Integrating Western With Chinese Medicine Diagnosis

[Guest guest]

August 21,2002 12:30 pm

Melbourne ,Australia

 

Dear Michael and List members,

 

Sorry for not getting back to you soon . I have given your question on

" integrating the results of western biomedical test(e.g. bone scans) into

the TCM diagnosis " a fair bit of thinking.

 

Your question is not an easy one to answer. It falls within the ambit

of a broad and long study into the intraction between biomedicine and TCM

which has its origins when western modern medicine started its engagement

with the TCM body of knowledge almost half a millenia ago. As you can see

there are continuing , complex , historical,cultural,political and

epistemological issues which up to now,in this era of postmodernity, we are

still attempting to untangle .

 

First of all, I think it will be helpful for us to see those western

biomedical diagnostic tests like the bone scans as 'tools' in the hands of

biomedical practitioners which they use to

 

³map the presences and absences of a vast range of things in our

unwell bodies. And they have a vast technology to help in this

mapping enterprise.This mapping is seen as the first step in

working towards putting the machine of the body back into good

working order.² [Tiquia R. (l996)Traditional A Guide

to its Practice.Chice Books. Sydney. Foreword p. vii]

 

Practitioners of this tradition of health care map the presence or absence

of certain entities in the patients¹ bodies. It seeks to mimic the presence

of viruses or bacteria or the absence of certain enzymes in the patients¹

body in its representation.In the case of the bone scan, it maps the body's

skeletal density . The mimicked body or mapped body is here and the practice

of medicine is over there.

 

As TCM practitoiners, we also have our own professional 'diagnostic tools'.

Observing the tongue, feeling the pulse, listening and inquring into the

patient's complaints or the Four Examination Techniques are some of them.

But unlike the biomedical practitioner, we do not do a mapping exercise . On

the basis of the clinical signs and symptoms we access through the Four

Examination Techniques , we picture , diagnose or differentiate the patterns

of imbalance and disharmony i.e.the clinical patterns or zheng hou.

 

Hence, in traditional Chinese medicine , the very practice of bian zheng lun

zhi grows out of the patients¹ body. Signs and symptoms express the

condition of the patients¹ body and the practitioners do not represent it .

Instead, they re-present it. A picture of Yin and Yang imbalance or

disharmony might emerge. From this picture, TCM practitioners work out the

Œdoing¹ of the the yao to be deployed in treating this imbalance. Hence in

TCM, the natural body is Œdone¹ in practices that are naturally part of it.

 

Going back to your question of how we can " integrate the results of western

biomedical tests (e.g. bone scans) into the TCM diagnosis . I suggest that

we see western biomedical test and TCM diagnostic techniques i.e. Four

Examination Techniques as both " tools " which can provide possibilities of

articulating between the two sets of practices which constitute them as

such. In this way , bone scans and the Four Examination Techniques while

assuming life within their respective localized medical practices at the

same time assume another life as 'sensitizing agents' that give biomedical

practitioners a way to understand the practice of TCM and vice-versa.

 

In conclusion, I like to point out it was the attempt to construct a

laboratory animnal model of Kidney yang Xu in l960 that signalled the birth

of the notion of " integrating Chinese and Western Medicines " of Zhong Xi Yi

Xiang Jie He . This eventually led to widescale 'scientization " of TCM in

Mainland China and eventually , the fragtmentation or our practice which we

are now trying to re-construct .

 

Best Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

Phd Candidate

Dept. of History and Philosophy of Science

The University of Melbourne

Parkville

Victoria

Australia

 

 

 

----------

> " mbuyze " <mbuyze

>

> Re: FW: Clinial Menopause Questions : Clinical

Evaluation of Menopause

>Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 12:25 PM

>

 

> Rey Tiquia:

>

> Thanks for your response. While I appreciate the offer to post the

> full cases, that was not my intent. I am simply looking to hear from

> my collegues if the return of menses is a common result of treatment

> in their clinical experience.

>

> In the case of bone decalcification, the woman is not a current

> patient. She merely told me she has shown decalcification in a bone

> scan and wonder if there was anything I could do for that. I did

> treat her for musculoskeletal complaints before (acupuncture only)

> and I don't recall anything remarkable about her kidneys.

