FW: 8-principles, Hep C & clinical patterns

[Guest guest]

Dear Jim,

 

The body as a living system is indeed complex. Hence there are many ways of

reading it. One can see it in terms of numerous abstract representational

ways such as the 'complexity theory'. Biomedicine reads it in all sorts of

ways. It can also be read in a non-representational or embodied ways as in

the way of the bian zheng lun zhi of which the 8-principles is used as a

major template.

 

I have not read Voker's book. We met as participants of a Plural Medicine

conference in Southampton , England about four years ago . As for the

" scientific encroachment " into the field of TCM in recent centuries (which I

have looked at in my research into the interactions between TCM and

biomedicine in the past half a millenium), I would agree entirely that

Western science indeed wreaked havoc on the practice and practitioners of

TCM in China at the turn of the century. This culminated to the point where

the Kuomintang Government intrducing a resolution before the legislature

to abolish the practice of TCM in l929. The scientization of TCM continued

under the Communist regime under the guise of " integrating TCM with

biomedicine' . All of these had an impact on the practice of TCM including

the deployment of the 'model' 8-principoles(which I mentioned in the last

posting was first systematized by Zhang Jie Bin in the mid 17th century).

 

Zhang Jie bing (1563-1640) who originally hails from the southwest provice

of Sichcuan moved to Shao xing prefecture in what is now known as province

of Zhe Jiang where he worked in his youth as a director of the Royal Guard

.. The 14 chapters JIng Yue Quan Shu was written later in his life as a

summation of his rich clinical 'lin zheng' experience.

 

The following quote from a TCM researcher from China in l985 (which I

translated into English as part of my Masters minor thesis) pictures the

pressure bearing upon TCM practice by this " scientific encroachment " .

 

" In the course of its protracted development, TCM like all other

sciences also paid great attention to fixing values and standards of

quantity, quality and localization. For example the use of standards of

length, capacity and weigth(du, liang, heng) in writing and prescribing

herbal formulae; the use of ;finger unit for body measurement'(tong shen

cun) in locating acupuncture points and channels; the use of correlations

between respiration and pulse rate to fix a rapid or slow pulse etc.

Standards for categorizing different comprehensive clinical patterns i.e.

Patterns of Six Division. Eight Principal patterns< Patterns of Acupuncture

Channels; Patterns of Four Stages etc. through the Four Examination

Techniques.

 

" These standards played an enhancing role in the academic development of

TCM. However. due to the restrictions imposed by the level of science during

those times, these standards of quantitiy,quality and localization included

the subjective (zhu guan) and perceptive (zhi guan) elements on the part

of the TCM practitioner. They (the standards) were cast on a very wide scale

which made them less accurate objectively and quantitavely. These made it

difficult to do accurate standardization which in turn affected the further

heighthening of the development of TCM. The use of modern scientific methods

(including modern Western scientific medicine methods WSM) to conduct

research on TCM concepts like the Four Examination Technniques, Eight

Principal Patterns (8-principles), Patterns of Internal Organ System,

Acupuncture Channel, Qi and Blood, Therapeutic Principle, Chinese Herbal

medicine , herbal formulae etc. involves the use of an objective

quantitative, qualitative, and localized observation index. This involves

the use of concrete quantity, images etc. to describe and record phenomena

which will then cast TCM in a more definitive and clearer form. " [Chen W.

Y. (1985) " Research on Objectification in the Work of TCM Research' in

Thinking and Methology in Integrated TCM and WSM Research Zhong Xi Yi Jie

He Yanjiu Silu yu Fang Fa, Shanghai Science and Technology Publishing House,

Shanghai , p 39].

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

Phd Candidate

Dept. of History and Philosophy of Science

The University of Melbourne

Parkville

Victoria

Australia

 

----------

> " jramholz " <jramholz

>

> Re: FW: 8-principles, Hep C & clinical patterns

>Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 1:42 AM

>

 

> , " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

>> I think that the 8-principles or Ba Gang or Ba Yao in Chinese, as

> a TCM diagnostic tool is a very dynamic system. It does not only

> describe the 'living system'. It is the living system. The living

> body is a collectivity of interacting dynamism of yin/ yang, hot /

> cold, excess/vacuity and interiority / exteriority.

>

>

> Rey:

>

> But not dynamic in the sense of complexity theory. The body itself

> is a nonlinear and complex system. It has many elements and

> subsystems, can change unpredictably in time, and is far from

> equilibrium. I think you're glossing the properties of the body for

> the attributes of the model. 8-Principles is a descriptive model of

> about physical location and homeostatic equilibrium (it has very

> few " elements " which are intended to be brought into equilibrium---

> in complexity theory, equilibrium is death), and its behavior is

> linear (too much yang back to not too yang); therefore intentionally

> most diagnosis of disease are reduced to the same small set of

> rubrics. Part of Volker Schied's book goes into how the Chinese have

> attempted to expand this model under the pressure of scientifiic

> encroachment into their field.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Jim,

 

I will try posting some of my MSC minor thesis translations onto the CHA

file. Were you able to access the one I posted on the Chinese Language ?

