NCCAOM Dipl. C.H. Eligibility

[Guest guest]

Hello all...

 

If you didn't read your last issue of the Diplomate closely (for NCCAOM

diplomates), the NCCAOM is seeking public comment about the possibility

of expanding eligibility for the Dipl. C.H. program. Currently

applicants must graduate from a school of Oriental Medicine (with an

acupuncture component) and finish at least 450 hrs. in herb specific

material. The new requirement would also allow people who have not

graduated from a school of OM to become a Dipl. C.H. with ONLY 450 hrs.

of training.

 

As I see it this is an absurd possibility. This means that people with

NO other medical training would be eligible to become a Dipl. C.H. in

only 450 hours. That's 450 hours to become nationally certified in a

medical science as complex and wonderful as TCM (keep in mind that even

massage therapists need more training than that to be licensed just about

everywhere they are licensed).

 

There are numerous problems with this as I see it:

 

1. Non-licensed people (not even other licensed health providers) will

hold the same professional certification as fully trained and licensed

practitioners of acupuncture/OM.

 

2. The 450 hrs. does NOT take into consideration the over one thousand

hours a graduate from a college of OM takes in general TCM theory,

diagnostic skills, internal medicine and pattern diagnosis, western

biomedical pathology, western pharmacology, recognition of medical

emergencies, etc., etc. that an OM college graduate gets. It is absurd

to think that one can learn all of this, and still be a SAFE and

PROFESSIONAL practitioner of Chinese herbal medicine in ONLY 450 hours.

 

3. This eligibility would serve to further divide the profession of OM in

a time when we are trying to make it ours.

 

4. People without ANY science prereqs (or a bachelors degree or even a

high school diploma for that matter) would be eligible to be a Dipl. C.H.

 

5. If improperly trained practitioners with professional certifications

start hurting people with Chinese herbs, kiss them goodby. Herbs will be

outlawed faster than you can imagine. Chinese herbs are NOT safe because

they are natural, they are safe because competent professionals dispense

them.

 

6. Currently the eligibility for the Dipl. C.H. by apprenticeship is 4000

hours! How can a program of only 450 hrs. be equivalent to 4000 hours in

an apprenticeship. This ratio of hours is absurd (look at the ratio of

education vs. apprenticeship hours for the Dipl. Ac. or ABT programs -

they are much more logical and reasonable).

 

7. This new route to eligibility would make the Dipl. C.H. designation

the EASIEST to obtain of the three the NCCAOM offers. Currently even the

Dipl. ABT requires more hours (500) than the new Dipl. C.H. requirement

would need. This is utterly rediculous considering that the practice of

herbal medicine is ostensibly the most difficult to master in Oriental

Medicine. Furthermore, without any doubt, the practice of herbal

medicine has the greatest potential for real side effects. It is

possibly the most dangerous modality the NCCAOM certifies yet it would

now be the easiest one in which to be certified.

 

8. There are many more logical reasons why this is crazy that I'm sure

I'll consider over the next few days.

 

Sorry to ramble. It is very important that we ALL write to the NCCAOM AS

SOON AS POSSIBLE to let them know that this is a bad idea. If we don't,

it may come to be. Then, the Dipl. C.H. certification won't be worth the

paper it's written on. If it is this easy to obtain, then state

legislatures won't take it seriously and our right to legally practice

herbal medicine may be compromised.

 

For more information about the specifics of the proposal, see the current

issue of the " Diplomate " sent to all NCCAOM diplomates or CALL THE

NCCAOM. Please, be sure to take just a few minutes to e-mail them (their

address is info) or snail-mail them something. If you are a

member of your state organization, you may want to encourage them to

write an official letter also.

 

 

Thanks all,

 

Henry

 

Henry McCann, C.A., Dipl. Ac. & C.H.

Licensed Acpuncturist (NJ, NY, MA); Doctor of Acupuncture (RI)

National Board Certified in Acupuncture and Chinese Herbology

Treasurer, New Jersey Asso. of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

 

North Jersey Center for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

37 Kings Road

Madison, NJ 07940

(973) 660-0110; mobile (973) 449-0340; fax (973) 410-9448

 

www.newjerseyacupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Henry,

Thanks for bringing this matter to the attention of people

on this list. This is one of two items in the latest Diplomate

to which I hope we all give some thought. The other item is

concerned with expanding the 'Combination Route of Eligibility' . . . to

include (but not limited to) 'chiropractors, dentists, D.O.'s, M,D.'s,

naturopaths, nurse practitioners, occupational therapists, pharmacists,

physician assistants, physical therapists and podiatrists.' The reasons

and thoughts you give in regard to the second item, I think, equally apply

to this first item. So read this Diplomate article and tell them

what you think: info. You

may be able to find the article on these two items on their website: www.nccaom.org.

Frances

Henry McCann wrote:

Hello all...

If you didn't read your last issue of the Diplomate

closely (for NCCAOM

diplomates), the NCCAOM is seeking public comment

about the possibility

of expanding eligibility for the Dipl. C.H. program.

