FW: Clinial Menopause Questions : Clinical Evaluation of Menopause

[Guest guest]

----------

" rey tiquia " <rey

Clinial Menopause Questions : Clinical Evaluation of Menopause

Sun, Aug 18, 2002, 2:37 PM

 

 

August 18,2002 2:32 pm

Melbourne Australia

 

Dear Michael,

 

From your own account of the clinical encounters you had with menopausal

women you seem to have succeeded in treating a number of menopausal

complaints using herbs which addressed the respective patient's individual

clinial patterns or zheng hou . However,instead of " directly verifying this

in any text that I (you) have " , i suggest that you should instead do a

clinical evaluation using the same parameters you used in working out the

clinical pattern or using your word the " potterns' of that patient. For a

start, you can write up a case study of one of the 'typical' patients you

have looked after and then post it to the list data base.

 

As for the case of the post-menopausal patient who suffers from

decalsification, you have to do a clinical pattern differentiation by first

collecting all data from the execution of the Four Examination Techniques of

1) observing (including observing the tongue) , 2) inquiring, 3) smelling

and listening 4) palpating (including pulse) and then 'sorting out' these

data using Zang-fu , Jing luo, etc. as templates to come out with a

diagnosis of 'kidney yin deficiency' . Once this is done you can work out a

formula or a Fang (herb, food, exercise, advise ) for this patient.Then

monitor the patients' response to your 'formulae' by using the Four

Examination Technique as a clinical evaluation tool. I refer to this process

as bian zheng ping zhi which translates into English as " evaluating the

treatment administered in accordance with the diagnosed clinical pattern " .

You may write up yourcase study for this patient and then you may post to

the list data base forothers to evaluate and learn from it.

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

Phd Candidate

Dept. of History and PHilosophy of Science

The University of Melbourne

Parkville

Victoria

Australia

[Guest guest]

Once this is done you can work out aformula or a Fang (herb, food, exercise, advise ) for this patient.Thenmonitor the patients' response to your 'formulae' by using the FourExamination Technique as a clinical evaluation tool.

>>>>The question is different

Even after doing this can you say that bone density will change?

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <

 

> Even after doing this can you say that bone density will

change?

> Alon

 

not unless you a modern western bone density exam.

 

[Guest guest]

Rey Tiquia:

 

Thanks for your response. While I appreciate the offer to post the

full cases, that was not my intent. I am simply looking to hear from

my collegues if the return of menses is a common result of treatment

in their clinical experience.

 

In the case of bone decalcification, the woman is not a current

patient. She merely told me she has shown decalcification in a bone

scan and wonder if there was anything I could do for that. I did

treat her for musculoskeletal complaints before (acupuncture only)

and I don't recall anything remarkable about her kidneys.

 

What I really want to know is how others are integrating the results

of western biomedical tests (e.g. bone scans) into the TCM diagnosis.

 

Michael

 

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

>

>

> ----------

> " rey tiquia " <rey@a...>

> Clinial Menopause Questions : Clinical Evaluation of

Menopause

> Sun, Aug 18, 2002, 2:37 PM

>

>

> August 18,2002 2:32 pm

> Melbourne Australia

>

> Dear Michael,

>

> From your own account of the clinical encounters you had with

menopausal

> women you seem to have succeeded in treating a number of menopausal

> complaints using herbs which addressed the respective patient's

individual

> clinial patterns or zheng hou . However,instead of " directly

verifying this

> in any text that I (you) have " , i suggest that you should

instead do a

> clinical evaluation using the same parameters you used in working

out the

> clinical pattern or using your word the " potterns' of that

patient. For a

> start, you can write up a case study of one of the 'typical'

patients you

> have looked after and then post it to the list data base.

