8-principles, Hep C & clinical patterns

[Guest guest]

August 27, 2002 Tuesday 10:20 pm

Melbourne, Australia

 

 

Dear Jim,

 

I think that the 8-principles or Ba Gang or Ba Yao in Chinese, as a TCM

diagnostic tool is a very dynamic system. It does not only describe the

'living system'. It is the living system. The living body is a collectivity

of interacting dynamism of yin/ yang, hot / cold, excess/vacuity and

interiority / exteriority. As clinicians, we use this dynamic tool as a

template to construct or diagnose the clinical pattern of a contingent

patient. The Ming Dynasty medical scholar Zhang Jie Bin in his complete

volume,Jing Yue Quan Shu (l637 AD reprinted by the People's Health

Publishing House, Beijing in l991 , pp. 3-26) provided a good exemplar on

how to deploy this template in differentiating clinical patterns or zheng

hou of numerous diseases.

 

This then leads me to the question posed by Doug who is searching for a

'Chinese' solution to a 'Western' disease such as Hep C. With the deployment

of the TCM conceptual templates such as the 8-principles , Zangfu , Jingluo

and Wei Qi Ying Xue, signs and symptoms ofa contingent Hep C patient in the

West or in China, can be assembled and diagnosed into an approapriate

clinical pattern . And as I pointed out in an earlier posting, after the

appropriate treatment is administered to the Hep C patient , the Four

Examination techniques or Si zhen which was originally used to gather data

to diagnose the clinical pattern can be used subsequently to evaluate the

efficacy of the treatment. Bian zheng lun zhi or " proposing treatment

principles in accordance with a a diagnosed clincal pattern becomes bian

zheng ping zhi i.e. " evaluating the treatment administered in accordance

with the diagnosed clinical pattern. "

 

There you have it Doug, you now have a " western test for Chinese medicine " .

 

 

Rey Tiquia

Phd Candidate

Dept. of History and Philosophy of Science

The University of Melbourne

Parkville

Victoria

Australia

 

 

 

 

 

> " jramholz " <jramholz

>

> Re: Complexity and

>Tue, Aug 27, 2002, 2:44 PM

>

 

> , <yulong@m...> wrote:

>> But I do it reluctantly.

>

>

> Ken:

>

> Why relunctantly?

>

> My sense is that Complexity Theory can help " fill in and explain "

> many details and reasons for CM. Physical, biological,

> psychological, and social processes and structures are forms of

> energy, made of the same stuff, and distinguished only in their

> organization. For example, why are there 5 Phases---no more no less?

> One answer is that the pentagram (with interior lines that connect

> the vertexes) is the simplest 4-dimensional tetrahedron. It is the

> simplest geometrical model that includes time. Most of the

> diagnostic models that are used in TCM, like 8-Principles, are not

> dynamic so they cannot adequately describe living systems; they are

> simply homeostatic. For example, the Suwen (chapters 66 and

> following) talks at length about the dynamic role of time in 5-

> Phases in the environment, health, and disease process. In the Dong

> Han pulses system, we use 5-Phases to show both linear and non-

> linear interactions.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----------

" rey tiquia " <rey

 

8-principles, Hep C & clinical patterns

Tue, Aug 27, 2002, 10:31 PM

 

 

August 27, 2002 Tuesday 10:20 pm

Melbourne, Australia

 

 

Dear Jim,

 

I think that the 8-principles or Ba Gang or Ba Yao in Chinese, as a TCM

diagnostic tool is a very dynamic system. It does not only describe the

'living system'. It is the living system. The living body is a collectivity

of interacting dynamism of yin/ yang, hot / cold, excess/vacuity and

interiority / exteriority. As clinicians, we use this dynamic tool as a

template to construct or diagnose the clinical pattern of a contingent

patient. The Ming Dynasty medical scholar Zhang Jie Bin in his complete

volume,Jing Yue Quan Shu (l637 AD reprinted by the People's Health

Publishing House, Beijing in l991 , pp. 3-26) provided a good exemplar on

how to deploy this template in differentiating clinical patterns or zheng

hou of numerous diseases.

 

This then leads me to the question posed by Doug who is searching for a

'Chinese' solution to a 'Western' disease such as Hep C. With the deployment

of the TCM conceptual templates such as the 8-principles , Zangfu , Jingluo

and Wei Qi Ying Xue, signs and symptoms ofa contingent Hep C patient in the

West or in China, can be assembled and diagnosed into an approapriate

clinical pattern . And as I pointed out in an earlier posting, after the

appropriate treatment is administered to the Hep C patient , the Four

Examination techniques or Si zhen which was originally used to gather data

to diagnose the clinical pattern can be used subsequently to evaluate the

efficacy of the treatment. Bian zheng lun zhi or " proposing treatment

principles in accordance with a a diagnosed clincal pattern becomes bian

zheng ping zhi i.e. " evaluating the treatment administered in accordance

with the diagnosed clinical pattern. "

 

There you have it Doug, you now have a " western test for Chinese medicine " .

 

 

Rey Tiquia

Phd Candidate

Dept. of History and Philosophy of Science

The University of Melbourne

Parkville

Victoria

Australia

 

 

 

 

 

> " jramholz " <jramholz

>

> Re: Complexity and

>Tue, Aug 27, 2002, 2:44 PM

>

 

> , <yulong@m...> wrote:

>> But I do it reluctantly.

>

>

> Ken:

>

> Why relunctantly?

>

> My sense is that Complexity Theory can help " fill in and explain "

> many details and reasons for CM. Physical, biological,

> psychological, and social processes and structures are forms of

> energy, made of the same stuff, and distinguished only in their

> organization. For example, why are there 5 Phases---no more no less?