Currently

applicants must graduate from a school of Oriental

Medicine (with an

acupuncture component) and finish at least 450 hrs.

in herb specific

material. The new requirement would also allow

people who have not

graduated from a school of OM to become a Dipl. C.H.

with ONLY 450 hrs.

of training.

As I see it this is an absurd possibility. This

means that people with

NO other medical training would be eligible to become

a Dipl. C.H. in

only 450 hours. That's 450 hours to become

nationally certified in a

medical science as complex and wonderful as TCM (keep

in mind that even

massage therapists need more training than that to

be licensed just about

everywhere they are licensed).

There are numerous problems with this as I see it:

1. Non-licensed people (not even other licensed health

providers) will

hold the same professional certification as fully

trained and licensed

practitioners of acupuncture/OM.

2. The 450 hrs. does NOT take into consideration the

over one thousand

hours a graduate from a college of OM takes in general

TCM theory,

diagnostic skills, internal medicine and pattern

diagnosis, western

biomedical pathology, western pharmacology, recognition

of medical

emergencies, etc., etc. that an OM college graduate

gets. It is absurd

to think that one can learn all of this, and still

be a SAFE and

PROFESSIONAL practitioner of Chinese herbal medicine

in ONLY 450 hours.

3. This eligibility would serve to further divide

the profession of OM in

a time when we are trying to make it ours.

4. People without ANY science prereqs (or a bachelors

degree or even a

high school diploma for that matter) would be eligible

to be a Dipl. C.H.

5. If improperly trained practitioners with professional

certifications

start hurting people with Chinese herbs, kiss them

goodby. Herbs will be

outlawed faster than you can imagine. Chinese

herbs are NOT safe because

they are natural, they are safe because competent

professionals dispense

them.

6. Currently the eligibility for the Dipl. C.H. by

apprenticeship is 4000

hours! How can a program of only 450 hrs. be

equivalent to 4000 hours in

an apprenticeship. This ratio of hours is absurd

(look at the ratio of

education vs. apprenticeship hours for the Dipl.

Ac. or ABT programs -

they are much more logical and reasonable).

7. This new route to eligibility would make the Dipl.

C.H. designation

the EASIEST to obtain of the three the NCCAOM offers.

Currently even the

Dipl. ABT requires more hours (500) than the new

Dipl. C.H. requirement

would need. This is utterly rediculous considering

that the practice of

herbal medicine is ostensibly the most difficult

to master in Oriental

Medicine. Furthermore, without any doubt, the

practice of herbal

medicine has the greatest potential for real side

effects. It is

possibly the most dangerous modality the NCCAOM certifies

yet it would

now be the easiest one in which to be certified.

8. There are many more logical reasons why this is

crazy that I'm sure

I'll consider over the next few days.

Sorry to ramble. It is very important that we

ALL write to the NCCAOM AS

SOON AS POSSIBLE to let them know that this is a

bad idea. If we don't,

it may come to be. Then, the Dipl. C.H. certification

won't be worth the

paper it's written on. If it is this easy to

obtain, then state

legislatures won't take it seriously and our right

to legally practice

herbal medicine may be compromised.

For more information about the specifics of the proposal,

see the current

issue of the "Diplomate" sent to all NCCAOM diplomates

or CALL THE

NCCAOM. Please, be sure to take just a few

minutes to e-mail them (their

address is info) or snail-mail them something.

If you are a

member of your state organization, you may want to

encourage them to

write an official letter also.

 

Thanks all,

Henry

Henry McCann, C.A., Dipl. Ac. & C.H.

Licensed Acpuncturist (NJ, NY, MA); Doctor of Acupuncture

(RI)

National Board Certified in Acupuncture and Chinese

Herbology

Treasurer, New Jersey Asso. of Acupuncture and Oriental

Medicine

North Jersey Center for Acupuncture and Oriental

Medicine

37 Kings Road

Madison, NJ 07940

(973) 660-0110; mobile (973) 449-0340; fax (973)

410-9448

www.newjerseyacupuncture.com

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Henry McCann <purple-

mist@w...> wrote:

 

>

> 7. This new route to eligibility would make the Dipl. C.H.

designation

> the EASIEST to obtain of the three the NCCAOM offers.

 

Keep in mind that NCCAOM certification in herbology is

meaningless without also being certified in Acupuncture. No

state will ever license someone who only has the herb

certificate. so we don't have to worry about a separate

profession springing up with no training. The only people who

can prescribe herbs are those who have them inthe state

granted scope of practice (this is limited to SOME MD's and

DC's, SOME L.Ac.'s and all state licensed ND's). No certificate

will change that.

 

On the other hand, I recently went through the PCOM catalog and

the classes absolutely necessary to the basic practice of

herbology add up to about 500 classroom hours. the rest is

acupuncture, western science and western medicine,philosophy

and allied arts, practice management, etc. So if someone

already had most of this other training, like an MD, if they did 500

hours of herbology, they would have as many hours as we do in

everything except acupuncture (which is not necessary to

practice herbology). However, if the NCCAOM plans to award

this certificate without requiring clinical training in addition to the

academic hours, they are a truly reprehensible, money-grubbing

organization.

