.

Justify and reminder. This seems to lend support ot the position that

flavors are often assignments based on the prevailing theories of the day,

rather than some inherent " quality " of the herb, per se. Rather than

this being the way nature works, it is perhaps more the way the human mind

works.

 

It was ironic that I read this article, because since my last posts on

flavor, I have consciously made an increasing effort to use this learning

tool in both class and clinic. In the past, as many of you know, my

emphasis has been on functions and indications. I still consider the most

important data. But along the way, and quite surprising to me, I found my

frequent references to the flavors was influencing my clinical practice.

Yang's Comparison and Characteristics and Liu's Warm Diseases have both

played a large role in this development as both authors make continual

reference to flavors, temperatures, directions, etc. Both also emphasize

the importance of using spicy herbs in many cases of chronic or lurking

heat. And to take care to not overuse the bitter cold herbs like the san

huang. So much heat is depressed heat; at least that's what my chartnotes

say. True fire conditions are comparatively rare in my practice.

 

I have long concerned myself with this matter and the need to regulate the

qi dynamic to address various heat patterns. Bob Flaws writings on Li zhu

medicine being an important influence, as well as working with Heiner

Fruehauf and Li Wei. See my earlier thoughts at

http://www..org/kdz.html (note: this article is in

need of revision). But now the flavors of every herb have been a

consideration in every formula and sometimes when posed with a choice

between 2 herbs, flavor may be the deciding factor.

Whether a flavor is truly an inherent quality of an herb or merely a

reminder of its function really does not matter. What matters is the

clinical utility of the concept. And that is something we must constantly

reassess. Our education and predilections subtly influence our judgment,

even of seemingly objective phenomena. In this case, I have discovered a

utility I had missed.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds " --

Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

, <@i...> wrote:

 

> newsletter that gets mailed out from golden flower herbs. One of

the

> things he notes is that chai hu was not attributed a spicy flavor

until

> quite recently. Up through the end of the ming, it was considered

only

> bitter. Since only the 18th century have some texts considered it

spicy.

> Andy says that " It appears that the bitter sapor [flavor] was

sufficient

> in earlier times to justify (italics mine) the ability of chai hu to

> disperse a pathogen from the fleshy exterior but by the qing dynasty

an

> acrid [spicy] sapor served as a better reminder (italics mine again)

of

> this function. "

>

> He then quotes a jin-yuan materia medica and a qing one to show how

one

> justifies chai hu's functions by reference to the bitter flavor and

the

> other by reference to spicy. But consider the italicized words

 

This is interesting in light of a part of Unshuld's " Medicine in

China - A History of Ideas " .

 

On page 186, there is Table 3 that summarizes the " Fivefold

Categorization of Drug Qualities " from the Sung-Jin-Yuan period,

" developed on the basis of the Huangdi Neijing Suwen " .

 

On this chart, the metal phase associated with the Lung and Large

Instestine are assisgned the flavor bitter, rather than acrid.

In fact, all of the flavors are assigned the phases different

than what we learn at PCOM, except for sweet, which is still

assigned to the earth phase.

 

So, perhaps the flavor itself of chai hu has not changed, but

rather the actions of the flavors or how the flavors are thought

about. For what it's worth, the acrid flavor relates to the

water phase on that chart.

 

Pages 179-188 give an interesting look at the classification of

medicinals from that time period.

 

BCA

[Guest guest]

 

I think that there is a use here for the distinction often made in

philosophy of science between explanations that are ontological, ie

they refer to something that exists, methodological ie they enable

one to do something useful by organising and systematising whether or

not they refer to anything that really exists and lastly, heuristic,

ie a teaching device whose link to real qualities is even more

tenuous, it just lets us learn how to do the right thing.

Simon

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bca@o...> wrote:

 

>

> On this chart, the metal phase associated with the Lung and

Large

> Instestine are assisgned the flavor bitter, rather than acrid.

> In fact, all of the flavors are assigned the phases different

> than what we learn at PCOM, except for sweet, which is still

> assigned to the earth phase.

 

Its almost as if flavors became standardized in the current

format for the purpose of speaking a common clinical language.

Not because the herbs necessarily possessed the attribute. So

it was useful to call an herb spicy if its action in the body

conformed to the effects expected of a spicy herb, even if it did

not taste spicy. If the idea of what spicy does changes over time,

then so will the herb attributes, as is clear in Andy's article on

chai hu. So perhaps it is always more about the effects on the

internal organs than the tastebuds.

 

Whether we agree that chai hu is spicy or not, we can all agree

that it moves qi when we ingest it. In that way, calling it spicy

links it with other herbs that cause a similar bodily sensation. It

might be fair to say that qi regulators " feel " spicy. Does anyone

else have that sense? While chai hu causes a distinct

sensation when ingested, it also has a general quality of

movement that is shared with many other herbs. So the

question is when does one detect the sweetness or spiciness

of a substance? When it hits the mouth or when it hits the

bloodstream?

 

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

Do you have any reliable qigong masters working for the school or

out there who can digest an herb and sense its meridian induction?

It might be fun to put them to the test and do an informal survey.

 

Once in a while qigong master Hong Liu comes to Denver and has done

this. When he does a diagnosis aurically (sees their qi fild) I can

follow him through the pulses.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> Whether we agree that chai hu is spicy or not, we can all agree

> that it moves qi when we ingest it. In that way, calling it spicy

> links it with other herbs that cause a similar bodily sensation.

It

> might be fair to say that qi regulators " feel " spicy. Does anyone

> else have that sense? While chai hu causes a distinct

> sensation when ingested, it also has a general quality of

> movement that is shared with many other herbs. So the

> question is when does one detect the sweetness or spiciness

> of a substance? When it hits the mouth or when it hits the

> bloodstream?

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

What's the expectation that herb tastes will vary over time---even

this drmatically---due to different growing conditions, areas of

cultivation, etc.?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> > Whether we agree that chai hu is spicy or not, we can all agree

> > that it moves qi when we ingest it. In that way, calling it

spicy

> > links it with other herbs that cause a similar bodily

sensation.

> It

> > might be fair to say that qi regulators " feel " spicy. Does

anyone

> > else have that sense? While chai hu causes a distinct

> > sensation when ingested, it also has a general quality of

> > movement that is shared with many other herbs. So the

> > question is when does one detect the sweetness or spiciness

> > of a substance? When it hits the mouth or when it hits the

> > bloodstream?

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz>

wrote:

 

> What's the expectation that herb tastes will vary over time---

even

> this drmatically---due to different growing conditions, areas of

> cultivation, etc.?

 

Well, if an herb's actual taste changed this dramatically, I

suspect it would be biochemically quite different and thus have

different effects. In this case, the same effects are explained

with reference to 2 different modes of action. In one case, bitter

effuses and in the other case, spicy is necessary.