>

> What I really want to know is how others are integrating the results

> of western biomedical tests (e.g. bone scans) into the TCM diagnosis.

>

> Michael

>

> , " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

>>

>>

>> ----------

>> " rey tiquia " <rey@a...>

>> Clinial Menopause Questions : Clinical Evaluation of

> Menopause

>> Sun, Aug 18, 2002, 2:37 PM

>>

>>

>> August 18,2002 2:32 pm

>> Melbourne Australia

>>

>> Dear Michael,

>>

>> From your own account of the clinical encounters you had with

> menopausal

>> women you seem to have succeeded in treating a number of menopausal

>> complaints using herbs which addressed the respective patient's

> individual

>> clinial patterns or zheng hou . However,instead of " directly

> verifying this

>> in any text that I (you) have " , i suggest that you should

> instead do a

>> clinical evaluation using the same parameters you used in working

> out the

>> clinical pattern or using your word the " potterns' of that

> patient. For a

>> start, you can write up a case study of one of the 'typical'

> patients you

>> have looked after and then post it to the list data base.

>>

>> As for the case of the post-menopausal patient who suffers from

>> decalsification, you have to do a clinical pattern differentiation

> by first

>> collecting all data from the execution of the Four Examination

> Techniques of

>> 1) observing (including observing the tongue) , 2) inquiring, 3)

> smelling

>> and listening 4) palpating (including pulse) and then 'sorting out'

> these

>> data using Zang-fu , Jing luo, etc. as templates to come out with a

>> diagnosis of 'kidney yin deficiency' . Once this is done you can

> work out a

>> formula or a Fang (herb, food, exercise, advise ) for this

> patient.Then

>> monitor the patients' response to your 'formulae' by using the Four

>> Examination Technique as a clinical evaluation tool. I refer to

> this process

>> as bian zheng ping zhi which translates into English as " evaluating

> the

>> treatment administered in accordance with the diagnosed clinical

> pattern " .

>> You may write up yourcase study for this patient and then you may

> post to

>> the list data base forothers to evaluate and learn from it.

>>

>> Regards,

>>

>> Rey Tiquia

>> Phd Candidate

>> Dept. of History and PHilosophy of Science

>> The University of Melbourne

>> Parkville

>> Victoria

>> Australia

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

 

>

> In conclusion, I like to point out it was the attempt to construct a

> laboratory animnal model of Kidney yang Xu in l960 that

signalled the birth

> of the notion of " integrating Chinese and Western Medicines "

 

I consider this an important and desirable advance in the study

of TCM. Such information is not detrimental to TCM, but

essential in creating a new paradigm. It only leads to

fragmentation if it is substituted for traditional concepts or

accepted as an " explanation " rather than a correlation.

Demonstrating that the paterns of TCM have physiological

correlates is an essential step in the validation of TCM as a

coherent system of logic. Despite much wider acceptance of the

efficacy of TCM by both american patients and doctors, there is

very widespread skepticism amongst both groups about the

validity of our conceptutal framework. Until we overcome this

hurdle, we will remain stalemated in our current limboland. We

have discussed this topic at length over the years. when we

move to our new server at the end of the month, it will be much

easier to search all past messages.

 

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> Demonstrating that the patterns of TCM have physiological

> correlates is an essential step in the validation of TCM as a

> coherent system of logic.

 

:

 

I think the language Kendall and others use goes much further than

simply looking for correlates and, consequently, has important

political/social implications for our future.

 

To validate TCM by WM would be like establishing the validity of

Judaism through its similarities and historical connection to

Christianity. The problems inherent in the desire to " validate " CM

are twofold. First, the original logic of CM is not available to or

translateable in physiological terms (the apples and oranges

dilemma) so it cannot be satisfactorily validated in this way; and,

second, the fact that we require a Western scientific validation for

CM at all can be appreciated only in anthropological terms because

we live in a Western culture and understand foreign concepts first

in familiar terms. But we don't necessarily want to explain CM as

simply another type of physiological medicine---it isn't.

