Meridians & Electricity; separate but related existence

[Guest guest]

Dear Guy,

 

I think that we ( practitioners) have to agree that

meridians and Qi as well as electricity or more concretely bioelectricity

have two separate but related 'existence' .The " leading Western proponent of

acupuncture in St. Louie " is actually a proponent of electrotherapy and

not acupuncture as we do it. As you have mentioned his 'doings' involve

 

" experiments which show that certain analgesic

> effects are produced with electrical stimulation of various zones in the

> extremities without regard to exact point or meridian location. His

> experiments seem to indicate that frequency is far more important than point

> location. Based on this design, he has concluded that there are no meridians. "

 

That is why I do not think that he is in a position to proclaim the

existence of Qi and meridians. I also doubt that with his experiements, he

can proclaim the existence of electric current or 'direct current ' or DC

as Robert Becker calls it in his book The Body Electric (William Morrow and

Co, New York, 1985) . The 'electric ' nature of nerve conductivity is still

a current big debate in the discipline of Life Sciences.

 

Having said this, however, I have to point out that the 'existence' of

Qi and meridians have been mapped by numerous Chinese medicine practitioners

and scholars in and out of China . And this mapping also has its own

methodology, history and philosophy. But this type of mapping is quite

different from the " mapping of blood vessels and organs " . The mapping they

are doing in Harvard , based on your account, is actually 'showing' the

'exixtence of Qi and meridians on a biomedical diagnostic map. It is showing

the exitence of Qi and meridian on another 'mode of existence' i.e. on a PET

scan. But I am not against this method, if it helps 'validate' our existence

in this planet .

 

While having a separate existence, Qi and meridians as I pointed out earlier

have a 'relatedness' with electricity. We can actully say that the " teh chi "

or " needle feeling " is a " flow of electrons through the body " as a group of

'sensitized' scientists frtom the Vascular laboratory, Lemuel Shattuck

Hospital and Tufts University Schol of Medicine hypothesized in l977. Hence

we can say that both Qi meridian and bioelectricity or electrons for that

matter are not just " constructs " . Both have ontological existence.

 

Rey tiquia

Dept. of History and Philosophy of Science

The University of Melbourne

Parkville

Victoria

Australia

 

 

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>drgrporter

>

>Re: Existence of Meridians

>Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 2:56 AM

>

 

> Here in St. Louis, we are either honored or burdened with the presence of one

> of the " leading " Western proponents of acupuncture, who is a psychiatrist at

> one of the Universities here. This individual maintains that the existence of

> meridians is " Buddhist superstition. " I suppose that says enough about his

> particular familiarity with Chinese language and philosophy.

>

> He bases his conclusion on experiments which show that certain analgesic

> effects are produced with electrical stimulation of various zones in the

> extremities without regard to exact point or meridian location. His

> experiments seem to indicate that frequency is far more important than point

> location. Based on this design, he has concluded that there are no meridians.

>

> We enter into a tricky area when we talk about " existence. " In the early days

> of dissection, in Europe, it was pretty much accepted that whatever was able

> to be torn apart with the gentle probing fingers of the professor was just so

> much background matrix (fascia) and that the real structures of the body were

> the ones that one dissected out of the underlying or surrounding gelatinous

> mass.

>

> Thus, blood vessels and organs were mapped. And it took longer for scientists

> to discover capillaries, since they were so small and we needed to bring the

> expertise of the Dutch lens makers to Padua and Milan in order to look more

> closely at the human form.

>

> By the 1700s, we were pretty much steeped in Descartes' writings about the

> " ghost in the machine " and the body on the dissecting slab was the mechanism

> through which the soul was thought to work, by somehow inhabiting it.

>

> Experiments with electricity's effect on nerve and muscles gave us some

> inkling that the nervous system might somehow control the machine and provide

> for locomotion. And the rest, as they say, is history.

>

> Meridian theory and meridian mapping would have been more widely accepted if

> there could have been someone to one mapping with either blood vessels or

> with nerves. However, we know that is not the case. And in the West no one

> much cares that if you stimulate a particular point you get radiating

> sensation along a unique pathway (not associated with nerves or blood

> vessels) across a variety of subject. Too subjective for Science.

