Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 Barbara and All > > Message: 16 > Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:32:47 EDT > BKirschb > Re: Digest Number 1071 > Hi ken, Ihope my answers will be of help to > you: Yes they are. Thanks for providing them, as I think they help to focus and clarify the discussion. I want to add a few additional comments. When I talk about the necessity of language study in the context of the study and practice of traditional Chinese medicine, I mainly have the language of the classics in mind, i.e., Classical Chinese. For those on the list who may not be aware of them, there are substantial differences between the ancient language in which the medical classics are all written, and the modern language. Grammar and syntax differ substantially. Characters have different meanings now than they had in centuries gone by. In fact one of the complex difficulties with reading Classical Chinese is that the meanings of characters have changed constantly throughout the centuries. So when reading a text, it's always important to understand clearly when it was written. There's been quite a bit of discussion in the past few days about language, and though I haven't been able to reply to the flow of it, I have read it day by day and will reply in general terms. raised a point about the " ethereal " nature of Chinese characters, and the discussion shifted accordingly. I'm not at all sure what had in mind with the word " ethereal " , but I don't believe that I, for one, have ever suggested that there is anything ethereal about Chinese characters that one has to inhale in order to understand Chinese medicine. What I have suggested is that the patterns of thinking, logic, strategy, and so forth that underlie the medical theories are important to understand for those who want to understand the medicine and its uses. These patterns of thought are of course intimately related to the patterns of the language in which those thoughts were formulated and expressed. An argument is often raised about the need to change and adapt the old theories to contemporary needs. " We're not Chinese. We don't live in ancient times. We have to be able to deal with the world of today. " Chinese of later periods were of course still Chinese, but they experienced quite similar circumstances with respect to needing to adapt the ancient transmissions to each successive " contemporary " time period. Of course doctors and patients in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, and many other Asian countries all had to make similar adaptations and changes. Of course there is a mandate to embrace such changes contained in the most fundamental theories of Chinese medicine. So one cannot argue against this point. But until the current efforts at reception of Chinese medicine in the West dating back several decades now, few if any have ever attempted to understand the medicine and adapt it to their contemporary needs without the benefit of understanding the texts that contain the gist of the subject. My point is that to understand these texts, that is, to understand the gist of the subject an individual simply has to be able to take a look at them for him or her self. Those who read only translations can be compared to a doctor who operates entirely on the basis of what someone else says the patient's pulse feels like or how the tongue appears. Does everyone have to become a Confucian scholar? Naturally there is no such prerequisite to the study of medicine. But famous Chinese doctors like Sun Si Miao have spelled out the prerequisites to the study of medicine. We quoted those in the foreword to Who Can Ride the Dragon? because we felt it was important for students in the West to see the standards set by their predecsssors. At this juncture, Todd usually asks, " So how much is enough? " And Alon Says, " Where's the beef? " It's a discussion that goes round and round on this list. Every time the point comes up Z'ev and I can be expected to repeat our parts in the round. " All one has to do is start. " What caught my attention in your post, it dawns on me now, is that someone reading it who was not at all familiar with the matter, might reasonably conclude that there was no point to learning the language of the medical classics as a way to grasp the gist of the subject. I suspect that that is not, precisely, your intention. But I could certainly be wrong. And in any case, whenever that note is struck I feel compelled so say my bit again. And again, it has nothing to do with anything ethereal or effervescent. It has to do with the nuts and bolts of the matter. We're dealing with ideas. There is an intimate relationship between language and ideas. To ignore it is risky. > > Did you learn to read the classical > language? > the modern language > > > Were there any particular texts you > used that you would recommend? > I used Paul Unschuld, chinesisch lesen und > schreiben lernen. I don`t know if > this is available in english. If I'm not mistaken they can be attained from www.paradigm-pubs.com I think Marco asked for that url recently to find the archives there, which are filled with some pretty fascinating stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 Marco, > > Message: 3 > Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:35:26 -0500 > " Marco " > " acupressure " > > Dear List(s) thanks for the responses... > > > Really thanks for the info, however I am still > not that clear wither > traditionally-historically-practically > " acupressure " was/is seen as a individual > therapy as promoted on various English language > web site or?. For what it is worth I will try > to convey that " acupressure " is part of other > treatment approaches, where the both patient > and practitioner need to be in a more > aware-intentional state. What do you know? We find ourselves talking about language and the meaning of words again. I'll take just a minute or two to make some comments about " accupressure " and related terms. If you talk to Ron Teaguarden, he'll tell you that he invented the term " accupressure " back in the late 60's or early 70's. He was certainly one of the early popularizers of the term and the whole discipline of Chinese massage therapy. I remember the first time I heard the term, which was in 1971 at the California Institute of the Arts. Whether or not Ron invented the term is moot. It stuck, and ever since people have generally referred to a variety of techniques of massage that stem from Chinese and other East Asian sources as " accupressure " . I think the term " shiatsu " is similarly if less broadly applied. More recently, I hear the Chinese term " tuina " . In Chinese there are two words that commonly mean " massage " . One is " tuina " and the other is " anmo " . Despite misconceptions in the West, neither suggests a specific set of techniques. Practitioners who describe their work with either or both know and use a variety of techniques and methods. [...] > > For example is it " true " that some Chinese > hospitals and clinics have specialised Tui Nai > departments (where presumably some form of " zhi > zhen (digital acupuncture which means the > fingers taking the place of the metallic > acupuncture needle); zhi ya liao fa (digital > pressure therapy); zhi ya fa (digital pressure > method ) " There are, indeed, clinics in Chinese hospitals as well as free-standing clinics that offer primarily or uniquely massage therapy. These range from curbside chairs to barbershop to " massage parlors " to small medical clinics to quite elaborately outfitted hospitals. What is done and how it is done is different in virtually each and every one. > And > > " yi zhi chan ( " one thumb meditation " was her > translation)... " > > Which gives a hint at a the larger process > involved in the clinical-therapeuticall > encounter-process and by extension involved in > life at large... When I teach the subject I stress the importance of these larger processes, life at large as you call it. After all, we only see patients for a tiny fraction of their life at large. So the interaction should include as much education as possible that the individual can use in his or her life at large. > > Marco Bergh (I really hope I am not abusing the > purpose of the lists) No doubt you are. But you are not alone. > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 Ken: There are, indeed, clinics in Chinese hospitalsas well as free-standing clinics that offerprimarily or uniquely massage therapy. Theserange from curbside chairs to barbershop to"massage parlors" to small medical clinics toquite elaborately outfitted hospitals. What is done and how it is done is differentin virtually each and every one.Marco: I know it to broad of a question to answer specific, but here goes anyways. also, since I am looking for information that can act as an agent in terms of animating promoting and more in-depth attitude and or study of both by government institutes and hospitals and Universities and individuals at large I ask the following: Could you just break down and summarise a bit about the difference within each setting? Marco (always very great full for comments-responses, and apologies for a delay in answering some very helpful letters...from members of the list...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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