Guest guest Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 > There seems to be a tacit implication in your > query to Barbara. > Please correct me if I am wrong. You seem to > be driving at the > fact that Barbara's studies focused on modern > chinese and > modern texts. The tacit implication is that if > the focus had been > on classical chinese and ancient texts, her > experience would > have been different. I asked simply because I wanted to know. I have no idea if the inference you have drawn is accurate or not. I was not and am not trying to establish anything as a natural law. I just wanted to know what Barbara had actually done that she found to be of little help in understanding the medicine so that we can try and avoid such things in the materials that we are currently developing. And, as I explained in my response to her answers, I also wanted to dispel the impression that readers of her post may have gotten that it is pointless to learn the language of the medical classics in order to understand what they say. Be that as it may (and I > believe it may), this > begs a question in my mind: Are you suggesting > that the study > of modern medical chinese is not sufficient, > that in order to really > grok CM it is necessary to take the full > plunge, so to speak. " The study of modern medical Chinese " needs to be defined. There is a vast nomenclature of medical terms in modern Chinese. Some of these terms relate to traditional Chinese medicine, and some relate to modern Western medicine. I am not really suggesting anything, other than what has long seemed to me to be an unavoidable fact of life: if you want to know what the Chinese medical classics say you should be able to read them. This means reading them in the language in which they were written. This language is not " modern medical Chinese, " unless we redefine " modern medical Chinese " to mean classical Chinese. The > reason I ask is because it is my understanding > that most > Chinese docs do not read the classical language Do you know how many " Chinese docs " there are? Hundreds and hundreds of thousands. I would be very reluctant to make assumptions about what most of these people do and do not understand. I've mentioned many times here that the standard curriculua for training doctors of traditional Chinese medicine in China includes a course called Ancient Chinese Medical Language in which native Chinese speakers are introduced to the language in which the medical classics are composed and in which the logic of the subject finds its roots. I think that non-Chinese students ought to be trained in a similar way, but we should take into account the fact of the differences between being born and raised in a Chinese language and culture environment and being born and raised in an English language and culture environment. Therefore it seems to me reasonable to assume that some sort of forestep would need to be added, since throwing a student into the study of Ancient Chinese Medical Language with no other introduction to the subject of the language in general might be too big a step for people to successfully take. > and most that > I have met also do not make regular study of > the classics as part > of their practice. Again, I cannot begin to make statements about what most Chinese doctors of TCM do and don't do. I know so relatively few. But I can tell you that I have yet to be in the home or office of a single one that does not have copies of many of the medical classics on the bookshelves. Also, if you browse in the bookstores that deal in traditional Chinese medical books, you find whole sections devoted to the classical literature. So the general impression that I have about the use of these texts is that there is a lively market in them, which suggests to me that people are reading them as well. > > I think its unlikely that majority of TCM > practitioners will ever read > modern chinese, much less classical. For those > who only dip > their toes in the pool, can they only expect to > get information and > not nuance. I think it is important for people > to have realistic > goals. If one goes into the study of chinese > language for this > more ephemeral quality, then one needs to > choose the right > approach. Certainly the study of the classical > language and > classical texts is far more difficult than the > modern in several > ways (grammar, context, definitional changes > over time). Now if > the study of the modern texts and modern > language only yields > information, then standardized translations > will do for that > segment of the population. I honestly don't know what problem you are trying to solve. I don't know any more realistic goal than learning to read. If someone wants to understand the Chinese medical classics, he or she should learn to read them. It's a difficult task, but the more I work with developing materials to help students accomplish it, the more I tend to believe that it is a very realistic goal for anyone who recognizes the need to develop a personal understanding of what these texts are all about. > > I guess this gets back to the volume of work > that is untranslated. > An idea Jim Ramholz has mentioned several times > resurfaced > in my mind. While even translating into a > standardized english > terminology is laborious work that requires the > high skills and > concentration of indiviudal human beings, it > would seem to me > that translation into pinyin could be done > automatically (Bob > Felt, am I right?). Bob will no doubt address this question, but I can tell you that when it comes to translation of any kind whatsoever, nothing can be done automatically. Why would you want a bunch of books written out in pinyin? With the cheap printing > facilities in the PRC, a > 1000 books could be available in no time and a > cross section of > journals could easily be so " translated " as > well. I agree wholeheartedly that the production capacity available in the PRC can and should and no doubt will be tapped to provide more and more texts on the subject in translation. This is related to the questions we're discussing above, but quite different. > > I originally argued against this idea, not > because it was without > merit, but because I was making the case at the > time that > learning a terminology like Wiseman's, as > difficult as it may be > was still easier than reading pinyin. But that > is really besides > the point. No editing would be necessary for > such a pinyin > translation and all that would be necessary for > readers would be > several pinyin-english dictionaries (standard, > western med and > TCM). there are already standard pinyin > dictionaries and the PD > can be used to access terms by pinyin. It also > occurred to me > that I am already familiar with hundreds of > pinyin medical terms, > even if I can't read most of the characters > (herb names, many > points, organs, diseases, syndromes, body parts > and > substances, pathogens, classical texts, famous > physicians, > etc.). One of my early Chinese teachers convinced me not to use or rely upon pinyin. Most of the attempts in the PRC to replace characters with pinyin have failed. Pinyin has a certain function, I suppose; but I highly doubt the efficacy of a bunch of pinyin texts. > > Texts created along these lines would ideally > be published with > characters and pinyin side by side. This would > provide easy > access for english readers plus an opportunity > to learn chinese > along the way. The pinyin would convey at > least as much > meaning as wiseman terminology. But the main > benefit is the > sheer volume of material that could be made > available overnight. Your estimation of the effort...and time and hence financial resources required to produce such books might change were you to do a single such volume. But I am always on the lookout for new solutions to such challenges. If the books you are envisioning did indeed present both characters and pinyin, then my comments about pinyin are not so germane. But then you'd basically just be publishing books in Chinese that included pinyin. Sooner or later readers will learn the characters. My experience in learning Chinese has been that reliance upon pinyin retards this process rather than speed it up. > I know it is still not " easy " to read pinyin. > One must stillbe > familiar enough with the structure of chinese > to know how to > identify when characters are being used singly > or in combination > terms, but this also the burden of the chinese > character reader. > > I can't remember. What were the cogent > objections to this idea. > Are these people out there who are unlikely to > master reading > chinese, but who would access books of this > nature? Is there > something I am overlooking here? So far as ideas go, the only objection I have is to the emphasis you seem to be placing on pinyin as the panacea for the translation/transmission problems. It hasn't worked for the Chinese; and I doubt that it will work for anybody else. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 , <yulong@m...> wrote: > > Why would you want a bunch of books > written out in pinyin? (..........) I think the only real advantage to this would be elimination of the need to learn stroke-order to look terms up. Todd's is an intriguing idea, but I for one seem to be able to recognize characters more readily than remember which tone goes with which phoneme. So were I to face an all-pinyin book I think my eyes would start crossing more quickly than if it were a book entirely in characters. (for the record, I am an autodidact and my experience is primarily in reading acumoxa texts in Japanese -- though I can't speak or understand spoken Japanese at all. so nuance is out of the question; i rely on japanese-fluent friends for that.) > > > If the books you are envisioning did > indeed present both characters and pinyin, > then my comments about pinyin are not > so germane. But then you'd basically > just be publishing books in Chinese > that included pinyin. Why not go for this? Those that feel pinyin is enough can ignore the characters, those that want to learn characters can use pinyin as an aid to learning. Nobody so far has mentioned machine translators as a bridge -- I have found some benefit in using software to at least look things up faster. The technology is becoming sufficiently advanced that I would think schools at least might invest in doing machine translation of journals from the PRC. Some input would be needed in setting up the software to read medical characters, though as was pointed out in Wiseman's Bensky tirade many of the terms in TCM are made up of commonly-used characters. All that would be needed would be to configure the software to recognize and translate the characters in a medical sense. I'd imagine Bob Felt could comment on this matter as well. robert hayden http://jabinet.