Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Stephen, Just looked in Hong-yen Hsu's Oriental Materia Medica: A Concise Guide under Du Zhong. He does not say it supplements yin and yang. He says it supplements the liver and kidneys. Same for Xu Duan. I have also just looked in half a dozen Chinese language materia medica, and none say that either Du Zhong or Xu Duan supplement yin. In general, when a yang-supplementing medicinal is described as supplementing the liver and kidneys, what is meant is liver blood and kidney yang. Hsu does not use the word " yin " in either description. I think this is a very important technical distinction or fine point that needs to be preserved. It has definite clinical implications. The liver and sinews correspond as do the kidneys and bones, and it is blood which specifically nourishes the sinews. Again we come back to the importance of the Chinese language. While Hong-yen Hsu's materia medica contains more entries than does B & G and is, valuable, therefore, for that reason, I have to say that the standard of translation is not very good. Bob , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > ...therefore strengthen the sinews, strengthen the bones, and strengthen the > low back, such as > Du Zhong, Xu Duan, etc. > > > Also Note: Xu duan and Du zhong are said to have both yin nourishing and > yang tonifying effects* in addition to having specific affinity for > nourishing the bones. > > * (Hong Yen Hsu's Materia Medica Ref: Pg550 (3)) > > > Stephen > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Bob, Thanks offering your perspective. I would suggest you look at the specific reference that I mentioned at the bottom of pg 550 next to the number (3) in Hsu's materia medica. There Hsu lists five yang tonifying herbs that also have " yin nourishing effects " . His words. I would be interested to know what his source was if in fact he had one other than personal experience. I would also be interested to know if others have personal experience opinions on the yin nourishing effects of any of the yang tonifying materials. Stephen pemachophel2001 [pemachophel2001] Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:09 AM Re: Clinial Menopause Questions Stephen, Just looked in Hong-yen Hsu's Oriental Materia Medica: A Concise Guide under Du Zhong. He does not say it supplements yin and yang. He says it supplements the liver and kidneys. Same for Xu Duan. I have also just looked in half a dozen Chinese language materia medica, and none say that either Du Zhong or Xu Duan supplement yin. In general, when a yang-supplementing medicinal is described as supplementing the liver and kidneys, what is meant is liver blood and kidney yang. Hsu does not use the word " yin " in either description. I think this is a very important technical distinction or fine point that needs to be preserved. It has definite clinical implications. The liver and sinews correspond as do the kidneys and bones, and it is blood which specifically nourishes the sinews. Again we come back to the importance of the Chinese language. While Hong-yen Hsu's materia medica contains more entries than does B & G and is, valuable, therefore, for that reason, I have to say that the standard of translation is not very good. Bob , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > ...therefore strengthen the sinews, strengthen the bones, and strengthen the > low back, such as > Du Zhong, Xu Duan, etc. > > > Also Note: Xu duan and Du zhong are said to have both yin nourishing and > yang tonifying effects* in addition to having specific affinity for > nourishing the bones. > > * (Hong Yen Hsu's Materia Medica Ref: Pg550 (3)) > > > Stephen > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Stephen, You're right, Hsu does use the words " yin-nourishing. " Presumably he was translating the Chinese yang3 yin1. The word yang3 is used both with blood (xue4) and yin1 (and sometimes with stomach when implying nourishment of stomach fluids or yin1). This then raises the issue of what is yin. In terms of Chinese medicine and medicinals, righteous yin is a combination of blood, fluids, and essence. It is interesting that Hsu used the word yang3 and not bu3, to supplement, or zi1, to enrich, the other two words that are commonly used when referring to supplementation of yin. For instance, when speaking of yin-supplementing medicinals (bu3 yin1 yao4), we more commonly use the term zi1 yin1. When we nourish the liver (yang3 gan1), it means to nourish liver blood with meds like Dang Gui and Bai Shao. What I'm getting at here is that Hsu's choice of the word yang3, to nouish, was not accidental but has CM clinical implications, and the words yang3 and bu3 are, in this case, not interchangable. Bob , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > Bob, Thanks offering your perspective. I would suggest you look at the > specific reference that I mentioned at the bottom of pg 550 next to the > number (3) in Hsu's materia medica. There Hsu lists five yang tonifying > herbs that also have " yin nourishing effects " . His words. I would be > interested to know what his source was if in fact he had one other than > personal experience. I would also be interested to know if others have > personal experience opinions on the yin nourishing effects of any of the > yang tonifying materials. > > Stephen > > > > pemachophel2001 [pemachophel2001] > Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:09 AM > > Re: Clinial Menopause Questions > > > Stephen, > > Just looked in Hong-yen Hsu's