 

This double-standard is partly politically motivated. Western

medicine itself has not yet been proven to be a coherent system of

logic, nor completely efficacious. I remember reading a statistic in

JAMA that said that less than 20% of what MDs do in their daily

practice has been double-blind studied.

 

While we may apply the scientific method to CM, the real validation

of any medical system lies in its clinical efficacy.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Well said Jim !

 

Rey Tiquia

 

----------

> " jramholz " <jramholz

>

> Re: Integrating Western With

Diagnosis

>Wed, Aug 21, 2002, 4:17 PM

>

 

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

>> Demonstrating that the patterns of TCM have physiological

>> correlates is an essential step in the validation of TCM as a

>> coherent system of logic.

>

>

:

>

> I think the language Kendall and others use goes much further than

> simply looking for correlates and, consequently, has important

> political/social implications for our future.

>

> To validate TCM by WM would be like establishing the validity of

> Judaism through its similarities and historical connection to

> Christianity. The problems inherent in the desire to " validate " CM

> are twofold. First, the original logic of CM is not available to or

> translateable in physiological terms (the apples and oranges

> dilemma) so it cannot be satisfactorily validated in this way; and,

> second, the fact that we require a Western scientific validation for

> CM at all can be appreciated only in anthropological terms because

> we live in a Western culture and understand foreign concepts first

> in familiar terms. But we don't necessarily want to explain CM as

> simply another type of physiological medicine---it isn't.

>

> This double-standard is partly politically motivated. Western

> medicine itself has not yet been proven to be a coherent system of

> logic, nor completely efficacious. I remember reading a statistic in

> JAMA that said that less than 20% of what MDs do in their daily

> practice has been double-blind studied.

>

> While we may apply the scientific method to CM, the real validation

> of any medical system lies in its clinical efficacy.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

 

> I consider this an important and desirable advance in the study

> of TCM. Such information is not detrimental to TCM, but

> essential in creating a new paradigm. It only leads to

> fragmentation if it is substituted for traditional concepts or

> accepted as an " explanation " rather than a correlation.

> Demonstrating that the paterns of TCM have physiological

> correlates is an essential step in the validation of TCM as a

> coherent system of logic.

 

This is the reason I asked on another thread on the physiological

correlates of osteoblast/oteoclast on loss/gain of bone density and

pattern discrimination. My treatment will be based on our diagnostic

methods, but, it doesn't hurt to have at least a basic understanding

of the a biomedical process triggered by the TCM Rx.

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

dear Rey, Jim and Tod and ...

 

First let my say that you all state these things more elegantly then I have.

 

 

However I think that Tod mention something that is important with regard to the topic in question namely "objective as in purpose"

 

Tod:

 

Despite much wider acceptance of the efficacy of TCM by both American patients and doctors, there is very widespread skepticism amongst both groups about the validity of our conceptutal framework. Until we overcome this hurdle, we will remain stalemated in our current limboland

 

Marco:

 

Thus here the objective is to "validate" for lay people (as with regard to Chinese medicine), in order for what?

 

Probably a wider acceptance of but for whom?

 

Patient?

Practitioner?

Chinese medicine?

Western medicine?

 

Private practice?

Public practice?

Both (ideally)

 

Of course one can say they are interrelated, however apart from my fail attempt to "visibilise" that:

 

term---concept---meaning----"knowledge"------Action are interrelated another factor that thus far affects research is:

 

By Whom and For Whom and with What Objective in mind?

 

Within this are the cultural bound Advantages/Disadvantages complex tangible but not touchable, albeit possibly changing yet again the impulse that Dong Yi - Oriental medicine or more specifically Zhong Yi - has on thus that a larger amount feels subjective/objective better that receive treatment, then a mere wishful thinking can account for.

 

The placebo effect by the way is beginning to be maped in the cerebral function, interesting as it is I suspect a change of term will be necessary at some stage to explain that something is happening in the brain as opposed to the "mind".

 

Later on 1000 years from now?