 

[Guest guest]

<< Henry McCann wrote: " Then, the Dipl. C.H. certification won't be

worth the paper it's written on. " >>

 

 

It isn't worth anything now. Unlike the practice of acupuncture, the

NCCAOM has no authority or influence over who can sell herbs. The

NCCAOM herbal diplomate is, at best, superfluous since herbs are

already in the scope of practice in all acupuncture laws and can be

sold at any grocery stores without regulation by untrained clerks.

 

Actually expanding the qualifications for the CH diplomate to

include others might be a smart thing to do. It may be the only way

to get those who are untrained under their aegis. It sounds like

they are trying to expand their political clout and develop some

good public relations for the profession at the same time.

 

I don't mean to sound cynical but your arguments concern issues of

competence, when this is really a political and social issue. The

MDs and DCs have already established that around 300 is enough to

learn anything.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

However, if the NCCAOM plans to award this certificate without

requiring clinical training in addition to the academic hours, they

are a truly reprehensible, money-grubbing organization.

 

 

 

Perhaps this is the lesser evil in a no-win situation.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz>

wrote:

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

 

>

> Perhaps this is the lesser evil in a no-win situation.

 

 

It is an interesting point. to play devil's advocate, 450 hours of

solid training might even go a long way towards increasing

safety in the entire field. Since many of the folks who would be

intersted in taking the training are already prescribing herbs with

no training at all, any training would only help. Also 450 hours is

plenty to instill the fear of the power of misusing chinese herbs.

so those who once practiced with the romantic idea that herbs

are always beneficial may now practice with more caution. I

don't like this much, but Jim may be right.

 

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

>The only people who

> can prescribe herbs are those who have them inthe state

> granted scope of practice (this is limited to SOME MD's and

> DC's, SOME L.Ac.'s and all state licensed ND's). No certificate

> will change that.

 

Well, this really isn't true. In most states anyone can practice

herbal medicine without a license (California may be different, I'm not

sure). Now, people with less training will have the same PROFESSIONAL

certification as people with a license to practice Oriental Medicine.

If these people hurt people or fail to recognize medical emergencies

that need referring to other professionals or an emergency room, then

all of us will be in danger of loosing the right to practice herbal

medicine (because they have the same gold-standard professional

certification as all the rest of us).

 

> On the other hand, I recently went through the PCOM catalog and

> the classes absolutely necessary to the basic practice of

> herbology add up to about 500 classroom hours. the rest is

> acupuncture, western science and western medicine,philosophy

> and allied arts, practice management, etc.

 

This may be true, however... I went through my transcript today after

digging it out of a dusty pile of papers (I am a graduate of the New

England School of Acupuncture) and I counted 606 hrs. of class dealing

directly with Chinese herbs and clinic where I was allowed to ONLY use

herbal medicine. I also counted 412.5 hours of class related purely to

TCM theory, diagnosis, etc. that made no specific mention of

acupuncture (in other words it was just TCM). There was also 255 hours

of western biomedical pathophysiology and pharmacology, medical

emergencies, or other western medical science classes, NOT including

pure science courses like anatomy/physiology, chem, organic chem, bio

chem, microbiology etc (or the bachelor's degree a student needs to get

into NESA). The rest of the classwork I did was related directly in

one way or another to acupuncture so I didn't count that (and the rest

of the clinic hours I did when I was allowed to do both acupuncture and

herbs was left out of these numbers also). I would argue that the pure

TCM material is really necessary to practice herbs. If you just throw

someone into Materia Medica without knowing any TCM theory or

diagnostic skills, then they really aren't learning and understanding

Chinese herbs. I would also argue that students need western medical

pathology, medical emergencies and pharmacology in order to safely

practice Chinese herbal medicine in a nation where western medicine is

the dominant paradigm and where most of their patients will also be

taking western medications for western disease diagnoses. So the total

number of hours that I counted on my transcript that I would argue was

necessary for me to be a competent professional herbalist (therefore

deserving a professional designation like the NCCAOM certification) was

1273.5 hrs.

 

 

>So if someone

> already had most of this other training, like an MD, if they did 500

> hours of herbology, they would have as many hours as we do in

> everything except acupuncture (which is not necessary to

> practice herbology).

 

We're not talking about MDs doing 500 hours and then getting a

certificate. We're talking about anybody, even without any medical

background, without even a bachelor's degree or high school diploma,

having the same professional designation as we do with less hours than

it would take to become a massage therapist (who need a high school

diploma also to get into school).

 

Nothing still reconciles the fact that the NCCAOM will consider 450hrs.

equivalent to a 4000 hr. apprenticeship when for acupuncture the

numbers are 1,725 tp 4,000 (formal education to apprenticeship) and for

ABT 500 to 500 (for formal ed. and apprenticeship). I think if the

NCCAOM wants to set educational standards the ratio of hours for the

Dipl. C.H. should be similar to the Dipl. Ac., where the necessary

number of hours for eligibility should be a little less than 1/2 the

hours of the apprenticeship program. Otherwise, why not make the

acupuncture eligibility 450 hours?

