Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 Al, I know its confusing and seemingly illogical, but, in terms of the law, selling Chinese herbs OTC is entirely different from a professional health care practitioner prescribing and/or dispensing Chinese herbs. One has to do with the Medical Practices Act and the legal scope of practice of professional health care practitioners. The other has to do with the FDA and FTC. These things are regulated by entirely different sets of laws, rules, and regs. Now, if a health food clerk recommends something for the treatment of a specific medical condition, then they are guilty of also practicing medicine without a license. The late Hannah Kroger, a medical intuitive who ran a health food store here in Boulder for many, many years, got popped and prosecuted for exactly this breach of the law. Because she was not a licensed professional health care practitioner with herbs in her scope of practice, it was ok for her to sell herbs, but not ok to prescribe them. It's hard for me to understand why schools don't do a better job in explaining these legal matters to their students. This same rebuttal comes up every time this issue is raised. Bob , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > 1 wrote: > > > > However, prosecution for practicing medicine without a license > > (which > > > includes exceeding one's legal scope of practice) is a > > complaint > > > driven process. > > > It absolutely does not give the right of prescription > > to chinatown herbalists, HHP's or MT's. In the early 90's, a > > chinatown herb shop doc in Portland was prosecuted for > > violating Oregon's medical practice act. > > Does that mean that Wild Oats and other national market chains that > specialize in organic/natural/healthy packaged products are in danger of > prosecution because they devote an entire aisle to the same Chinese > herbal products that many of us use? > > Or Rite Aid (formally Thrifty/Scaggs), even bigger than Wild Oats which > has a entire section located in front of the pharmacy devoted to > " nutritional supplements " many of which are Chinese herbs (i.e. Ma Huang > Ephedra for " energy " ) is in danger of a lawsuit? > > I can't imagine that they didn't check into this before setting up these > sales opportunities. > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone@B...> > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 Fernando, The issue has nothing whatsoever to do with TCM or Chinese herbs. The issue is contravention of the Medical Practices Act and the practicing of medicine without a license. You may only professionally practice medicine if you are a licensed MD or some other form of licensed health practitioner. In the second instance, you are only licensed to administer those treatments which are specified in your scope of practice. Anyone else doing anything else PROFESSIONALLY is breaking the law. By professional the usual definitions are A) for money, B) with advertising, C) in a space dedicated to this practice, D) saying one is or holding oneself out as a professional herbalist, etc., etc. Check with your State Attorney General or Department of Regulatory Agencies to find out the laws and definitions in your state. Bob , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > Bob, > > , " pemachophel2001 " > > In other words, unless Chinese herbs are part of > >your legal scope of practice, such practice is not alegal, it is > >illegal. > > We know that the expression " Chinese herbs " is used not because all > the herbs come from China as we all know that this is not the case but > rather because we choose herbs according to a system of diagnosing > based on Bian Zheng. My question is: what if someone used our > pharmacopoeia and in fact based the choice of herbs on a similar > paradigm as ours but did not used the tcm language. Would the mere act > of taking the pulse and inspecting the tongue be sufficient to > categorize someone as a tcm practitioner and thus practicing Chinese > medicine without a license? > > Regards, > > ~Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 Z'ev wrote: The ND's I know all practice under MD's or chiropractors. Not to beat a dead horse, but CAN they practice "under" MDs or DCs? Wouldn't that still be practicing medicine without a license? Bob, the schools do teach these things, but laws vary from state to state, laws change, and lots of people do engage in some questionable practices, even respected people in our communities, I am sorry to say (for example, the use of the title "doctor"). So all these things continue to create confusion within the professions and in the public. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 In a message dated 7/24/2002 12:45:40 PM Central Standard Time, alstone writes: Does that mean that Wild Oats and other national market chains that specialize in organic/natural/healthy packaged products are in danger of prosecution because they devote an entire aisle to the same Chinese herbal products that many of us use? The big difference here is that selling the herbs is one thing. Purporting to diagnose illness (by any system) and the recommending a treatment for it (prescribing) constitutes the practice of medicine in most states. Guy Porter DrGRPorter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 For an example of an act exempting athletic trainers from certain provisions of the Colorado Medical Practices Act, see: www.prolynx.com/cata/Legislation/An_Act.htm Bob , Julie Chambers <info@j...> wrote: > Z'ev wrote: > > The ND's I know all practice under MD's or chiropractors. > > > Not to beat a dead horse, but CAN they practice " under " MDs or DCs? Wouldn't that still be practicing medicine without a license? > > Bob, the schools do teach these things, but laws vary from state to state, laws change, and lots of people do engage in some questionable practices, even respected people in our communities, I am sorry to say (for example, the use of the title " doctor " ). So all these things continue to create confusion within the professions and in the public. > > Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 Z'ev, Acupuncturists also lobby against ND licensure in California. This is primarily due to legislative efforts by the ND community regarding acupuncture in the ND's scope of practice. They generally think it should be in the scope with no or insufficient minimum training requirements. This was true in New Hampshire where ND's gained acupuncture scope of practice while keeping licensed acupuncturists out. The NH issue has since changed with new acupuncture laws. Another issue is the "physician" right to insurance reimbursement. ND's have attempted in the past to control reimbursement for procedures such as acupuncture because they are "physicians." Now some of my best friends are ND's but the political agenda is fraught with questionable practices in my estimation. Will This effort has been held up by practitioners who have mail-order degrees or other forms of training outside of the naturopathic college model who want to be grandfathered into licensed practice. The ND's I know all practice under MD's or chiropractors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 Will, I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for sharing it with the group. It is interesting that naturopathic colleges now have Chinese medicine programs under their wing. On Wednesday, July 24, 2002, at 08:21 PM, WMorris116 wrote: > Z'ev, > > Acupuncturists also lobby against ND licensure in California. This is > primarily due to legislative efforts by the ND community regarding > acupuncture in the ND's scope of practice. They generally think it > should be in the scope with no or insufficient minimum training > requirements. This was true in New Hampshire where ND's gained > acupuncture scope of practice while keeping licensed acupuncturists > out. The NH issue has since changed with new acupuncture laws. > > Another issue is the " physician " right to insurance reimbursement. ND's > have attempted in the past to control reimbursement for procedures such > as acupuncture because they are " physicians. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > I can't imagine that they didn't check into this before setting up these > sales opportunities. they are in such danger if their employees diagnose illnesses and prescribe remedies. Sales of herbs and medical practice of herbology are two entirely different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 , Julie Chambers <info@j...> wrote: > If they are not L.Ac., could they still refer to themselves as " doctor " and > could they open a practice in CA? not a legal one I suppose a layperson can call themselves anything they want as long as they don't actually practice medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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