>

> As for the case of the post-menopausal patient who suffers from

> decalsification, you have to do a clinical pattern differentiation

by first

> collecting all data from the execution of the Four Examination

Techniques of

> 1) observing (including observing the tongue) , 2) inquiring, 3)

smelling

> and listening 4) palpating (including pulse) and then 'sorting out'

these

> data using Zang-fu , Jing luo, etc. as templates to come out with a

> diagnosis of 'kidney yin deficiency' . Once this is done you can

work out a

> formula or a Fang (herb, food, exercise, advise ) for this

patient.Then

> monitor the patients' response to your 'formulae' by using the Four

> Examination Technique as a clinical evaluation tool. I refer to

this process

> as bian zheng ping zhi which translates into English as " evaluating

the

> treatment administered in accordance with the diagnosed clinical

pattern " .

> You may write up yourcase study for this patient and then you may

post to

> the list data base forothers to evaluate and learn from it.

>

> Regards,

>

> Rey Tiquia

> Phd Candidate

> Dept. of History and PHilosophy of Science

> The University of Melbourne

> Parkville

> Victoria

> Australia

[Guest guest]

Postmenopausal osteoporosis is one of the diseases I'm especially

interested in. Over the last seven or eight years, I have translated a

dozen or more Chinese articles (maybe even 20) showing that internally

administered Chinese medicinals prescribed on the basis of pattern

discrimination can increase bone density. These translations are

included in Blue Poppy Institute's Gynecology Certification Program.

 

Bob Flaws

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " Alon Marcus " <

>

> > Even after doing this can you say that bone density will

> change?

> > Alon

>

> not unless you a modern western bone density exam.

>

 

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

Are there any articles/studies showing similar results with

postmenopausal women here in the States where a more sedentary

lifesstyle and work type that is generally less weight bearing in

nature, may be a variable to consider?

 

If there's no available literature on American patients, I'm curious

about the demographics of the women who took the herbal Rx in China.

 

 

~Fernando

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Postmenopausal osteoporosis is one of the diseases I'm especially

> interested in. Over the last seven or eight years, I have translated

a

> dozen or more Chinese articles (maybe even 20) showing that

internally

> administered Chinese medicinals prescribed on the basis of pattern

> discrimination can increase bone density. These translations are

> included in Blue Poppy Institute's Gynecology Certification Program.

>

> Bob Flaws

>

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> > , " Alon Marcus " <

> >

> > > Even after doing this can you say that bone density will

> > change?

> > > Alon

> >

> > not unless you a modern western bone density exam.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " Alon Marcus " <

>

> > Even after doing this can you say that bone density will

> change?

> > Alon

>

> not unless you a modern western bone density exam.

>

 

 

I had a client who was on a bone density protocol from one of my

teachers (John Pirog) and who came to see me after John moved out of

town. She had been on the protocol for several months and I kept her

on it to see what the result would be; she stayed on it for about

eight months or so after I began seeing her. A few months after I

sent her the last batch I got a call from her MD who was very

interested in what I had been giving her since she had had

a " remarkable increase in bone density " for which he couldn't seem to

find any other explanation.

 

The basic formula was a combination of KPC granules: Ba Zhen Tang

75%, Han Lian Cao 12.5%, Nu Zhen Zi 12.5% (in other words, Ba Zhen

Jia Er Zhi Tang), dose was 2gm TID.

 

I called John about it and he couldn't remember where he had read

about this protocol, but he had initiated it because he had

discovered some research in which the Rx had been successful in

increasing bone density. I can't say it completely fit her pattern

but i didn't think it CI for her either (her tongue was scalloped

with a white coat only in the center and geographic/peeling and red

toward the rear for example, minor complaints of restlessness,

fatigue, dry cough, tinnitus, lightheadedness, palpitations, floaters

in the visual field).

 

Anyway, my .02

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

 

I don't know of any similar Chinese medicinal studies done in the U.S.

As for cohort descriptions, these are usually limited to age, number

of years postmenopause, and degree of osteoporosis before treatment.

Sometimes they also include vocation, but not always. You can

typically tell if the study was conducted on a city or rural

population by the work unit of the author(s), but that's about as far

as it goes in terms of demographics.

 

Bob

 

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> Bob,

>

> Are there any articles/studies showing similar results with

> postmenopausal women here in the States where a more sedentary

> lifesstyle and work type that is generally less weight bearing in

> nature, may be a variable to consider?