 

Henry

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> << Henry McCann wrote: " Then, the Dipl. C.H. certification won't be

> worth the paper it's written on. " >>

>

>

> It isn't worth anything now. Unlike the practice of acupuncture, the

> NCCAOM has no authority or influence over who can sell herbs. The

> NCCAOM herbal diplomate is, at best, superfluous since herbs are

> already in the scope of practice in all acupuncture laws...

 

Actually this isn't true. While Chinese herbs can be sold just about

anywhere legally, in many states herbs are not in the scope of practice

(look at Ohio where acupuncturists are being cited for practicing

medicine without a license for practicing herbs). Just because we all

do it, doesn't mean its in our scopes of practice. It is important

that state legislatures can trust NCCAOM certification as the

professional gold-standard in the practice of Oriental Medicine. If

people with the SAME professional NCCAOM certification who are not

licensed to do anything anywhere practice herbs and hurt people or fail

for example to recognize herb-drug interactions, then state

legislatures will yank away OUR right to practice herbs. It's

happening in states like OH now as we speak.

 

So while I know that certifications may not guarantee competency, the

NCCAOM certification is important for our legal rights in states where

herbs are not yet part of the scope of practice (which is a lot still).

A higher standard is still better overall for the profession.

 

Henry

[Guest guest]

, " acuhenry " <purple-mist@w...> wrote:

in many states herbs are not in the scope of practice (look at Ohio

where acupuncturists are being cited for practicing medicine without

a license for practicing herbs). Just because we all do it, doesn't

mean its in our scopes of practice.

 

 

Henry:

 

Are there excptions other than Ohio?

 

Interestingly, you can practice acupuncture in AZ without a license

as long as you only do it on yourself.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

Well, here in NJ we can legally stimulate acupuncture points with the

" application of herbs. " Does this mean we can practice internal herbs?

Maybe, maybe not... We do use herbs here, but its not explicit that

internal herbs are in the scope of practice. PA only just got herbs in

the scope of practice this July. In MA herbs are not offically in the

scope of practice, although L.Ac.'s can register to practice with the

board of medicine if they graduate from an approved program (if they

don't graduate from an approved program of herbal medicine they cannot

practice herbs - although anyone without a license to do acupuncture

can practice herbs without any training - how's that for weird). NY

does not have herbs in the scope of practice, although people do it

there. I know there are other states without herbs as part of the

scope of practice although I'd have to go look them up for you. And as

you know, OH does not have herbs in the scope of practice and L.Ac.'s

who use them are not tolerated by the medical board.

 

Until we have acupuncture licensing with herbs in the scope of practice

in all states (with OM professionals as primary care providers), I

think we have to be very vigilent in who else can obtain nationally

recognized professional designations.

 

Henry

 

 

 

>

> Are there excptions other than Ohio?

>

> Interestingly, you can practice acupuncture in AZ without a license

> as long as you only do it on yourself.

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

That's really interesting... As big as I am on the individual rights

of the states, sometimes national licensing laws would make life a lot

easier, LOL!

[Guest guest]

, " acuhenry " <purple-mist@w...>

wrote:

In most states anyone can practice

> herbal medicine without a license (California may be different,

I'm not

> sure).

 

 

Henry

 

You are mistaking a lack of enforcement with legality. It is illegal

to practice herbal medicine in every state unless one has a

medical license with herbs in the scope of practice. It is legal to

sell herbs, but if one makes a specific medical

recommendation, then one is practicing medicine without a

license. The only reason this law is not enforced is because

powerful corporate interests sell more products in health food

stores than they do in L.Ac. offices. But a single undercover

investigation by 60 minutes would end the matter overnite.

 

> This may be true, however... I went through my transcript today

after

> digging it out of a dusty pile of papers (I am a graduate of the

New

> England School of Acupuncture) and I counted 606 hrs. of

class dealing

> directly with Chinese herbs and clinic where I was allowed to

ONLY use

> herbal medicine.

 

PCOM has 252 classroom that I consdier essential and no clinic

 

I also counted 412.5 hours of class related purely to

> TCM theory, diagnosis, etc. that made no specific mention of

> acupuncture (in other words it was just TCM).

 

I counted 252 at PCOM. However, we have probably have

different ideas of what constitutes basic knowledge. I know you

must be aware that many, many people practice chinese

herbology under their L.Ac. license with no herb training at all.

As for the western hours, they are moot to my argument. I began

with the caveat that I would only support the certification of MD's,

etc. who already have these hours.

 

If you just throw

> someone into Materia Medica without knowing any TCM theory

or

> diagnostic skills, then they really aren't learning and

understanding

> Chinese herbs.

 

 

Did I ever say that? they need at least 250 hours of clinic, too.

But, IMO, 750 hours should be enough to practice as safely and

effectively as the average L.Ac. in practice today. I'd be willing to

bet that with 750 hours, I could train a focused health

professional to practice TCM herbology better than many L.Ac.'s.