Oriental Materia Medica: A Concise Guide > under Du Zhong. He does not say it supplements yin and yang. He says > it supplements the liver and kidneys. Same for Xu Duan. I have also > just looked in half a dozen Chinese language materia medica, and none > say that either Du Zhong or Xu Duan supplement yin. In general, when a > yang-supplementing medicinal is described as supplementing the liver > and kidneys, what is meant is liver blood and kidney yang. Hsu does > not use the word " yin " in either description. I think this is a very > important technical distinction or fine point that needs to be > preserved. It has definite clinical implications. The liver and sinews > correspond as do the kidneys and bones, and it is blood which > specifically nourishes the sinews. Again we come back to the > importance of the Chinese language. > > While Hong-yen Hsu's materia medica contains more entries than does B > & G and is, valuable, therefore, for that reason, I have to say that > the standard of translation is not very good. > > Bob > > , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > ...therefore strengthen the sinews, strengthen the bones, and > strengthen the > > low back, such as > > Du Zhong, Xu Duan, etc. > > > > > > Also Note: Xu duan and Du zhong are said to have both yin > nourishing and > > yang tonifying effects* in addition to having specific affinity for > > nourishing the bones. > > > > * (Hong Yen Hsu's Materia Medica Ref: Pg550 (3)) > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare > > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics > specializing > > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional > services, > > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Again we come back to the importance of the Chinese language. >>>Not language but interpretation Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 pemachophel2001 wrote: > When we nourish the liver (yang3 gan1), it means to > nourish liver blood with meds like Dang Gui and Bai Shao. What I'm > getting at here is that Hsu's choice of the word yang3, to nouish, was > not accidental but has CM clinical implications, and the words yang3 > and bu3 are, in this case, not interchangable. Do you find that there are herbs specific to yang3 yin, bu3 yin, and zi1 yin1? For instance, there are a variety of herbs that supplement Jing, but they seem to work via different mechanisms. There's Shu Di Huang, Gou Qi Zi, He Shou Wu that tonify Jing as well as Blood. Then there are the Yang tonics such as Lu Rong, Zi He Che, and Ge Jie. Is there a different verb used to describe the additive qualities of these different categories of herbs even though they perform the same function of creating more Jing? Are the Blood tonics described as performing the function of " bu3 jing " while the Yang tonics are described " zi1 jing " ? Does the verb that is used can help us to better understand the unique mechanism of these Jing tonics? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Bob, I followed your thought process, and it makes sense to presume Hsu was translating yang3 yin1. Yet your presumption of the translation terms choices, i.e. yang3 yin1 for yin-nourishing, and his care in making these choices, is foiled by what he represents when discussing Yin Tonic herbs on pages 577 and 588. There he states that Yin nourishing (tzu-yin) is synonymous with kidney-nourishing...whereas yin-growing (yu yin) means to supplement and nourish liver yin. So it doesn't appear that he was suggesting yin nourishing would exclude the concept of bu3 yin1. To me the real issue is to what extent and in what way do the zhuang gen bu yang medicinals he lists (rou cong rong, suo yang, xu duan, du zhong, and Chong cao*) actually affect yin. In the case of using bu yang medicinals for the prevention or treatment of osteoporosis, the required course of treatment may necessitate long term administration, in which case even someone with weak yang could often benefit from more balanced yang tonifying materials that also have yin nourishing qualities. Whether du zhong and xu duan actually " nourish yin " to any great extent, so that this benefit would actually occur in long term treatment, is the question that I am interested in answering. *BTW the name chong cao is now often presumed to refer to cordyceps militaris rather than cordyceps sinensis (xia cao), although the complete name for militaris is yong chong cao. But I'm guessing Hsu was referring to xia cao. Stephen Stephen, You're right, Hsu does use the words " yin-nourishing. " Presumably he was translating the Chinese yang3 yin1. The word yang3 is used both with blood (xue4) and yin1 (and sometimes with stomach when implying nourishment of stomach fluids or yin1). This then raises the issue of what is yin. In terms of Chinese medicine and medicinals, righteous yin is a combination of blood, fluids, and essence. It is interesting that Hsu used the word yang3 and not bu3, to supplement, or zi1, to enrich, the other two words that are commonly used when referring to supplementation of yin. For instance, when speaking of yin-supplementing medicinals (bu3 yin1 yao4), we more commonly use the term zi1 yin1. When we nourish the liver (yang3 gan1), it means to nourish liver blood with meds like Dang Gui and Bai Shao. What I'm getting at here is that Hsu's choice of the word yang3, to nouish, was not accidental but has CM clinical implications, and the words yang3 and bu3 are, in this case, not interchangable. Bob , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > Bob, Thanks