 

people will maybe do research on the lets say Ma Wang Dui Text and "discover" that most if not all Therapeutic agents (agents as in "a wider context") "somehow" makes the "placebo" part of the brain work better-easier-more-efficient.

 

Back to the topic, thus far I think from my current understanding it is fare to say that most work done on the "scientising", a misnomer in first place if science is recognised as parameters and indicators used to "understandresult", the objective where as follows:

 

Basically make Westerners (not just western professionals within a fascinating discipline of say Western medicine), but policy makers, public opinion at large (considering the political turmoil and the innocent victims of the cold war and the communist hunt and which hunt East West that followed), one strategy would have been to make something alien familiar.

 

Here it is important to rember that due inhuman brutality and short term gains and possible non contemplative minds at large majority have always by cohesion or by "own choice" lacking a fuller picture want to be Westerners.

 

Wiseman in a paper states something like:

 

it is important to remember that Taiwan FIRST did not adopt western medicine for its "superior" clinical efficacy...

 

It is not a direct quote but the bottom line was that other factor where at large a word that seams to also be taboo Invasion-Imperialism.

 

 

No doubt that in some aspect Western medicine has a clinical superiority then and the same goes the other way round. Something that still has not been tackled enough by research let alone when these medical systems are used as "Frankenstein's" monsters or rather only on Western Cosmovision Terms. Another fact of life namely, that life does not box it self into immutable compartments. Hence no studies-research (at least sufficiently in number and logistical approach) as far as I am aware of have been done when Chinese Cosmovision ---medical paradigm and Western cosmovision ----medical paradigm is being utilise on its own terms by the PRACTIONERS and for the PATIANt. This functional system would render or demand the patient to be more active in her/his journey for health, as indeed any pluralistic public health system would in the long run.

 

 

Hence the or at least a greater part of any one concern with Chinese medicine would be better of working towards understanding the gains and losses and utilising the gains and loss what ever they might be for the practice of medicine (used as its original denotive meaning namely a generic term and not as hijacked by unscrupulous people) and for the patient.

 

i.e. The claim that "scientising" Chinese medicine will make Chinese medicine more acceptable to get out of the Limbo state is only partially true when stated by thought full and knowledgeable people (Tod, in this case). But, why it is so difficult to see:

 

Term----Concept-----Meaning----"Knowledge"-----Action

 

Not in a rigid linear order of curse but with "no beginning and no end" the real arbitrator being the shadow of culture.

 

Hence to "prove" something to lay people will not change for a greater-more comprehensive and thus a more intelligible view of Chinese medicine and hence how it is utilised when it is on lay peoples terms.

 

A note, it is important to me that the intentional usage of lay here is not for me to be fastidious rather emphasis a point of term and context.

 

We know this because No Western country or non Asian country can accept the fact that Chinese medicine is a dependent based paradigm just like western medicine.

 

Take the interesting and at times hilarious notion of empirical:

 

I may be alone in hearing western doctors and other lay people happily claiming that Chinese medicine and any other non western cosmovision based medical paradigm being nothing more but empirical.(i.e. with regard to Chinese medicine less they have had real training to some extent with Chinese medicine and then do not use terms such as medical acupuncturist and empirical knowledge as an answer to all Chinese medical knowing). This term validates and invalidates at the same time. However the truth of such absurdity can be rectify within three-five minutes attention (even a bad lover can thus have no excuse:-)

 

If it was empirical the "existence" of circulation tracts---conduits---pathways---channels and vessels and collaterals would not be confused. The phenomenal entity would rather then be like arteries and veins that can be empirically detected as an ontological entity but not as an epistemological entity, hence the deferens between pulse and mai (mo) the closes aproximatation in English as far as I am aware is pulse.

 

All culture in the world would by know practice acumoxa and natural drug medication (to the level that Vietnam...) if it was an empirical science based only, Tui nai, Shiautso would be practice to the same extent as in Asian countries with out question if these particular therapeutic massage-manual modalities was only empirical knowledge.

 

Hence the cultural bound attitudes by lay people will not change by trying to please and appease them, this has been documented Hiener Frhuith "Chinese medicine in Crises (please correct the spelling that is done from poor memory, and my apologies to the person in question) is an example and the reference to Rey and Jim's letters for example.