 

 

So the total

> number of hours that I counted on my transcript that I would

argue was

> necessary for me to be a competent professional herbalist

(therefore

> deserving a professional designation like the NCCAOM

certification) was

> 1273.5 hrs.

 

Asked and answered above.

 

>

> We're not talking about MDs doing 500 hours and then getting

a

> certificate.

 

Maybe you are not, but I am. If laypeople started making

medical diagnoses and treating patients with herbs in a very

public way, they would be prosecuted. Certificates grant NO

auhtority to practice. Only licenses do that. If you don't believe

me, ask the NCCAOM to provide you with the extensive legal

opinions written by Barbara Mitchell, JD, on this exact subject.

 

[Guest guest]

L

[Guest guest]

The practice of chinese herbal medicine is not in our scope

of practice in Maryland, which seems to mean that anyone and everyone can

do it quasi-legally here.

Frances

jramholz wrote:

,

"acuhenry" <purple-mist@w...> wrote:

in many states herbs are not in the scope of practice

(look at Ohio

where acupuncturists are being cited for practicing

medicine without

a license for practicing herbs). Just because we

all do it, doesn't

mean its in our scopes of practice.

 

Henry:

Are there excptions other than Ohio?

Interestingly, you can practice acupuncture in AZ

without a license

as long as you only do it on yourself.

Jim Ramholz

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " acuhenry " <purple-mist@w...> wrote:

 

> We're not talking about MDs doing 500 hours and then getting a

> certificate. We're talking about anybody, even without any medical

> background, without even a bachelor's degree or high school diploma,

> having the same professional designation as we do with less hours

than

> it would take to become a massage therapist (who need a high school

> diploma also to get into school).

>

> Henry

 

I've been reading this thread and have seen this argument several

times already and it has gone unquestioned.

 

Isn't there a difference between the NCCAOM offering a 450 CH

certificate and what you are saying? After all, first the

NCCAOM would have to approve the programs that would be offering

the training to work towards that certification.

 

Do any of us have any idea what the NCCAOM would require of the

institutes and the programs offered by the institutes. Are we

certain that the institutes and programs will have no prerequisites?

 

These are important questions that need to be answered before

any questioning of the 450 hr certificate is questioned.

 

Remember, this may also open the door for many acupuncturist

who went to schools that offered no herbal program, like the

Worsley school in MD. With a 450 hr certificate on the table,

and if proper care is taken to make sure the qualifying

institutes and programs are solid, then perhaps existing acupuncture

only schools or even independent institutes will start to offer

CH programs. This will give those acupuncturists a better

foundation to practice the CHM that is already in their scope

of practice. This will lead to what is most important which is

benefit to the patients.

 

Furthermore, this may in turn lead to individual states to begin

to require the CH certification in order for CHM to be included

in the scope of practice of the licensed professionals.

 

BCA

 

BCA

[Guest guest]

BCA:

A point of clarification re:

 

Remember, this may also open the door for many acupuncturist

who went to schools that offered no herbal program, like the

Worsley school in MD.

 

The Worsley school in MD (TAI or its new name TAI Sophia) did/does not

integrate CH into its acupuncture training, but did have a 450 hour CH

program lead by Ted Kaptchuk for quite a few years. I did both there.

And, as I mentioned before, since CH is not in our scope of practice, anyone

can practice CH in Maryland. The CH diplomate is not with much meaning

here, outside the profession.

NCCAOM does not accredit the schools or their curricula; the ACAOM does

that (accreditation commission). The NCCAOM's main purpose is administering

certification exams.

Frances

bcataiji wrote:

,

"acuhenry" <purple-mist@w...> wrote:

> We're not talking about MDs doing 500 hours and

then getting a

> certificate. We're talking about anybody,

even without any medical

> background, without even a bachelor's degree or

high school diploma,

> having the same professional designation as we

do with less hours

than

> it would take to become a massage therapist (who

need a high school

> diploma also to get into school).

>

> Henry

I've been reading this thread and have seen this argument

several

times already and it has gone unquestioned.

Isn't there a difference between the NCCAOM offering

a 450 CH

certificate and what you are saying? After

all, first the

NCCAOM would have to approve the programs that would

be offering

the training to work towards that certification.

Do any of us have any idea what the NCCAOM would require

of the

institutes and the programs offered by the institutes.

Are we

certain that the institutes and programs will have

no prerequisites?

These are important questions that need to be answered

before

any questioning of the 450 hr certificate is questioned.

Remember, this may also open the door for many acupuncturist

who went to schools that offered no herbal program,

like the

Worsley school in MD. With a 450 hr certificate

on the table,

and if proper care is taken to make sure the qualifying

institutes and programs are solid, then perhaps existing

acupuncture

only schools or even independent institutes will

start to offer

CH programs. This will give those acupuncturists

a better

foundation to practice the CHM that is already in

their scope

of practice. This will lead to what is most

important which is

benefit to the patients.

Furthermore, this may in turn lead to individual states

to begin

to require the CH certification in order for CHM

to be included

in the scope of practice of the licensed professionals.

