Deke Kendall

[Guest guest]

While this post is very assertive in its arguments,

I believe it centers around points of fact.

However, in fairness, Deke will be given a chance

to respond to this on the list. What follows is solely

the opinion of the author signed below -- moderator

 

POST BEGINS:

 

I too, was at Deke Kendall's seminar two weeks ago. It was at Fred

Lerner's orthopedic-acupuncture seminar in Los Angeles. Though I do

not share Teresa Hall's views, I was happy to see her comments. I

didn't think anyone would believe me. He actually did make the

comments she claimed.

He claimed that most everything we learned about the meridians was a

mistranslation by westerners. Yes Z'ev, he actually did say that it

was all about westerners " connecting the dots. " He claimed that

the Chong Mai was no more than the aorta, and that all the other

branches were no more than mistranslations by westerners. " It says

so in the Nei Jing. " At least 50 times during the weekend, he

backed up his claims with: " It says so in the Nei Jing. " This whole

seminar was video taped.

He claimed that the Du Mai was a combination of the ascending

lumbar, azygos, and hemiazygos veins. A student asked how then does

the Du Mai go all the way to Du 28. He did not answer the question;

he evaded it.

The lecture began on Friday evening with Mr. Kendall going on

about the many mistranslations of the Nei Jing. He trashed everyone

else and now has correctly translated it. He kept throwing out

these absurd little translations. " Tai Yang, that translates the

Sun in the Nei Jing. And Shao Yang; that's the Stars. "

During a break, I asked him where he learned Chinese. With great

pride he exclaimed: " I taught myself. "

I asked: " You taught yourself Chinese as well as Classical

Chinese? "

He replied: " Yes. I tried to take a class- three times! Every

time they kicked me out. The classes were full of Chinese. I asked

why all these Chinese were in there. They said: " Oh, they're just

looking for A's. And they kicked me out! "

Does anyone in their right mind believe that a self-taught Chinese

translator could navigate the Nei Jing? How about all the errors in

the Nei Jing? Like the part in chapter 5 where everyone agrees that

the scribe just transposed the characters. He put sweet where he

should have put bitter, and bitter where he should have put sweet.

I wonder what great significance a self taught Chinese translator

would attribute to that.

During a break someone asked about his Ph.D.; that

information is conspicuously absent from his bio. He said it was in

something like integrative Physiology (?), and never did say where he

got it.

He claimed that all the meridians were accounted for by muscles and

vessels. " It says so in the Nei Jing. " Everything else, all the

branches were just mistranslations by westerners. One example he

gave was of the Large Intestine Tendinomuscular Meridian. He

pointed out the " translation " claims that the meridian `crosses over

the top of the head and ends at the mandible on the opposite side of

the face.' He stated with sarcasm: " And I personally don't know

any muscle that does that! " He's correct that there is no muscle

that does that. A sterling example of his flawed premise. He

states that the meridian ends at the lower temporalis. " It says so

in the Nei Jing. "

He claimed that the term " TCM " is a western

fabrication. " There's no such thing as `TCM' in China. It just

something made up by westerners. " I would refer Mr. Kendall to

page 8 of CMX(Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion, Foreign Language

Press, Beijing, 1987) for one of the many places he might have

checked for an explanation for the term " TCM. " It most certainly is

Chinese. It differentiates between the organization of the medicine

under Chairman Mao Zedong and the communists, and what had gone on

before. The forward was written by Hu Ximing, Vice-Minister of the

Ministry of Public Health, Director of the State Administration of

TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICINE, the People's Republic of China.

He kept insisting that everyone buy his book or they wouldn't

be able to follow the lecture. He also handed out a set of notes.

But the vast majority of his lecture was in slide presentation format

on his computer which he hooked up to an overhead screen. Those

notes he refused to hand out, though he was asked on several

occasions.

From those notes he established that the Bladder meridian was a

series of muscles. " It says so in the Nei Jing. " In one part of

those notes he gave a list of muscles which he claims are the Bladder

Meridian:

abductor digiti minimi pedis

peroneus brevis

soleus

gastrocenemius

biceps femoris, etc.