 

The forces at play in Guatemala has been and still has the legacy of the cold war, albeit hope and believe it is changing otherwise I would not be here.

 

As a small diversion I have seen documents since 1979 ranting and raving about the "empirical" aspect of acupuncture (forget moxa and natural drug medication) how it should be used in rural health care. And today it is still to be "implemented" in a sustainable ways. Those that are aware of Bill Clintons apology for the USA invasion in 1954 and the arming of the Guatemalan army that sole purpose was (is) to eliminate those that might impulse a change for the better (at least as far as the majority goes), the beginning of death squads that still has no face albeit less active in Guatemala today for the moment then Brazil Colombia. Might say that it was the war and not ideological difficulties that render the hindrance of any good public health system that naturally would be pluralistic in nature.

 

They are right in a way In Uspantan Maya Kichee where my wife is from the then ten promotores de salud was all target by the army and killed they had had some training in "needling" (personal communications), her two uncles where left lifeless in a ditch and they had no contact with the armed resistance nor where the health promoters so the "logical" strategy was interrelated to the invasion in Vietnam.

 

However the mere fact that in the Urban aeries acumoxa was and is seen as an empirical "art" detected in such words as it must have something to it since it has such a long history, has render the present day situation of far far from SAR (research but more sophisticated i.e. East Asian medicine on its own terms).

 

I tried to offer my services to the URNG and got the response that acumoxa not important, then through personal communication have found out that the at least two branches of the armed Resistance had western doctors that implemented as "health" policy to employ "empirical" acupuncture.

 

It may seam as a diversion and a non related topic but what I am trying to convey is that research no matter what type has never been the real or at least not the "full" final arbitrator of acceptance of a medical system or not. Another example is the absurdity that the very same movements mention above where in many ways more keen on "needling" then say Maya medicine, it was a mess complicated by ideologies cold war absurdities and racism.

 

I got adopted so was lucky, but due to personal incompetence have not managed to forge any real contact with people or schools---institutes Guatemala as a source of clinical practice and a truly development program and not the style which Vandana Shiva explores inher works can and no doubt will one day take place.

 

 

This letter should be read as food for thought rather then statements of "facts", some of my best friends are western doctors have a head full of Westerncosmovision no intention to accuse or other unnecessary negative verbs intended to any one. I do not want to put words into any once mine rather the recent letter between Rey Tod and Jim brought about this letter.

 

Maybe more of a "existential" crises of what are our or rather mine obligations as someone whom purports to want to Practice Chinese medicine for the good of patients "to heal", and medical ethics, budistical, confunistical, Doaistical and the reality that does that needs Chinese medicine in Guatemala can not afford it.

 

Maybe some one could elaborate on the topic of ethics?

 

 

Marco Bergh

 

 

[Guest guest]

The Oct. 1 issue of the Blue Poppy On-line Chinese Medical Journal

will be containing several Chinese articles on combining patterns of

laboratory results with Chinese medical pattern discrimination. None

of these articles link a single lab result with a single pattern.

Rather, all link a constellation of multiple test results to a single

pattern.

 

Symptoms have a physiological basis.

 

Bob

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

>

> >

> > In conclusion, I like to point out it was the attempt to construct

a

> > laboratory animnal model of Kidney yang Xu in l960 that

> signalled the birth

> > of the notion of " integrating Chinese and Western Medicines "

>

> I consider this an important and desirable advance in the study

> of TCM. Such information is not detrimental to TCM, but

> essential in creating a new paradigm. It only leads to

> fragmentation if it is substituted for traditional concepts or

> accepted as an " explanation " rather than a correlation.

> Demonstrating that the paterns of TCM have physiological

> correlates is an essential step in the validation of TCM as a

> coherent system of logic. Despite much wider acceptance of the

> efficacy of TCM by both american patients and doctors, there is

> very widespread skepticism amongst both groups about the

> validity of our conceptutal framework. Until we overcome this

> hurdle, we will remain stalemated in our current limboland. We

> have discussed this topic at length over the years. when we

> move to our new server at the end of the month, it will be much

> easier to search all past messages.