BCA

BCA

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Frances Gander <fgander@c...> wrote:

 

> NCCAOM does not accredit the schools or their curricula; the ACAOM

does

> that (accreditation commission). The NCCAOM's main purpose is

> administering certification exams.

>

 

I understand what you are saying. However, this does not change

the thrust of my arguement here. Instead, the burder is shifted

off of the NCCAOM and onto the ACAOM. Afterall, the NCCAOM exams

do have requirements in order to sit for them. You have to complete

an approved program. Approved programs often have prerequisites.

 

Thanks for the clarification with the acronymns.

 

BCA

[Guest guest]

Re: since CH is not in our scope of practice, anyone can practice CH

in Maryland.

 

Francis,

 

Not true. I just checked and Maryland does have a Medical Practices

Act which was revised in 1999. This prevents anyone from practicing

medicine without a license. All other health care practitioners (such

as acupuncturists, DCs, nurses, podiatrists, physical therapists,

dentists, etc.)legally sanctioned in Maryland have their own law which

essentially provides certain exemptions from the absolute monopoly

created by the Medical Practices Act. If, as a licensed health care

provider, Chinese herbs are not in your legally mandated scope of

practice, then it is illegal for you or any other professional health

care practitioner to prescribe and/or dispense them. While anyone can

buy Chinese herbal medicines over the counter, legally, it is an

entirely different thing for a professional health care practitioner

to prescribe and/or dispense Chinese herbs.

 

There is a huge misconception on the part of many acupuncturists all

over the U.S. that, if something is not in your scope of practice,

anyone can do it. Quite the contrary, the Medical Practices Act trumps

all other rights which are not specifically protected by some other

legal exemption. In other words, unless Chinese herbs are part of your

legal scope of practice, such practice is not alegal, it is illegal.

 

However, prosecution for practicing medicine without a license (which

includes exceeding one's legal scope of practice) is a complaint

driven process. That means you might practice Chinese herbal medicine

professionally for years without being popped, or a single day. It

appears that anyone can practice Chinese herbal medicine simply

because no one in your state has been the subject of a complaint (or

maybe it's just that you don't know of any cases). Such a complaint

could come from anywhere -- a patient, a patient's family, an MD, or a

concerned citizen. Once a complaint has been made, an investigation

must be conducted. If the investigation determines that someone has

prescribed and/or dispensed Chinese herbal medicines professionally

without being legally mandated to do so, the case is turned over to

the State Attorney General for prosecution. Typically, such cases are

settled before trial with a written agreement on the part of the

indicted party not to do this again. If the case did go to trial, the

first conviction is usually for a misdemeanor and is punished by a

fine. Second convictions are felonies with potential state prison

time. In any case, even if you are only forced to sign an agreement

with the Attorney General's office, it'll cost you several thousands

of dollars in legal fee and many sleepless nights. Been there, done

that.

 

Last year, a relatively new practitioner in Ohio was the subject of a

newspaper article. This article greatly helped this practitioner jump

start her practice. However, in the article, it mentioned that she did

Chinese herbal medicine as well as acupuncture. This woman assumed

that anyone in Ohio could practice Chinese herbal medicine because

nothing is said specifically about Chinese herbs in any Ohio statutes.

Chinese herbs are not part of the scope of practice of acupuncturists

in Ohio. I'm not sure who blew the whistle, but the Ohio Board of

Medical Examiners conducted an investigation confirming that this

woman was practicing Chinese herbal medicine as well as acupuncture. A

year later, the woman has been forced to move to a new state which

includes the practice of Chinese herbal medicine in the legal scope of

practice of acupuncturists. She lost months of profitable practice,

legal fees, and the costs of moving to a new state and starting over

again. Not a cheap lesson to learn.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

In other words, unless Chinese herbs are part of your

> legal scope of practice, such practice is not alegal, it is illegal.

>

> However, prosecution for practicing medicine without a license

(which

> includes exceeding one's legal scope of practice) is a

complaint

> driven process.

 

well put, Bob. I hope this settles the matter. I have investigated

it for many years, including in a professional capacity in order to

help clarify the Oregon scope of practice in 1995. All legal

authorities with whom I have spoken all have the exact same

opinion, as expressed by Bob. The CA law, which specifically

states that granting the right to L.Ac.'s to prescribe chinese

herbs does not take this right away from anyone else, has been

misinterpreted by self serving parties. It only means that others

who have the right to prescribe in their scope of practice will not

be prohibited from using chinese herbs. This may include MD,

DO and DC. It absolutely does not give the right of prescription

to chinatown herbalists, HHP's or MT's. In the early 90's, a

chinatown herb shop doc in Portland was prosecuted for

violating Oregon's medical practice act.

 

[Guest guest]

Those are all good points, Bob. Along those lines, does anyone know if NDs

can practice in California? I am sure they can't, because I know NDs who

went back to school to become DCs just so they could practice their medicine

here in CA. If someone moves to CA from, say, OR, with an ND degree, can

that person call herself a " physician " in CA? I think not.