 

Looking up at it he said: " I wonder why I put them in that

order. Oh! I know, that's how they're described in the Nei Jing. "

I asked him where in the Nei Jing it says that. He

replied: " Chapter 13, I believe. "

When he was describing the Gall Bladder meridian, he felt

that the Frontalis muscle belonged to the Gall Bladder

meridian. " But the Chinese did not assign the Frontalis to the Gall

Bladder meridian, they assigned it to the Bladder. "

He also claimed that there was no such thing as wind. Low

back or leg pain that moves from one side to another was always

there: " but the major pain has now subsided. " (so now you feel it on

the other side).

On Saturday morning he gave a lecture on western anatomy and

physiology. He did not teach anything, he just had these lists of

things that he read off. He did not explain their significance nor

did he tie them to anything else in his lecture. He just kept

reading these endless lists:

" fast twitch

slow twitch

alpha fibers

beta fibers, etc.

On and on and on, it went on for hours. It seemed like he was just

listing the contents page of an anatomy and physiology textbook.

When he got to the muscle fibers, he announced: " You'd be

surprised; MD's and Vets don't know there are different kinds of

muscle fibers. "

Another time he was talking about muscle fibers and muscle

fatigue. He stated: " And that is why there are no nodes (which is

what he calls points) over fast twitch muscle fibers. "

I went to one of the Chinese MD/Acupuncturists in San Diego and

repeated these two statements.

He said: " We don't know the difference between muscle

fibers!? What do you think we did in Medical School? I certainly

did. And, whom do you think came up with these concepts,

Acupuncturists? "

In regards to there being no points over fast twitch muscle

fibers he stated: " That is not true. This man is very cute, he

counts on the fact that Western Drs. don't know where the points are

and the acupuncturists don't know physiology that well. But it is

not true. "

During this anatomy/physiology lecture, one of the

participants asked Mr. Kendall where she could learn more about this

(the A & P lists). He took a big sigh and said: " Well, you should get

an anatomy book, Carmine's is good. Then you will have to get a book

on the heart. You'll have to know how the heart and the vessels

work. And then you'll have to get a book on the immune system.

You'll really need to understand that. " He left people with the

vague feeling that he had somehow come up with all these lists on his

own.

A better man would have said: " This is just basic Anatomy

and Physiology. It is taught in every university, college and

community college in the United States. It is unfortunate that you

did not have this as part of your acupuncture program. The State of

California thinks you got this. But now, you could just go to your

local community college and sign up for a basic A & P course. And you

will get a much better explanation than I am doing here. Or, if

that is too much, just go to their bookstore and get a used A & P

textbook and go through it. Once you get going, you'll see that it

is not that daunting. " Mr. Kendall made no such comments.

I then went to a Chinese professor who now lives in San

Diego. He was a full professor of TCM at University of Nanjing. His

specialty was the classics.

I asked him if I had missed something. After four years of

private classes with him, did I miss the part in the Nei Jing were it

identifies the aorta as the chong, or the bladder meridian as a

series of muscles. He assured me that these things are not to be

found in the Nei Jing.

He did say: " The Nei Jing does say that there are no

meridians, and later it says that the meridians are very real

things. The Nei Jing is constantly contradicting itself, like

opposing forces of yin and yang. And some minds just cannot handle

that. And, remember it is just the Nei Jing. Just one book. And

some people say it's not the best. There are many books. "

At the end of the weekend, I went to Fred Lerner to complain

about the waste of time and money. Fred is a chiropractor and is

very clear that he understands nothing about TCM. His

response: " You acupuncturists just can't get along. " He said that

every time he offers the acupuncture part of his seminar, there are

massive complaints. He says that he has known Mr. Kendall for

over 15 years and everyone has the highest regard for him. He said

that the Chinese just threw a dinner in his honor in L.A.

By the way this is the seminar which Fred is hoping to have the

State require for acupuncture/orthopedics certification. The western

parts which Fred teaches are excellent, and I highly them for anyone

would like to review western symptomology and western

orthopedics. But the geeks and the informercials, I cannot

support.