>

> So there are no vessels that one can dissect out in order to show someone,

> " here, this is a meridian. " However, recent explorations using PET scans and

> other very sensitive apparati that can measure small electrical or magnetic

> forces may indicate that there are pathways in the fascial tissue that are

> more electroconductive than other pathways. This might be a physical analog

> to the meridians.

>

> Some work that is now proceeding at Harvard, using functional PET scans and

> the services of certified acupuncturist from China. The preliminary findings

> show that when " teh chi (?) " or " needle feeling " (for those like myself who

> do not speak Chinese,) is attained, there are definite patterns of inhibition

> which take place in specific brain areas.

>

> Now, if one were to collect all of this data and try to put it into some sort

> of understandable classification system, one might come up with a meridian

> system. It's not out of the question, after all neurobiologists have drawn

> that strange little man all over the sensory cortex of the brain, and no one

> believes that he really lives there!

>

> Lastly, I think the idea of the existence of meridians can be likened to this

> analogy:

>

> No one can see electrons;

>

> No one needs to know much about electrons to watch TV.

>

> One would be considered an idiot to deny the existence of electrons.

>

> In fact, if I may add a fourth step to this, the mathematics and the

> experiments to " prove " that electrons " exist " is complicated. Those who do

> understand the math currently (not understands them as in " I took that in

> school once, I remember it made sense then " ) are among the elite of our

> population. And they would say that electrons, or positrons, or neutrinos, do

> not exist in the same sense that the chair you are sitting on exists. They

> are constructs and they are useful ones.

>

> I think that meridians are clearly useful constructs, even if the

> materialists among us are not quite satisfied with the density of their

> " existence. "

>

> Guy Porter

> DrGRPorter

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Guy,

Are you sure about this? I actually did study this in school. While it

is next to impossible to actually nail down an exact position of an

electron, they do exist. This brings you to the Heisenberg Uncertainty

Principle with which you can make a good guess as to where you will find

an electron at any given moment. I'm sure things have changed in the ten

years since I studied quantum chemistry but I am quite certain that

electrons still exist. An electron is matter and combined with the rest

of the elements of an atom combines in molecules to make up the chair

your derrière is sitting on. If the electron doesn't exist, neither does

the chair, nor your derrière for that matter.

 

Colleen

 

> In fact, if I may add a fourth step to this, the mathematics and the

> experiments to " prove " that electrons " exist " is complicated. Those

who do

> understand the math currently (not understands them as in " I took that

in

> school once, I remember it made sense then " ) are among the elite of

our

> population. And they would say that electrons, or positrons, or

neutrinos, do not exist in the same sense that the chair you are sitting

on exists. They

> are constructs and they are useful ones.

[Guest guest]

Guy,

I was referring to the scientists who would say that electrons don’t

exist, which I now understand is not what you are saying.

Could you elucidate which criteria you are referring to that are

different for measuring electrons? Mass, position, velocity are all used

to measure electrons and these are the same criteria that are used to

measure anything. It’s just that it couldn’t be calculated until

calculus and quantum mechanics came around.

 

If you could get your derriere to look smaller you’d be a millionaire!

 

Colleen

 

 

 

 

Dear Colleen:

 

I am not sure of the antecedent to " this " in your first sentence,

however I

was making the point that the criteria for the " existence " of electrons

has

to be different from the criteria for ordinary objects. And the criteria

for

the " existence " of Qi is different, as is the criteria for the

existence of

" The thought I have of Pegasus. " (The latter, by the way, is in quotes

since

it is a standard example used in philosophy classes in ontology.)

 

When you say that electrons exist, you have to ask yourself exactly what

you

are saying. You haven't seen one (of course) but you have read about

certain

measurements, experiments, etc., that all combine to give us the

construct

called " electron. "

 

I understand that actually my derrière is less than 1% actual matter and

99%

space. Is there some way to make it at least look smaller?

 

Guy Porter

 

DrGRPorter

 

 

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