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

----------

> " jramholz " <jramholz

>

> Re: FW: 8-principles, Hep C & clinical patterns

>Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 1:27 PM

>

 

> , " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

>> The following quote from a TCM researcher from China in l985

> (which I translated into English as part of my Masters minor thesis)

> pictures the pressure bearing upon TCM practice by this " scientific

> encroachment " .

>

>

> Rey:

>

> Your translation work sounds interesting. Can you post a few

> articles to the file section?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is in Appleworks 5.03. However, if I can't put it on the CHA file (I have

to re-type it in my current imac) , I might just have to send you the minor

thesis through postal mail.

 

Rey Tiquia

 

 

----------

> " jramholz " <jramholz

>

> Re: FW: 8-principles, Hep C & clinical patterns

>Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 2:22 PM

>

 

> , " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

> Were you able to access the one I posted on the Chinese Language ?

>

>

> No. What format is it in?

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Rey and Jim and Douglas interesting conversation...

 

 

Rey:

 

Dear Jim,I will try posting some of my MSC minor thesis translations onto the CHAfile. Were you able to access the one I posted on the Chinese Language ?Marco:

 

I hope you can post the Chinese language in different format because have to no avail tried to access it...

 

Why not published also something in a journal CAOM journal of Chinese medicine Guatemalan Journal of Chinese medicine, hmm, the last one is yet to condense and form. Still it would be great although I am yet to I think a lot of people that for what ever reason are not d and or not members of the CHA list would also benefit from the topic discussed and from your writings.

 

Jim, have you published in any journal?

 

Your biography as in linage would be interesting for further practitioners and historians in the pluralistic sense to Chinese medicine, and although I can not claim to understand what you all talk about to either of your levels, I can make a distinction between personal interpretations and personal understanding (most of the time...).

 

my shorten contribution (had written a letter that was going along the usual line of trying to explicate the Guatemalan health system and its unhealthy relation to health...)

 

(western disease abstractation to represent a concrete phenomena)

Hepatitis C

Liver inflammation (had written "why" such arcane terms are still being promoted, it is politics okay?)

 

"aetiology - cause" (had written about cultural recognition of same and or different phenomena)

East-West

 

(Chinese dis-ease abstractation to represent a concrete phenomena)

intercostal pain?

Others please

 

Patterns identification

Since it is non static it would be useless to argue for or pro...

damp heat

blood vacuity

Qi and/or blood stagnation

A integrated mixture between them and of course others not mention

 

Maybe five phases analysis on a "global terrain" i.e. constitutional approach, Korean and others...

Shang Han lun - on cold damage "approach"

Warm Disease "approach" Wen Bing

 

Ding Han system (what would a translation of Dong Han system be?) has it as an distinct identity the pulse as a main feature and presumably this at times makes the treatment "different" from others rivers of Oriental medicine?

 

Kanpo in a pluralistically sense...

 

 

 

Stems and branches (something that I would love to understand more, sorry for the non sterile term) both with regard to acumoxa and natural drug treatment modality and life at large.

 

I Ching and medicine Which I still do not grasp nor understand, it is often stated that it has paramount importance in medicine. Les I am mistaking Zhang Jin Yue stated (something like):

 

To understand medicine one needs to study the I Jing (anything less is "superficial", i.e. bad practice?)

To understand I Jing one needs to use/understand medicine...

 

Hence they seam to have a profound and interactive maybe even complimentary in once aim to understand yi -medicine and hence life at large micro-macro cosmos.

 

In Knowing Practice The Clinical Encounter of , Judith Farquiar:

 

Picture page 141

 

Dr. Li Mingzhong (above), director of a hospital of Chinese medicine in a Shandong county town, posing with part of his library of medical books. Dr. Li specializes in a form of Chinese medical practice that uses the analytical systems of the book of Changes as a major resource, 1990.)

 

Does any one know about this person Li Mingzhong?

Does he still work there or retire or moved ...?

Has anyone seen any of his or other well trained people's writings on the book of changes and medicine?

How small/big would a hospital in a Shandong county town be?

What patient demographics would they see?

How can we make a hospital of Chinese medicine in Guatemala?(sorry:-)

 

Ken, this topic on a sincere and academical-clinical-life at large level would be a great topic for say ACOM (I think).

 

Does anyone know anything about Judith Farquhar, where has see published more papers or rather how to get hold of her writings (and e-mail?) Could "we" not entice her to write for any of the above mention journals or post something on CHA web site?