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

 

> >

> > I think the language Kendall and others use goes much

further than

> > simply looking for correlates and, consequently, has

important

> > political/social implications for our future.

 

I was commenting on the importance of the animal models of

yang xu. I did not make this connection with Deke's work. I just

said I found his work intriguing. separate subject.

 

[Guest guest]

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

To validate TCM by WM would be like establishing the validity of

> > Judaism through its similarities and historical connection to

> > Christianity.

 

Jim

 

You clearly do not understand my point. You never have, as you

always have the same rebuttal which never has anything to do

with what I have written. We apparently have personal biases

that cannot be bridged.

 

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> You clearly do not understand my point. You never have, as you

> always have the same rebuttal which never has anything to do

> with what I have written. We apparently have personal biases

> that cannot be bridged.

 

:

 

Perhaps you're right. I thought I was addressing the tacit political

and intellectual implications of these positions. I grew up with

Derrida and deconstruction, and find reading between the lines and

the implications more interesting than the literal message---which,

for better or worse, is how I like to read the classics too.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

To validate TCM by WM would be like establishing the validity of Judaism through its similarities and historical connection to Christianity.

>>>That is where I loose the whole argument of knowing Chinese and culture. To me medicine, a part of spirituality, is a physical science that can be studied using the tools used to study physical phenomenon

Alon

[Guest guest]

I remember reading a statistic in JAMA that said that less than 20% of what MDs do in their daily practice has been double-blind studied. >>>That is correct. And there is now a huge movement within WM for evidence based medicine. I am going to speak in a osteopathic convention that is all about evidence based medicine, including alternative med

Alon

[Guest guest]

Furthermore, the whole research project of "integrating Chinese medicinewith Westen medicine" wasted millions of yuan of valuable resources andended up "bereft of any breakthroughs whether in the realm of theoreticalresearch nor in application research"

>>>To me the main importance is within trying to designs studies that one can truly draw conclusions from. WM is therefore needed

alon

[Guest guest]

jramholz wrote:

 

> I remember reading a statistic in

> JAMA that said that less than 20% of what MDs do in their daily

> practice has been double-blind studied.

 

I'm wading through the JAMA site and I'm unable to find what you're

talking about. Can you think of any search criteria I can use to find

this article?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Al:

 

I don't remember exactly when. It just stuck in my mind. Alon seems

familiar with the statistic, too. Perhaps he knows the source.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> I'm wading through the JAMA site and I'm unable to find what you're

> talking about. Can you think of any search criteria I can use to

find this article?

[Guest guest]

I don't remember exactly when. It just stuck in my mind. Alon seems familiar with the statistic, too. Perhaps he knows the source.>>>These numbers have been batted around. You may want to check www.clincalevidence.org

Alon

[Guest guest]

I just discussed this subject this last week in New Mexico with Stuart

Kauffman, an evolutionary biologist and author of " At Home in the

Universe " , and with Dave Weininger, a chemist with a strong interest in

Chinese medicine (who has been collaborating with Ken Rose, Bob Felt and

myself on various projects). There is interest in the subject of

Chinese medicine out there in the scientific community, but little

knowledge on how to access it or from whom to do so. While I was in

Santa Fe, Dave Weininger and I produced a DVD-ROM on the topic on how

to explain Chinese medicine to a Western audience, and I will try to

make this available at some point to this list. Keep posted.

 

 

On Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 11:26 PM, 1 wrote:

 

>

> I consider this an important and desirable advance in the study

> of TCM.  Such information is not detrimental to TCM, but

> essential in creating a new paradigm.  It only leads to

> fragmentation if it is substituted for traditional concepts or

> accepted as an " explanation " rather than a correlation. 

> Demonstrating that the paterns of TCM have physiological

> correlates is an essential step in the validation of TCM as a

> coherent system of logic.  Despite much wider acceptance of the

> efficacy of TCM by both american patients and doctors, there is

> very widespread skepticism amongst both groups about the

> validity of our conceptutal framework.  Until we overcome this

> hurdle, we will remain stalemated in our current limboland.  We

> have discussed this topic at length over the years.  when we

> move to our new server at the end of the month, it will be much

> easier to search all past messages.

