Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 I always tell my patients that there are infinate ways to get up the Mountain, as with the medicine I practice there are many ways to practice *S* >>>You have no argument with me here. I truly believe that in my practice to help the most of may patients I need more than just TCM. As far as meridians one may define the word in many ways and that what makes a professional lexicon. I have not read the book but it sounds like he takes a neural humeral approach Alon Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 Z'ev) The goal is not to speak and write general Chinese language. The goal of learning enough medical Chinese (a much more limited range of characters) to read basic texts is much more realistic. For example, if you had studied literary Spanish in order to read Borges in the original, this would be a more focused, and less time-consuming endeavor than learning to speak and write the language like a native. I am not saying that this isn't a valuable use of time, but unnecessary to further one's knowledge of Spanish literature. Similarly, learning to speak and read Chinese language at a graduate level is not necessary to access Chinese medical literature. It is apples and oranges to argue that it is not important to learn medical Chinese because of the aggressive treatment styles of some modern Chinese TCM doctors. I fail to see what one has to do with the other in forwarding the argument that one shouldn't consider learning medical Chinese. Zev >>>>This is not the argument the argument is can one only understand the principals in character or can you in English. Sure you can access more literature if you can read Chinese. The questions are (1) can anybody at this time even begin to truly master what is in English, (2) is there enough at this point in English, (3) is a practitioner for which outcome is the only criteria be better served studying Chinese or the available English literature Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 nodes of energy >>>Wow what's this Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 , " Teresa Hall " <Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote: > > > > (Teresa): > Z'ev, I hardley think that I made that up on my own!!! *lol* Dr. Kendall correlated connecting the dots of Acupoints which the Chinese have named individually and we in the West have put numbers to, to represent where they fall on a Meridian pathway. This is a very different thing than your earlier statement that he said that there are no such thing as " meridians " (jing-luo). The pathways are clearly laid out in Ling Shu 10 (as well as earlier texts from Mawangdui), with the acupuncture holes named in a definite sequence. Ling shu, Jiayijing, bronze man... all of these predated any Western involvement in acupuncture. From what I gathered in reading the PCOM article somebody linked us to was that his argument is that the Chinese used jing-luo to describe the neuro/vascular system during the Han period and that essentially jing-luo theory is not inconsistent with what we know today about human anatomy and physiology. I could be worng of course....... robert hayden http://jabinet.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 What is interesting about this, Robert, knowing your practice of Japanese acupuncture, is that jing-luo (channels and network vessels) are a politically dangerous concept to modern medicine. The Japanese government actually 'banned' the teaching and practice of meridian therapies, replacing them with 'pressure point' methods based on nerve pathways. The first book I bought on shiatsu in the 1970's was based on this method. . . I forget the author's name now (Japan Publications). While there certainly is a relationship and correlation between jing-luo and physiological structures and functions of the body, the neurological system is clearly insufficient and inaccurate in explaining the phenomenon of jing-luo. On Tuesday, July 30, 2002, at 08:10 PM, kampo36 wrote: > This is a very different thing than your earlier statement that he > said that there are no such thing as " meridians " (jing-luo). The > pathways are clearly laid out in Ling Shu 10 (as well as earlier > texts from Mawangdui), with the acupuncture holes named in a definite > sequence. Ling shu, Jiayijing, bronze man... all of these predated > any Western involvement in acupuncture. From what I gathered in > reading the PCOM article somebody linked us to was that his argument > is that the Chinese used jing-luo to describe the neuro/vascular > system during the Han period and that essentially jing-luo theory is > not inconsistent with what we know today about human anatomy and > physiology. I could be worng of course....