offering your perspective. I would suggest you look at the > specific reference that I mentioned at the bottom of pg 550 next to the > number (3) in Hsu's materia medica. There Hsu lists five yang tonifying > herbs that also have " yin nourishing effects " . His words. I would be > interested to know what his source was if in fact he had one other than > personal experience. I would also be interested to know if others have > personal experience opinions on the yin nourishing effects of any of the > yang tonifying materials. > > Stephen > > > > pemachophel2001 [pemachophel2001] > Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:09 AM > > Re: Clinial Menopause Questions > > > Stephen, > > Just looked in Hong-yen Hsu's Oriental Materia Medica: A Concise Guide > under Du Zhong. He does not say it supplements yin and yang. He says > it supplements the liver and kidneys. Same for Xu Duan. I have also > just looked in half a dozen Chinese language materia medica, and none > say that either Du Zhong or Xu Duan supplement yin. In general, when a > yang-supplementing medicinal is described as supplementing the liver > and kidneys, what is meant is liver blood and kidney yang. Hsu does > not use the word " yin " in either description. I think this is a very > important technical distinction or fine point that needs to be > preserved. It has definite clinical implications. The liver and sinews > correspond as do the kidneys and bones, and it is blood which > specifically nourishes the sinews. Again we come back to the > importance of the Chinese language. > > While Hong-yen Hsu's materia medica contains more entries than does B > & G and is, valuable, therefore, for that reason, I have to say that > the standard of translation is not very good. > > Bob > > , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > ...therefore strengthen the sinews, strengthen the bones, and > strengthen the > > low back, such as > > Du Zhong, Xu Duan, etc. > > > > > > Also Note: Xu duan and Du zhong are said to have both yin > nourishing and > > yang tonifying effects* in addition to having specific affinity for > > nourishing the bones. > > > > * (Hong Yen Hsu's Materia Medica Ref: Pg550 (3)) > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare > > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics > specializing > > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional > services, > > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 Al, Bu yin, to supplement yin, is the most generic term. It is the term used in most ben cao and fang ji xue texts as chapter heads. Yang yin and zi yin can be used interchangably when talking about specifically bu yin meds. However, as soon as one says yang gan, nourish the liver, we are talking about nourishing liver blood. So, in the case of a liver-kidney dual vacuity, if one says nourish the liver and enrich the kidneys, one knows this is a liver blood-kidney yang vacuity. On the other hand, if one says nourish the liver and invigorate the kidneys, one knows this is a liver blood-kidney yang vacuity. What I was trying to get at with Stephen was that, when Hsu said that some yang supplements nourish yin, he was not necessarily saying yin as in bu yin meds but was also implying blood as in blood-supplementing meds. Of course, some meds, most notably Di Huang, supplement both. But most yin supplements do not, e.g. Xi Yang Shen, Sha Shen, Shi Hu, etc. In B & G, you can tell the yin supplements which nourish the blood if B & G use the word " nourish " and mention the liver and kidneys. As for essence, the words that are used when talking about supplementing the essence are mostly to " replenish " (tian), " foster (yu) " and sometimes to " boost (yi). " Sometimes the word " nourish (yang) " is also used, but I don't ever remember seeing the word " enrich (zi) " used with essence. Since there is no category of essence-supplementing meds in any ben cao or fang ji xue text of which I am aware, I'm not sure what you are talking about. (I just checked six Chinese ben cao and three English materia medica.) Essence is nothing other than a combination of yin and yang which are nothing other than qi (yang) and blood and fluids (yin). Here, I'm citing Yan De-xin. Bob > > Do you find that there are herbs specific to yang3 yin, bu3 yin, and zi1 yin1? > > For instance, there are a variety of herbs that supplement Jing, but > they seem to work via different mechanisms. There's Shu Di Huang, Gou Qi > Zi, He Shou Wu that tonify Jing as well as Blood. Then there are the > Yang tonics such as Lu Rong, Zi He Che, and Ge Jie. > > Is there a different verb used to describe the additive qualities of > these different categories of herbs even though they perform the same > function of creating more Jing? Are the Blood tonics described as > performing the function of " bu3 jing " while the Yang tonics are > described " zi1 jing " ? > > Does the verb that is used can help us to better understand the unique > mechanism of these Jing tonics? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone@B...> > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 Stephen, Perhaps one of the problems is that I don't really accept the notion of liver yin as a separate concept. As Hsu says on page 577, liver blood vacuity results in liver yin vacuity and the symptoms are the same as liver blood vacuity. If that's so, then why talk about liver yin vacuity? How can there be too different patterns if their signs and symptoms are the same? In that case, liver blood vacuity and liver yin vacuity are synonymous, two different names for essentially one and the same thing. As for the issue of long-term yang-supplementation, certainly some yang-supplementing meds are safer long-term than others. For instance, Xian Mao and Xian Ling Pi are usually contraindicated long-term. However, both do nourish the liver as well as invigorate yang, same as Du Zhong, Xu Duan, Rou Cong Rong, and Suo Yang. The difference seems to be the presence of " toxins (du). " Perhaps the really important distinction is between those meds which warm yang (wen yang) and those which invigorate yang (zhuang yang). Meds which warm yang, e.g. Fu Zi and Rou Gui, are not from the yang-supplementing category but rather from the interior-warming category of meds. Bob > To me the real issue is to what extent and in what way do the zhuang gen bu > yang medicinals he lists (rou cong rong, suo yang, xu duan, du zhong, and > Chong cao*) actually affect yin. In the case of using bu yang medicinals > for the prevention or treatment of osteoporosis, the required course of > treatment may necessitate long term administration, in which case even > someone with weak yang could often benefit from more balanced yang tonifying > materials that also have yin nourishing qualities. Whether du zhong and xu > duan actually " nourish yin " to any great extent, so that this benefit would > actually occur in long term treatment, is the question that I am interested > in answering. > > *BTW the name chong cao is now often presumed to refer to cordyceps > militaris rather than cordyceps sinensis (xia cao), although the complete > name for militaris is yong chong cao. But I'm guessing Hsu was referring to > xia cao. > > Stephen > > > Stephen, > > You're right, Hsu does use the words " yin-nourishing. " Presumably he > was translating the Chinese yang3 yin1. The word yang3 is used both > with blood (xue4) and yin1 (and sometimes with stomach when implying > nourishment of stomach fluids or yin1). This then raises the issue of > what is yin. In terms of Chinese medicine and medicinals, righteous > yin is a combination of blood, fluids, and essence. It is interesting > that Hsu used the word yang3 and not bu3, to supplement, or zi1, to > enrich, the other two words that are commonly used when referring to > supplementation of yin. For instance, when speaking of > yin-supplementing medicinals (bu3 yin1 yao4), we more commonly use the > term zi1 yin1. When we nourish the liver (yang3 gan1), it means to > nourish liver blood with meds like Dang Gui and Bai Shao. What I'm > getting at here is that Hsu's choice of the word yang3, to nouish, was > not accidental but has CM clinical implications, and the words yang3 > and bu3 are, in this case, not interchangable. > > Bob > > , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > > > Bob, Thanks offering your perspective. I would suggest you look at > the > > specific reference that I mentioned at the bottom of pg 550 next to > the > > number (3) in Hsu's materia medica. There Hsu lists five yang > tonifying > > herbs that also have " yin nourishing effects " . His words. I would > be > > interested to know what his source was if in fact he had one other > than > > personal experience. I would also be interested to know if others > have > > personal experience opinions on the yin nourishing effects of any of > the > > yang tonifying materials. > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > pemachophel2001 [pemachophel2001] > > Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:09 AM > > > > Re: Clinial Menopause Questions > > > > > > Stephen, > > > > Just looked in Hong-yen Hsu's Oriental Materia Medica: A Concise > Guide > > under Du Zhong. He does not say it supplements yin and yang. He says > > it supplements the liver and kidneys. Same for Xu Duan. I have also > > just looked in half a dozen Chinese language materia medica, and > none > > say that either Du Zhong or Xu Duan supplement yin. In general, when > a > > yang-supplementing medicinal is described as supplementing the liver > > and kidneys, what is meant is liver blood and kidney yang. Hsu does > > not use the word " yin " in either description. I think this is a very > > important technical distinction or fine point that needs to be > > preserved. It has definite clinical implications. The liver and > sinews > > correspond as do the kidneys and bones, and it is blood which > > specifically nourishes the sinews. Again we come back to the > > importance of the Chinese language. > > > > While Hong-yen Hsu's materia medica contains more entries than does > B > > & G and is, valuable, therefore, for that reason, I have to say that > > the standard of translation is not very good. > > > > Bob > > > > , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > > ...therefore strengthen the sinews, strengthen the bones, and > > strengthen the > > > low back, such as > > > Du Zhong, Xu Duan, etc. > > > > > > > > > Also Note: Xu duan and Du zhong are said to have both yin > > nourishing and > > > yang tonifying effects* in addition to having specific affinity > for > > > nourishing the bones. > > > > > > * (Hong Yen Hsu's Materia Medica Ref: Pg550 (3)) > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > > healthcare > > > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics > > specializing > > > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional > > services, > > > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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