>

 

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

dear Zev,

 

I would be very interested to see the DVD-Rom .

 

Regards,

 

Rey tiquia

 

----------

> " " <zrosenbe

>

>Re: Re: Integrating Western With

Diagnosis

>Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 11:42 AM

>

 

> I just discussed this subject this last week in New Mexico with Stuart

> Kauffman, an evolutionary biologist and author of " At Home in the

> Universe " , and with Dave Weininger, a chemist with a strong interest in

> Chinese medicine (who has been collaborating with Ken Rose, Bob Felt and

> myself on various projects). There is interest in the subject of Chinese

> medicine out there in the scientific community, but little knowledge on how

> to access it or from whom to do so. While I was in Santa Fe, Dave

> Weininger and I produced a DVD-ROM on the topic on how to explain Chinese

> medicine to a Western audience, and I will try to make this available at

> some point to this list. Keep posted.

>

>

> On Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 11:26 PM, 1 wrote:

>

>

> I consider this an important and desirable advance in the study

> of TCM.  Such information is not detrimental to TCM, but

> essential in creating a new paradigm.  It only leads to

> fragmentation if it is substituted for traditional concepts or

> accepted as an " explanation " rather than a correlation. 

> Demonstrating that the paterns of TCM have physiological

> correlates is an essential step in the validation of TCM as a

> coherent system of logic.  Despite much wider acceptance of the

> efficacy of TCM by both american patients and doctors, there is

> very widespread skepticism amongst both groups about the

> validity of our conceptutal framework.  Until we overcome this

> hurdle, we will remain stalemated in our current limboland.  We

> have discussed this topic at length over the years.  when we

> move to our new server at the end of the month, it will be much

> easier to search all past messages.

>

 

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Rey,

 

I'll keep you posted,

 

Z'ev

On Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 09:07 PM, rey tiquia wrote:

 

>

> dear Zev,

>

> I would be very interested to see the DVD-Rom .

>

> Regards,

>

> Rey tiquia

>

> ----------

> > " " <zrosenbe

> >

> >Re: Re: Integrating Western With Chinese

> Medicine

> Diagnosis

> >Mon, Aug 26, 2002, 11:42 AM

> >

>

> > I just discussed this subject this last week in New Mexico with Stuart

> > Kauffman, an evolutionary biologist and author of " At Home in the

> > Universe " , and with Dave Weininger, a chemist with a strong interest

> in

> > Chinese medicine (who has been collaborating with Ken Rose, Bob Felt

> and

> > myself on various projects).  There is interest in the subject of

> Chinese

> > medicine out there in the scientific community, but little knowledge

> on how

> > to access it or from whom to do so.  While I was in Santa Fe, Dave

> > Weininger and I produced a DVD-ROM on  the topic on how to explain

> Chinese

> > medicine to a Western audience,  and I will try to make this

> available at

> > some point to this list.  Keep posted.

> >

> >

> > On Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 11:26 PM, 1 wrote:

> >

> >

> > I consider this an important and desirable advance in the study

> > of TCM.  Such information is not detrimental to TCM, but

> > essential in creating a new paradigm.  It only leads to

> > fragmentation if it is substituted for traditional concepts or

> > accepted as an " explanation " rather than a correlation. 

> > Demonstrating that the paterns of TCM have physiological

> > correlates is an essential step in the validation of TCM as a

> > coherent system of logic.  Despite much wider acceptance of the

> > efficacy of TCM by both american patients and doctors, there is

> > very widespread skepticism amongst both groups about the

> > validity of our conceptutal framework.  Until we overcome this

> > hurdle, we will remain stalemated in our current limboland.  We

> > have discussed this topic at length over the years.  when we

> > move to our new server at the end of the month, it will be much

> > easier to search all past messages.

> >

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare

> > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> > specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

> professional

> > services, including board approved online continuing education.

> >

> >

> >

> >