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 Ver christie: Don't restrict us to the merely male-brained model. (Yes, there are studies showing that women use both hemispheres more often.) Marco: The point is a worthwhile considering both with regard to a Chinese medical paradigm that my current understanding is that it aims to take the shen1 with the ti and Xing not to separate the Shen2 i.e. body mind "symbioses" which by extension open ups the possibilities of considering emotions "a realm deem out side the scope of male job description". Apart from that i think it may be one problem of one-sided representation in all aspects regarding Chinese medicine apart from the majorities of patience are probably still female and hence anyone including my self need to develop male and female understanding and communication a topic fairly absent from the writing I have had the pleasure of accessing thus far. Will get A flourishing yin A.S.A.P. and I think and hope that someone called Sabena in Arizona will convert her theses into a book format publication but I have no more information as for now although the topic is gender related. Marco Bergh currently enrolled in a postgraduate course "interculturalidad y genero en el salud" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > What is interesting about this, Robert, knowing your practice of > Japanese acupuncture, is that jing-luo (channels and network vessels) > are a politically dangerous concept to modern medicine. The Japanese > government actually 'banned' the teaching and practice of meridian > therapies, replacing them with 'pressure point' methods based on nerve > pathways. The first book I bought on shiatsu in the 1970's was based on > this method. . . I forget the author's name now (Japan Publications). > Maybe Namikoshi, he was probably the first to really promote shiatsu (celebrity clients like Marilyn Monroe, etc) but he has a completely scientific stance. One story is that Janet Travell formed trigger point theory after observing his practice. One of the practitioners I respect the most, Tanioka sensei, told me he doesn't believe in Qi or meridians/channels. He bases his treatment methods and point selection on his highly refined palpatory skills rather than any kind of pattern discrimination -- but he's from an old Osaka acupuncturist family, so he has a very idiosyncratic style, very Japanese as opposed to Sino-Japanese (most of the shonishin tq, of which Tanioka sensei is an acknowledged master, come from Osaka/Kansai region). So even as attached as I am to the concept of jing-luo, I'm willing to consider that they may be something other than what we think they are (perhaps fictitious). But that is a very different thing than saying that they are a construction of Western interlopers and the Chinese " went along with it " . I can't imagine anyone with the credentials you mention Dr Kendall as having who would make such an assertion. Again, I could be wrnog... robert hayden http://jabinet.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 Yes, it was Namikoshi. Tanioka sensei as you mention below reminds me of Yoshimasu Todo, who in the 18th century (?) rejected all yin-yang and five phase theory as speculative, and based his herbal medicine practice just on palpation and dispelling toxin from the body. He was what Harris Coulter (in Divided Legacy) called an empiricist, one who bases one's practice on clinical experience, as opposed to a rationalist, one who bases his practice on medical theory (such as the Jin-Yuan authors). I, for one, do not believe that the channels are speculation. Speculation doesn't work clinically, and the channel maps do. On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 05:19 AM, kampo36 wrote: > The first book I bought on shiatsu in the 1970's was > based on > > this method. . . I forget the author's name now (Japan > Publications). > > > > Maybe Namikoshi, he was probably the first to really promote shiatsu > (celebrity clients like Marilyn Monroe, etc) but he has a completely > scientific stance. One story is that Janet Travell formed trigger > point theory after observing his practice. > > One of the practitioners I respect the most, Tanioka sensei, told me > he doesn't believe in Qi or meridians/channels. He bases his > treatment methods and point selection on his highly refined palpatory > skills rather than any kind of pattern discrimination -- but he's > from an old Osaka acupuncturist family, so he has a very > idiosyncratic style, very Japanese as opposed to Sino-Japanese (most > of the shonishin tq, of which Tanioka sensei is an acknowledged > master, come from Osaka/Kansai region). So even as attached as I am > to the concept of jing-luo, I'm willing to consider that they may be > something other than what we think they are (perhaps fictitious). > But that is a very different thing than saying that they are a > construction of Western interlopers and the Chinese " went along with > it " . I can't imagine anyone with the credentials you mention Dr > Kendall as having who would make such an assertion. > > Again, I could be wrnog... > > robert hayden > http://jabinet.net > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 According to Deke they are similuar to acupoints, some nodes cannot not be needle, however other modalities could be used. Teresa - Alon Marcus Tuesday, July 30, 2002 5:45 PM Re: Re: Chinese language nodes of energy >>>Wow what's this AlonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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