My feeling is that there are too many of these Mr. Kendalls

in our industry. Twenty-five years ago very few people understood

TCM and most of those spoke little or no English. It was very easy

to BS. Those same BS-ers are still stumbling around. They have been

getting away with it for so long, they don't even realize how bad

they are. They just make fools of themselves and embarrass our

whole industry. We will never gain respect until this nonsense dies

off.

Hey, Z'ev I have a copy of that book. I paid $50 for it and

would be more that happy with retrieving $25 of my money back. Then

I won't feel so guilty about dumping the book on you.

 

Meggin Sullivan

[Guest guest]

Low back or leg pain that moves from one side to another was always there: "but the major pain has now subsided." (so now you feel it on the other side).>>>>>He definitely needs a basic course in orthopedics

 

 

" We don't know the difference between muscle fibers!? What do you think we did in Medical School? I certainly did. And, whom do you think came up with these concepts, Acupuncturists?">>>Who does he think came up with this stuff, the Nei Jing?. Also there are no pure muscles of fast and slow twitch. They all mixed.

 

"That is not true. This man is very cute, he counts on the fact that Western Drs. don't know where the points are and the acupuncturists don't know physiology that well. But it is not true."

>>>>Again there are no pure muscles, and one can change the predominece of fibers by training for example

 

The fact that a whole class set through this is just another example of poor training of the profession

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Meggin,

This is a delicate subject, because it involves someone I respect as

a colleague and friend, even as I disagree with his basic premises.

 

I think there is a problem here with marketing. If the topic was

presented as it was at the Pacific Symposium last year, as a personal

point-of-view on channels and physiology, no problem. A student can

agree or disagree. The fact that it was part of a package for the basis

of certification in a specialty makes it a more difficult matter, in

that Deke's information is hardly the mainstream knowledge of the

subject (orthopedic acupuncture).

 

Second topic: being self-taught in medical Chinese. It is possible

for some individuals. I couldn't do it myself without tutors, but I

remember Bob Flaws saying that he was self-taught in medical Chinese

(please correct me, Bob, if I am wrong about this). The Nei Jing is

available in simplified characters, so it is possible to read it. I

know for a fact that Deke has studied this book for many years. I don't

agree with his assumptions or conclusions, but he does have aceess to

the text. What he reads into it is his own opinion, which can be

refuted by those who know the text if they choose.

 

Third topic: the Nei Jing itself. You mention a Chinese physician

who says that the Nei Jing says that channels both exist and don't

exist. Rather than make this into a Zen koan, we must recognize that

the Nei Jing is a compilation of material written at different times.

Various commentaries have been written over the years to elucidate on

various issues, including the Nan Jing. Different ideas can be taken

from the (Nei Jing) text, but the fact remains that the core of CM

theory is all based on this text: yin yang, five phase, channels,

chronobiology, points (holes) and indications, pulse diagnosis, and much

more. I agree, there is no way one can say that channels were made up

by Westerners through any reading of this text. There are a lot of

interesting comparisions that can be made between modern

anatomy/physiology and ideas from the Nei Jing, but we have to be

careful not to read too much into these analogies (and make premature

conclusions).

 

I, for one, am patiently awaiting the first volumes of Paul

Unschuld's translation of the Nei Jing, which I know will have the

Chinese text, translation, and commentaries, along with an eventual

glossary of terms and historical analysis. It will give

English-speaking readers an unparalleled access to the text, and a

doorway into the classical literature that doesn't exist in English at

this time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Friday, August 16, 2002, at 04:13 PM, megginsullivan wrote:

 

> I too, was at Deke Kendall's seminar two weeks ago.  It was at Fred

> Lerner's orthopedic-acupuncture seminar in Los Angeles.   Though I do

> not share Teresa Hall's views, I was happy to see her comments. 

[Guest guest]

Thank you " " for your thoughtful response to Meggin

Sullivan's post.

 

I also attended Deke's Lecture both at this module and at PCOM.

After reading Meggin's post I was questioning whether I had been at

the same event. I had a quite a different experience of the weekend -

very positive. I am quite thankful for the information presented,

it is crystallizing many of the principles that I learned in school.