> One answer is that the pentagram (with interior lines that connect

> the vertexes) is the simplest 4-dimensional tetrahedron. It is the

> simplest geometrical model that includes time. Most of the

> diagnostic models that are used in TCM, like 8-Principles, are not

> dynamic so they cannot adequately describe living systems; they are

> simply homeostatic. For example, the Suwen (chapters 66 and

> following) talks at length about the dynamic role of time in 5-

> Phases in the environment, health, and disease process. In the Dong

> Han pulses system, we use 5-Phases to show both linear and non-

> linear interactions.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

> I think that the 8-principles or Ba Gang or Ba Yao in Chinese, as

a TCM diagnostic tool is a very dynamic system. It does not only

describe the 'living system'. It is the living system. The living

body is a collectivity of interacting dynamism of yin/ yang, hot /

cold, excess/vacuity and interiority / exteriority.

 

 

Rey:

 

But not dynamic in the sense of complexity theory. The body itself

is a nonlinear and complex system. It has many elements and

subsystems, can change unpredictably in time, and is far from

equilibrium. I think you're glossing the properties of the body for

the attributes of the model. 8-Principles is a descriptive model of

about physical location and homeostatic equilibrium (it has very

few " elements " which are intended to be brought into equilibrium---

in complexity theory, equilibrium is death), and its behavior is

linear (too much yang back to not too yang); therefore intentionally

most diagnosis of disease are reduced to the same small set of

rubrics. Part of Volker Schied's book goes into how the Chinese have

attempted to expand this model under the pressure of scientifiic

encroachment into their field.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

> The following quote from a TCM researcher from China in l985

(which I translated into English as part of my Masters minor thesis)

pictures the pressure bearing upon TCM practice by this " scientific

encroachment " .

 

 

Rey:

 

Your translation work sounds interesting. Can you post a few

articles to the file section?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

Were you able to access the one I posted on the Chinese Language ?

 

 

No. What format is it in?

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

> It is in Appleworks 5.03. However, if I can't put it on the CHA

file (I have

> to re-type it in my current imac) , I might just have to send you

the minor

> thesis through postal mail.

>

 

Rey,

 

I think there is a way to re-save a document as RTF (Rich Text

Format) in Appleworks. I have an older version (Clarisworks) and in

the File pull-down menu under " Save As " you should be able to re-save

as RTF. I say this because there are others of us besides Jim who

might like to read your files.

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

Jim r. wrote: For example, why are there 5 Phases---no more no

less?

> > One answer is that the pentagram (with interior lines that

connect

> > the vertexes) is the simplest 4-dimensional tetrahedron. It is

the

> > simplest geometrical model that includes time.

 

Jim

 

I realize there is another irreconcilable bias on our parts that

cannot be overcome by argument. You believe the five phases

represent some kind of law of nature. I have never seen any

substantial evidence (nor had any experience nor observed any

practitioner to support the idea) that this template is any more

than an occasionally useful set of relationships - primarily a

teaching and organizational tool, nothing more, nothing less. If

the five phases have the import you assign them it should be

easy to design experiments that either demonstrate or disprove

the predictive power of this model. It is totally inadequate to

predict herbal properties, IMO. Because you have noted that

model includes time, it must be able to predict future events with

some accuracy. I understand that the predictability will have to

based upon complexity math, not algebra, yet I remain quite

skeptical. when that time comes, I will eat humble pie. till then, I

am content to perceive the five phases as a minor contribution to

the science of TCM.

 

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> I realize there is another irreconcilable bias on our parts that

> cannot be overcome by argument.

:

 

Undoubtedly, you are correct. I prefer to work with acupuncture

primarily, and use herbs secondarily. I think you said you work

primarily with herbs. According to essays in Elisabeth Hsu's book,

Innovation In , there was a time that herbs were

formulated by 5-Phases. We still try to look at herbalism that way.

 

It's interesting that the schools which use the classics use the

ones for herbology---Shan Han Lun and Wen Bing. Most of my training

was done drawing on the Suwen, Nan Jing, and Mai Jing; and diagnosis

done primarily with pulse (again, another art lost to TCM). Perhaps

herbology dominates most public and private discussions---not only

in this forum---is because of the familiarity and acceptability of

pharmaceuticals in this culture; and TCM acupuncture is basic and

unsophisticated. While acupuncture dominated early on in US schools,

the tide seems to be reversing.

 

I simply hope to help renew an interest in 5-Phases and that

practitioners and students don't think that the Worsley style is the

only representation of 5-Phases there is available. Perhaps, one

day, CM will be better integrated in the US.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

It [5-Phases] is totally inadequate to predict herbal properties,

IMO.

 

 

:

 

This raises an interesting issue. If taste (5-Phases) and channel

induction (6-Qi) are not adequate to predict or, at least, help

explain an herb's function and behavior, how can it be explained?

Offhand, I can only think that the only other explanation is " active

chemical constituent(s), " for which an herb or formula is simply the

deliver system. Wouldn't that consequently render the herbal part of

TCM superfluous too---now that science has taken away meridians,

points, and qi---and better relegate herbs to the authority of

Western medicine?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

> Y. (1985) " Research on Objectification in the Work of TCM

Research' in Thinking and Methology in Integrated TCM and WSM

Research Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Yanjiu Silu yu Fang Fa, Shanghai

Science and Technology Publishing House, Shanghai , p 39].

> >>>>>I think this is a very important piece writing that we should

conceder carefully when talking about tradition

 

 

Alon:

 

Do you have a link or source for it?

 

 

Jim Ramholz