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Frances, > > Message: 5 > Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:24:17 -0400 > Frances Gander > 'having sex with a ghost' > > I have been wondering what are some possible > ways we can interpret " having sex with a > ghost. " I saw it again in Ken Rose's Who Can > Ride the Dragon, occurring in a Peng Zhu quote > (p. 185). It has something to do with > exhaustion of the spirit (shen?). What is the > connection here? My understanding of this idiom > is that this 'ghost' illness follows from > repression of sexual urges. In males, symptoms > are semen leakage and turbid urine. In women, I > assume this shows up as dryness and cold lower > jiao. > Further, it is said that " there is an herbal > formula " for this illness. Does anyone know > what this formula is or might be? I always like to point out that Who Can Ride the Dragon? was written by myself and my wife, Zhang Yu Huan. I raised your question with her after dinner this evening, and here are our thoughts on the matter. First, to clarify the Chinese expression involved, it is gui3 jiao1. Gui3, is often translated into English as " ghost. " And sometimes the sense in the Chinese usage is roughly equivalent with whatever we understand a ghost to be in English. In many cases, the sense is more akin to the ancient Greek word " daimon " from which we get the English word " demon " . Rather than being the spirits of departed people (or animals), " daimon " were understood to be that native, animate forces/entities that were alive within all objects, including inanimate objects. Sometimes the Chinese word " gui3 " is used in this sense. In the expression, gui3 jiao, there is a characteristic borrowing of meanings going on. Gui3, in this phrase, can probably be understood as " ghost " , which is why we translated it as ghost in the book. Jiao1 literally means to connect, and is often used as an element in a compound which means sexual connection, i.e., intercourse. Thus the somewhat literal minded rendering of " gui3 jiao1 " as " having sex with a ghost. " As to its medical meanings, here's how Yuhuan and I both understand it. It does indeed have something to do with shen2 and the pathomechanisms of gui3 jiao1, a disease in traditional Chinese medical terms, have to do with the vacuity of the heart (and sometimes the kidney) yin1. If the heart yin1 and/or heart blood (an aspect of the yin1) are empty, the yang2 is not contained and consolidated. Therefore the heart spirit (shen2) cannot be quiet, and during sleep this manifests as dream encounters with " ghosts " . When these encounters take on a sexual character, the doctor can see a glimpse of the organ pathologies that are likely in play. Other indications of this condition are those typical signs of xu1, some of which you have already noted. As to its causes, you thought of sexual repression, and there is certainly a sound logic to support such a conclusion. I can also imagine a case of a lack of sexual restraint resulting in the same condition. As in all such determinations, it all depends on the individual case. In traditional China (not to mention to a remarkable extent in contemporary China) a great deal of importance is placed on the dead, spirits, ghosts, and their influences over the living. I suppose that at some point the notion of " having sex with a ghost " may have been more literally conceived of as stemming from contact or connection between the patient and a ghost. The ability of ghosts in Chinese literature to drain the vital essence from a person, lends to such an idea a particularly onerous tone. Chinese expressions are full of metaphorical if not fanciful comparisons and contrasts that make the language not only colorful and memorable but curiously insightful. This is one example. As to herbal formulas: there are many, and though I haven't done enough study to be able to confirm this, my hunch is that the condition was not all that rare in Chinese clinics. We have collected up many of these formulas in a couple of chapters of our next book, One Square Inch, which is about Chinese sexual culture and its relationship to medical theory and practice. I will have to look through the manuscript to see if I can find a couple to post here. But when you seem them, I think you'll find them to be remarkably simple and more or less what you'd expect to see in formulas to nourish yin1. I hope this helps. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Ken, Thank you and Zhang Yu Huan for your elucidation on my questions about 'having sex with a ghost.'. With all of your explanations about the heart-kidney relation in this matter, I surmise that the herb formula would need to address this particular xu pattern and the presence of the entity or 'ghost', and so go beyond what some of us may dismiss as 'wet dreaming.' Lots more to it than that, and it depends on the individual case and its details. I didn't think about the 'hungry ghost' aspect. This is an interesting connection. Frances > Message: 5 > Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:24:17 -0400 > Frances Gander > 'having sex with a ghost' > > I have been wondering what are some possible > ways we can interpret "having sex with a > ghost." I saw it again in Ken Rose's Who Can > Ride the Dragon, occurring in a Peng Zhu quote > (p. 185). It has something to do with > exhaustion of the spirit (shen?). What is the > connection here? My understanding of this idiom > is that this 'ghost' illness follows from > repression