And I look forward as we begin to evaluate and track the

effectiveness of and the analogies between Chinese

and Western Medicine. Deke mentioned that this provides a basis for

study and evaluation - not doctrine.

 

I would like to add a comment on Topic One of your post. It was

mentioned MANY times in the weekend that what was presented as a

point-of-view on channels and physiology. How an attendee could have

missed that concept is very concerning to me. Please be aware that I

received the same objective view of the material that I had when Deke

presented at PCOM. I also attended Dr Gu's module in the course last

year, this material was far more useful to me.

 

In her posting, Megan completely misquotes a question I posed to

Mr. Kendall. I can only comment on this single item. His response

was quite adequate to my question. I asked him for good reference

texts, I was looking for a neurophysiology reference as well as his

personal reference choices. I have 4 A/P references already in my

library. The Dao of has over 360 references.

Although he did not have a list at the tip of his tongue, he did NOT

leave me with " the feeling he came up with these on his own. " I

caution anyone against putting words in peoples mouths regarding

answers one would have liked to hear from a question misunderstood.

 

I am thankful for those with a scientific orientation that are

taking the time to learn, practice and write about our medicine.

With an engineering background it has been quite frustrating seeing

the lack of quality analysis. We have a long way to go.

 

Debra Clydesdale L.Ac. B.Sc. Elecrical Engineering

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> Meggin,

> This is a delicate subject, because it involves someone I

respect as

> a colleague and friend, even as I disagree with his basic premises.

>

> I think there is a problem here with marketing. If the topic

was

> presented as it was at the Pacific Symposium last year, as a

personal

> point-of-view on channels and physiology, no problem. A student

can

> agree or disagree. The fact that it was part of a package for the

basis

> of certification in a specialty makes it a more difficult matter,

in

> that Deke's information is hardly the mainstream knowledge of the

> subject (orthopedic acupuncture).

>

> Second topic: being self-taught in medical Chinese. It is

possible

> for some individuals. I couldn't do it myself without tutors, but

I

> remember Bob Flaws saying that he was self-taught in medical

Chinese

> (please correct me, Bob, if I am wrong about this). The Nei Jing

is

> available in simplified characters, so it is possible to read it.

I

> know for a fact that Deke has studied this book for many years. I

don't

> agree with his assumptions or conclusions, but he does have aceess

to

> the text. What he reads into it is his own opinion, which can be

> refuted by those who know the text if they choose.

>

> Third topic: the Nei Jing itself. You mention a Chinese

physician

> who says that the Nei Jing says that channels both exist and don't

> exist. Rather than make this into a Zen koan, we must recognize

that

> the Nei Jing is a compilation of material written at different

times.

> Various commentaries have been written over the years to elucidate

on

> various issues, including the Nan Jing. Different ideas can be

taken

> from the (Nei Jing) text, but the fact remains that the core of CM

> theory is all based on this text: yin yang, five phase, channels,

> chronobiology, points (holes) and indications, pulse diagnosis, and

much

> more. I agree, there is no way one can say that channels were made

up

> by Westerners through any reading of this text. There are a lot

of

> interesting comparisions that can be made between modern

> anatomy/physiology and ideas from the Nei Jing, but we have to be

> careful not to read too much into these analogies (and make

premature

> conclusions).

>

> I, for one, am patiently awaiting the first volumes of Paul

> Unschuld's translation of the Nei Jing, which I know will have the

> Chinese text, translation, and commentaries, along with an eventual

> glossary of terms and historical analysis. It will give

> English-speaking readers an unparalleled access to the text, and a

> doorway into the classical literature that doesn't exist in English

at

> this time.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> On Friday, August 16, 2002, at 04:13 PM, megginsullivan wrote:

>

> > I too, was at Deke Kendall's seminar two weeks ago.  It was at

Fred

> > Lerner's orthopedic-acupuncture seminar in Los Angeles.   Though

I do

> > not share Teresa Hall's views, I was happy to see her comments. 

[Guest guest]

I paid $50 for it and would be more that happy with retrieving $25 of my money back.

>>>Maggin can you sell me the copy

Thanks Alon