 

Julie

-

pemachophel2001 <pemachophel2001

 

Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:01 AM

Re: NCCAOM Dipl. C.H. Eligibility

 

 

> Re: since CH is not in our scope of practice, anyone can practice CH

> in Maryland.

>

> Francis,

>

> Not true. I just checked and Maryland does have a Medical Practices

> Act which was revised in 1999. This prevents anyone from practicing

> medicine without a license. All other health care practitioners (such

> as acupuncturists, DCs, nurses, podiatrists, physical therapists,

> dentists, etc.)legally sanctioned in Maryland have their own law which

> essentially provides certain exemptions from the absolute monopoly

> created by the Medical Practices Act. If, as a licensed health care

> provider, Chinese herbs are not in your legally mandated scope of

> practice, then it is illegal for you or any other professional health

> care practitioner to prescribe and/or dispense them. While anyone can

> buy Chinese herbal medicines over the counter, legally, it is an

> entirely different thing for a professional health care practitioner

> to prescribe and/or dispense Chinese herbs.

>

> There is a huge misconception on the part of many acupuncturists all

> over the U.S. that, if something is not in your scope of practice,

> anyone can do it. Quite the contrary, the Medical Practices Act trumps

> all other rights which are not specifically protected by some other

> legal exemption. In other words, unless Chinese herbs are part of your

> legal scope of practice, such practice is not alegal, it is illegal.

>

> However, prosecution for practicing medicine without a license (which

> includes exceeding one's legal scope of practice) is a complaint

> driven process. That means you might practice Chinese herbal medicine

> professionally for years without being popped, or a single day. It

> appears that anyone can practice Chinese herbal medicine simply

> because no one in your state has been the subject of a complaint (or

> maybe it's just that you don't know of any cases). Such a complaint

> could come from anywhere -- a patient, a patient's family, an MD, or a

> concerned citizen. Once a complaint has been made, an investigation

> must be conducted. If the investigation determines that someone has

> prescribed and/or dispensed Chinese herbal medicines professionally

> without being legally mandated to do so, the case is turned over to

> the State Attorney General for prosecution. Typically, such cases are

> settled before trial with a written agreement on the part of the

> indicted party not to do this again. If the case did go to trial, the

> first conviction is usually for a misdemeanor and is punished by a

> fine. Second convictions are felonies with potential state prison

> time. In any case, even if you are only forced to sign an agreement

> with the Attorney General's office, it'll cost you several thousands

> of dollars in legal fee and many sleepless nights. Been there, done

> that.

>

> Last year, a relatively new practitioner in Ohio was the subject of a

> newspaper article. This article greatly helped this practitioner jump

> start her practice. However, in the article, it mentioned that she did

> Chinese herbal medicine as well as acupuncture. This woman assumed

> that anyone in Ohio could practice Chinese herbal medicine because

> nothing is said specifically about Chinese herbs in any Ohio statutes.

> Chinese herbs are not part of the scope of practice of acupuncturists

> in Ohio. I'm not sure who blew the whistle, but the Ohio Board of

> Medical Examiners conducted an investigation confirming that this

> woman was practicing Chinese herbal medicine as well as acupuncture. A

> year later, the woman has been forced to move to a new state which

> includes the practice of Chinese herbal medicine in the legal scope of

> practice of acupuncturists. She lost months of profitable practice,

> legal fees, and the costs of moving to a new state and starting over

> again. Not a cheap lesson to learn.

>

> Bob

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Thank you for all the information tendered in your response

to

 

Re: since CH is not in our scope of

practice, anyone can practice CH

in Maryland.

 

All I have to say is, OUCH. I am sharing this

with our board.

Frances

--

Frances Lea Gander, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac.

Three Treasures Health Services

www.carr.org/~fgander

pemachophel2001 wrote:

Re: since CH is not in our

scope of practice, anyone can practice CH

in Maryland.

Francis,

Not true. I just checked and Maryland does have a

Medical Practices

Act which was revised in 1999. This prevents anyone

from practicing

medicine without a license. All other health care

practitioners (such

as acupuncturists, DCs, nurses, podiatrists, physical

therapists,

dentists, etc.)legally sanctioned in Maryland have

their own law which

essentially provides certain exemptions from the

absolute monopoly

created by the Medical Practices Act. If, as a licensed

health care

provider, Chinese herbs are not in your legally mandated

scope of

practice, then it is illegal for you or any other

professional health

care practitioner to prescribe and/or dispense them.

While anyone can

buy Chinese herbal medicines over the counter, legally,

it is an

entirely different thing for a professional health

care practitioner

to prescribe and/or dispense Chinese herbs.

There is a huge misconception on the part of many

acupuncturists all

over the U.S. that, if something is not in your scope

of practice,

anyone can do it. Quite the contrary, the Medical

Practices Act trumps

all other rights which are not specifically protected

by some other

legal exemption. In other words, unless Chinese herbs

are part of your

legal scope of practice, such practice is not alegal,

it is illegal.