>

> If there's no available literature on American patients, I'm curious

> about the demographics of the women who took the herbal Rx in China.

>

>

> ~Fernando

>

> , " pemachophel2001 "

> <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > Postmenopausal osteoporosis is one of the diseases I'm especially

> > interested in. Over the last seven or eight years, I have

translated

> a

> > dozen or more Chinese articles (maybe even 20) showing that

> internally

> > administered Chinese medicinals prescribed on the basis of pattern

> > discrimination can increase bone density. These translations are

> > included in Blue Poppy Institute's Gynecology Certification

Program.

> >

> > Bob Flaws

> >

> > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> > > , " Alon Marcus " <

> > >

> > > > Even after doing this can you say that bone density will

> > > change?

> > > > Alon

> > >

> > > not unless you a modern western bone density exam.

> > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

Thanks for responding. I am curious as to what is the mechanism that

accounts for the increase in bone density according to pattern

discrimination. Do the herbal formulas cause an inhibition of

osteoclasts for one pattern and an increased activity of oteoblasts

for another?

 

If we think in lines of some form of yin xu, does that mean that

there's a relative hyperactivity of osteoclasts eroding bone cells?

Or in a case of yang xu, a decreased of osteoblast activity and less

generation of bone matrix? Or do I have this backwards? Thanks,

 

 

~Fernando

 

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Fernando,

>

> I don't know of any similar Chinese medicinal studies done in the

U.S.

> As for cohort descriptions, these are usually limited to age, number

> of years postmenopause, and degree of osteoporosis before treatment.

> Sometimes they also include vocation, but not always. You can

> typically tell if the study was conducted on a city or rural

> population by the work unit of the author(s), but that's about as

far

> as it goes in terms of demographics.

>

> Bob

>

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> > Bob,

> >

> > Are there any articles/studies showing similar results with

> > postmenopausal women here in the States where a more sedentary

> > lifesstyle and work type that is generally less weight bearing in

> > nature, may be a variable to consider?

> >

> > If there's no available literature on American patients, I'm

curious

> > about the demographics of the women who took the herbal Rx in

China.

> >

> >

> > ~Fernando

> >

> > , " pemachophel2001 "

> > <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > > Postmenopausal osteoporosis is one of the diseases I'm

especially

> > > interested in. Over the last seven or eight years, I have

> translated

> > a

> > > dozen or more Chinese articles (maybe even 20) showing that

> > internally

> > > administered Chinese medicinals prescribed on the basis of

pattern

> > > discrimination can increase bone density. These translations are

> > > included in Blue Poppy Institute's Gynecology Certification

> Program.

> > >

> > > Bob Flaws

> > >

> > > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> > > > , " Alon Marcus " <

> > > >

> > > > > Even after doing this can you say that bone density will

> > > > change?

> > > > > Alon

> > > >

> > > > not unless you a modern western bone density exam.

> > > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

osteoporosis

>>>A good study on osteoporosis should always evaluate fracture rates, not just bone density. Bone density studies can be misleading because the quality of bone mass may be inferior

Alon

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

 

The main disease mechanisms associated with postmenopausal

osteoporosis are a spleen-kidney yang vacuity, liver-kidney yin

vacuity, and blood stasis in that order. I personally do not try to

relate osteoblast and osteoclast activity to specific patterns. The

majority of Chinese medicinals shown to increase bone density are yang

supplements (which also nourish liver blood)and, therefore strengthen

the sinews, strengthen the bones, and strengthen the low back, such as

Du Zhong, Xu Duan, etc.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

A look at osteoporosis as it relates to Kidney-deficiency syndromes in TCM, and where bone density examination was performed by DEXA technique and the diagnosis of osteoporosis was made by finding 2.5 standard deviations below the bone density of healthy youths was done by Chen, Hsue, Chang, and Gee (1999). The study showed that is a marked association between Kidney-deficiency syndrome and postmenopausal osteoporosis. Patients with Kidney-Qi-and-Yin-deficiency syndrome were more likely to get osteoporosis than those with Kidney-Qi-deficiency syndrome or Kidney-Yin-deficiency syndrome alone.

Alon