of sexual urges. In males, symptoms > are semen leakage and turbid urine. In women, I > assume this shows up as dryness and cold lower > jiao. > Further, it is said that "there is an herbal > formula" for this illness. Does anyone know > what this formula is or might be? Frances, I always like to point out that Who Can Ride the Dragon? was written by myself and my wife, Zhang Yu Huan. I raised your question with her after dinner this evening, and here are our thoughts on the matter. First, to clarify the Chinese expression involved, it is gui3 jiao1. Gui3, is often translated into English as "ghost." And sometimes the sense in the Chinese usage is roughly equivalent with whatever we understand a ghost to be in English. In many cases, the sense is more akin to the ancient Greek word "daimon" from which we get the English word "demon". Rather than being the spirits of departed people (or animals), "daimon" were understood to be that native, animate forces/entities that were alive within all objects, including inanimate objects. Sometimes the Chinese word "gui3" is used in this sense. In the expression, gui3 jiao, there is a characteristic borrowing of meanings going on. Gui3, in this phrase, can probably be understood as "ghost", which is why we translated it as ghost in the book. Jiao1 literally means to connect, and is often used as an element in a compound which means sexual connection, i.e., intercourse. Thus the somewhat literal minded rendering of "gui3 jiao1" as "having sex with a ghost." As to its medical meanings, here's how Yuhuan and I both understand it. It does indeed have something to do with shen2 and the pathomechanisms of gui3 jiao1, a disease in traditional Chinese medical terms, have to do with the vacuity of the heart (and sometimes the kidney) yin1. If the heart yin1 and/or heart blood (an aspect of the yin1) are empty, the yang2 is not contained and consolidated. Therefore the heart spirit (shen2) cannot be quiet, and during sleep this manifests as dream encounters with "ghosts". When these encounters take on a sexual character, the doctor can see a glimpse of the organ pathologies that are likely in play. Other indications of this condition are those typical signs of xu1, some of which you have already noted. As to its causes, you thought of sexual repression, and there is certainly a sound logic to support such a conclusion. I can also imagine a case of a lack of sexual restraint resulting in the same condition. As in all such determinations, it all depends on the individual case. In traditional China (not to mention to a remarkable extent in contemporary China) a great deal of importance is placed on the dead, spirits, ghosts, and their influences over the living. I suppose that at some point the notion of "having sex with a ghost" may have been more literally conceived of as stemming from contact or connection between the patient and a ghost. The ability of ghosts in Chinese literature to drain the vital essence from a person, lends to such an idea a particularly onerous tone. Chinese expressions are full of metaphorical if not fanciful comparisons and contrasts that make the language not only colorful and memorable but curiously insightful. This is one example. As to herbal formulas: there are many, and though I haven't done enough study to be able to confirm this, my hunch is that the condition was not all that rare in Chinese clinics. We have collected up many of these formulas in a couple of chapters of our next book, One Square Inch, which is about Chinese sexual culture and its relationship to medical theory and practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Actually, the software tools have really improved. . . I am using Wenlin for OS X (Mac), and it is a great tool, and you learn as you go. Wenlin is also on all the computers at PCOM. On Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 04:52 AM, kampo36 wrote: > Nobody so far has mentioned machine translators as a bridge -- I have > found some benefit in using software to at least look things up > faster. The technology is becoming sufficiently advanced that I > would think schools at least might invest in doing machine > translation of journals from the PRC. Some input would be needed in > setting up the software to read medical characters, though as was > pointed out in Wiseman's Bensky tirade many of the terms in TCM are > made up of commonly-used characters. All that would be needed would > be to configure the software to recognize and translate the > characters in a medical sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Al, > > I've always heard that term used in reference > to masturbation, though it > does lead me to wonder what is meant by " riding > the dragon " . : ) If you really want to know, hop in your car and drive out to Joshua Tree. Park at Keys View and walk up the slope that lies to the east. Find a comfy place to sit for an hour or so. Let me know what happens. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 yulong wrote: > If you really want to know, hop in > your car and drive out to Joshua > Tree. Park at Keys View and walk > up the slope that lies to the east. > Find a comfy place to sit for an > hour or so. > > Let me know what happens. Ha! I know the location, Keys View. Haven't walked up the slope though... I'll check it out next time I'm over there. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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