However, prosecution for practicing medicine without

a license (which

includes exceeding one's legal scope of practice)

is a complaint

driven process. That means you might practice Chinese

herbal medicine

professionally for years without being popped, or

a single day. It

appears that anyone can practice Chinese herbal medicine

simply

because no one in your state has been the subject

of a complaint (or

maybe it's just that you don't know of any cases).

Such a complaint

could come from anywhere -- a patient, a patient's

family, an MD, or a

concerned citizen. Once a complaint has been made,

an investigation

must be conducted. If the investigation determines

that someone has

prescribed and/or dispensed Chinese herbal medicines

professionally

without being legally mandated to do so, the case

is turned over to

the State Attorney General for prosecution. Typically,

such cases are

settled before trial with a written agreement on

the part of the

indicted party not to do this again. If the case

did go to trial, the

first conviction is usually for a misdemeanor and

is punished by a

fine. Second convictions are felonies with potential

state prison

time. In any case, even if you are only forced to

sign an agreement

with the Attorney General's office, it'll cost you

several thousands

of dollars in legal fee and many sleepless nights.

Been there, done

that.

Last year, a relatively new practitioner in Ohio was

the subject of a

newspaper article. This article greatly helped this

practitioner jump

start her practice. However, in the article, it mentioned

that she did

Chinese herbal medicine as well as acupuncture. This

woman assumed

that anyone in Ohio could practice Chinese herbal

medicine because

nothing is said specifically about Chinese herbs

in any Ohio statutes.

Chinese herbs are not part of the scope of practice

of acupuncturists

in Ohio. I'm not sure who blew the whistle, but the

Ohio Board of

Medical Examiners conducted an investigation confirming

that this

woman was practicing Chinese herbal medicine as well

as acupuncture. A

year later, the woman has been forced to move to

a new state which

includes the practice of Chinese herbal medicine

in the legal scope of

practice of acupuncturists. She lost months of profitable

practice,

legal fees, and the costs of moving to a new state

and starting over

again. Not a cheap lesson to learn.

Bob

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Julie Chambers <info@j...>

wrote:

> Those are all good points, Bob. Along those lines, does

anyone know if NDs

> can practice in California?

 

they legally cannot, but they do.

 

If someone moves to CA from, say, OR, with an ND degree, can

> that person call herself a " physician " in CA? I think not.

 

definitely not. but they might be able to use the title ND, L.Ac.

and refer to themselves as " doctor " because ND is not just a

title, but also a degee.

 

[Guest guest]

1 wrote:

 

> > However, prosecution for practicing medicine without a license

> (which

> > includes exceeding one's legal scope of practice) is a

> complaint

> > driven process.

 

> It absolutely does not give the right of prescription

> to chinatown herbalists, HHP's or MT's. In the early 90's, a

> chinatown herb shop doc in Portland was prosecuted for

> violating Oregon's medical practice act.

 

Does that mean that Wild Oats and other national market chains that

specialize in organic/natural/healthy packaged products are in danger of

prosecution because they devote an entire aisle to the same Chinese

herbal products that many of us use?

 

Or Rite Aid (formally Thrifty/Scaggs), even bigger than Wild Oats which

has a entire section located in front of the pharmacy devoted to

" nutritional supplements " many of which are Chinese herbs (i.e. Ma Huang

Ephedra for " energy " ) is in danger of a lawsuit?

 

I can't imagine that they didn't check into this before setting up these

sales opportunities.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

If they are not L.Ac., could they still refer to themselves as " doctor " and

could they open a practice in CA?

 

Julie

>

> they might be able to use the title ND, L.Ac.

> and refer to themselves as " doctor " because ND is not just a

> title, but also a degee.

>

 

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

> In other words, unless Chinese herbs are part of

>your legal scope of practice, such practice is not alegal, it is

>illegal.

 

We know that the expression " Chinese herbs " is used not because all

the herbs come from China as we all know that this is not the case but

rather because we choose herbs according to a system of diagnosing

based on Bian Zheng. My question is: what if someone used our

pharmacopoeia and in fact based the choice of herbs on a similar

paradigm as ours but did not used the tcm language. Would the mere act

of taking the pulse and inspecting the tongue be sufficient to

categorize someone as a tcm practitioner and thus practicing Chinese

medicine without a license?

 

Regards,

 

~Fernando

[Guest guest]

There have been efforts to license naturopathy again in California in

the last few years since the 'quackbusters' at Loma Linda killed its

practice a few decades ago. This effort has been held up by

practitioners who have mail-order degrees or other forms of training

outside of the naturopathic college model who want to be grandfathered

into licensed practice.

 

The ND's I know all practice under MD's or chiropractors.

 

 

On Wednesday, July 24, 2002, at 10:35 AM, Julie Chambers wrote:

 

> Those are all good points, Bob. Along those lines, does anyone know if

> NDs

> can practice in California? I am sure they can't, because I know NDs who

> went back to school to become DCs just so they could practice their

> medicine

> here in CA. If someone moves to CA from, say, OR, with an ND degree, can

> that person call herself a " physician " in CA? I think not.

>

> Julie