 

Back to what I wanted to "say", all this aspect will surly give rise to other questions and phenonomical entities and hence clinical implications. Less I am mistaking (which is not uncommon) not many studies have braked down the "though-internal scheme-cognitive process" of the practitioner to detect and hence analyse how this both affect clinical decisions making and clinical out come, in simplified terms:

 

Liver inflammation - anti inflammatory natural drugs, thus only using a "internal scheme from the western cosmovision) (or reduce yang fire loci, supplement yin fire loci?) or both?

 

The results then needs to be weight up against other studies that take more aspects in to account:

 

Dong Han plus the above

 

and so forth...

 

Which would mean that the aims and objectives is to both create sufficient amount of recorded/written information and its effect on the treatment outcome(s). This then would begin to accumulate "enough" information to begin to do analytically approach to the information from various angels (which they tem self needs to be expose).

 

Thus one could compare and contrast, and this in term would actually explain why double blind placebo studies yields results different from term and terminology related studies (which in my view would either by intention or default take into account the "shadow of culture and cosmovisiones EAST-WEST)

 

Hence one would get chunks of information that when put on transparent paper may or may not fill in the "questions and answers", at least one would create a multi-dimensional model two:

 

Approach --------- Outcome

 

Ken, have you had a chance of forwarding my polite but blunt message to SAR and any feedback?

 

Marco Bergh

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

If the five phases were a 'minor contribution' to CM, it wouldn't be

so interwoven in the works such as Nan Jing or Li Dong-yuan's writings.

 

We've discussed this before, but Stephen Birch wrote an interesting

mathematical study of the five phases as an appendix to Dr. Yoshio

Manaka's 'Chasing the Dragon's Tail'.

 

 

On Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 08:30 AM, 1 wrote:

 

> Jim

>

> I realize there is another irreconcilable bias on our parts that

> cannot be overcome by argument.  You believe the five phases

> represent some kind of law of nature.  I have never seen any

> substantial evidence (nor had any experience nor observed any

> practitioner to support the idea) that this template is any more

> than an occasionally useful set of relationships - primarily a

> teaching and organizational tool, nothing more, nothing less.  If

> the five phases have the import you assign them it should be

> easy to design experiments that either demonstrate or disprove

> the predictive power of this model.  It is totally inadequate to

> predict herbal properties, IMO.  Because you have noted that

> model includes time, it must be able to predict future events with

> some accuracy.  I understand that the predictability will have to

> based upon complexity math, not algebra, yet I remain quite

> skeptical.  when that time comes, I will eat humble pie.  till then, I

> am content to perceive the five phases as a minor contribution to

> the science of TCM.

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Robert,

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Rey Tiquia

 

----------

> " kampo36 " <kampo36

>

> Re: FW: 8-principles, Hep C & clinical patterns

>Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 11:07 PM

>

 

> , " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

>> It is in Appleworks 5.03. However, if I can't put it on the CHA

> file (I have

>> to re-type it in my current imac) , I might just have to send you

> the minor

>> thesis through postal mail.

>>

>

> Rey,

>

> I think there is a way to re-save a document as RTF (Rich Text

> Format) in Appleworks. I have an older version (Clarisworks) and in

> the File pull-down menu under " Save As " you should be able to re-save

> as RTF. I say this because there are others of us besides Jim who

> might like to read your files.

>

> robert hayden

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

These standards played an enhancing role in the academic development ofTCM. However. due to the restrictions imposed by the level of science duringthose times, these standards of quantitiy,quality and localization includedthe subjective (zhu guan) and perceptive (zhi guan) elements on the partof the TCM practitioner. They (the standards) were cast on a very wide scalewhich made them less accurate objectively and quantitavely. These made itdifficult to do accurate standardization which in turn affected the furtherheighthening of the development of TCM. The use of modern scientific methods(including modern Western scientific medicine methods WSM) to conductresearch on TCM concepts like the Four Examination Technniques, EightPrincipal Patterns (8-principles), Patterns of Internal Organ System,Acupuncture Channel, Qi and Blood, Therapeutic Principle, Chinese Herbalmedicine , herbal formulae etc. involves the use of an objectivequantitative, qualitative, and localized observation index. This involvesthe use of concrete quantity, images etc. to describe and record phenomenawhich will then cast TCM in a more definitive and clearer form." [Chen W.Y. (1985) " Research on Objectification in the Work of TCM Research' inThinking and Methology in Integrated TCM and WSM Research Zhong Xi Yi JieHe Yanjiu Silu yu Fang Fa, Shanghai Science and Technology Publishing House,Shanghai , p 39].>>>>>I think this is a very important piece writing that we should conceder carefully when talking about tradition

Alon

[Guest guest]

Do you have a link or source for it

>>>This was out of posting in the list

Alon