Digest Number 1107

[Guest guest]

The problem is, is that when your benchmarks get better, great, but if

they don't, then your treatments are " failures " . So who wants to promise

you can lower numbers when your patient continues to work 50 hours a week?

 

There is a lot of debate even among the mainstream about the

significance of the viral load for predicting amount of liver damage. I

make the analogy of, if you want to know how many fish are in the sea,

you go 5 miles out in a boat, drop a gallon bucket, count the fish, and

then multiply by the number of gallons in the ocean. You may get 10 fish

one day and one fish the next. Which one is correct? This is especially

of concern in Hep C where the virus is extremely small (even in viral

terms) and well hidden in its protein shell.

 

ALT numbers can vary from day to day as well and even those in the

so-called normal range tend to have numbers at the high end of it where

some damage can occur. The only tests that are meaningful are those done

month after month and year after year.

 

And yes, only 5% or so of the chronic Hep C people will get

significant/fatal damage. I was surprised today when I saw a woman in

her 70'swho just got off interferon. At the rate of probable damage, why

disrupt her life for a year?

 

Even within the TCM community, some claim Hep C is a Shao Yang problem,

others heat in the blood, others dampness and everyone has an arguement

against the other.

 

Oh well, I guess that's why I like dealing with the disease... pretty

interesting.

Doug

 

 

> " jramholz " <jramholz

> Re: Digest Number 1105

>

> ,

> I explain that there is no Western test for , that

> is, for the well-being of a patient. (Sporatic ALT and viral tests

> fluctuate too much to be reliable benchmarks in my view.)

>

> Doug:

>

> Wouldn't regular Western tests demonstrate the effectiveness of your

> protocol? You can observe changes in the liver pulse to guide your

> treatment strategy---Hep C influence and damage will show as

> increased heat and dampness leading to greater stagnation. I

> regularly treat some Hep C patients who have gotten biopsied years

> later and found insignificant liver change.

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

> z

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 11:07 PM, wrote:

 

 

>

> Even within the TCM community, some claim Hep C is a Shao Yang problem,

> others heat in the blood, others dampness and everyone has an arguement

> against the other.

 

This sounds to me like whoever is saying this is not diagnosing or

presenting a comprehensive picture of the pattern diagnosis. All of

these statements will be partial in a complex condition like that which

accompanies the hepatitis C virus. Oversimplificiation will miss the

boat completely.

 

There will be multi-patterns in such cases, and the diagnosis will

change according to the stage of the disease. Early stages, if

diagnosed, will usually involve a latent qi warm disease pattern.

Later on, as more organic damage is witnessed, several visceral-bowel

systems will be impacted.

 

In the present, post-industrial milieu of disease, one needs to have

the tools of Warm Disease, SHL, multi-pattern zang-fu, Li-Zhu theory

and channel theory to treat such conditions, choosing according to

stage of disease and complexity. Otherwise, confusion results.

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

,

wrote:

 

> There is a lot of debate even among the mainstream about the

> significance of the viral load for predicting amount of liver

damage.

 

ture, but there is a definitive way to determine liver damage --

biopsy. so the results can be tracked " objectively " . In addition,

while sporadic enzyme and viral titer tests are not that accurate,

if one could do daily tests for many months, then study the

fluctuations, a pattern of change would emerge. western

science indded has the power to study CM, but one must ask the

right questions and do the right tests.

 

todd

[Guest guest]

Dear Zev,

 

 

I also agree, it is lucky for me that everyone else seam to say what I at times attempt to say only more elegantly and sophisticated then I can manage.

 

However:

 

Li-Zhu theory what is it, I mean can you suggest where one can find more info...?

 

 

 

 

-

 

Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:56 AM

Re: Digest Number 1107

On Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 11:07 PM, wrote:

Even within the TCM community, some claim Hep C is a Shao Yang problem,others heat in the blood, others dampness and everyone has an arguementagainst the other.This sounds to me like whoever is saying this is not diagnosing or presenting a comprehensive picture of the pattern diagnosis. All of these statements will be partial in a complex condition like that which accompanies the hepatitis C virus. Oversimplificiation will miss the boat completely.There will be multi-patterns in such cases, and the diagnosis will change according to the stage of the disease. Early stages, if diagnosed, will usually involve a latent qi warm disease pattern. Later on, as more organic damage is witnessed, several visceral-bowel systems will be impacted. In the present, post-industrial milieu of disease, one needs to have the tools of Warm Disease, SHL, multi-pattern zang-fu, Li-Zhu theory and channel theory to treat such conditions, choosing according to stage of disease and complexity. Otherwise, confusion results.

[Guest guest]

I fully agree with Z'ev's observation. Translation between Hep C and

pattern diagnosis in a clinical situation requires a more engaged

systemic/localized approach .

 

Rey Tiquia

 

----------

> " " <zrosenbe

>

>Re: Digest Number 1107

>Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 12:56 AM

>

 

>

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 11:07 PM, wrote:

>

>

>

> Even within the TCM community, some claim Hep C is a Shao Yang problem,

> others heat in the blood, others dampness and everyone has an arguement

> against the other.

>

> This sounds to me like whoever is saying this is not diagnosing or

> presenting a comprehensive picture of the pattern diagnosis. All of these

> statements will be partial in a complex condition like that which

> accompanies the hepatitis C virus. Oversimplificiation will miss the boat

> completely.

>

> There will be multi-patterns in such cases, and the diagnosis will change

> according to the stage of the disease. Early stages, if diagnosed, will

> usually involve a latent qi warm disease pattern. Later on, as more

> organic damage is witnessed, several visceral-bowel systems will be impacted.

>

> In the present, post-industrial milieu of disease, one needs to have the

> tools of Warm Disease, SHL, multi-pattern zang-fu, Li-Zhu theory and

> channel theory to treat such conditions, choosing according to stage of

> disease and complexity. Otherwise, confusion results.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Li-Zhu theory is the combined work of Li Dong-yuan/Spleen-Stomach

Theory, and Zhu Dan-xi/Nourish Yin Theory. Blue Poppy Press has

translated " Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach " by Li Dong-yuan, and

two books by Zhu Dan-xi. I highly recommend them to you.

 

 

On Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 04:55 PM, Marco wrote:

 

> Dear Zev,

>  

>  

> I also agree, it is lucky for me that everyone else seam to say what I

> at times attempt to say only more elegantly and sophisticated then I

> can manage.

>  

> However:

>  

> Li-Zhu theory what is it, I mean can you suggest where one can find

> more info...?

>  

>  

>  

[Guest guest]

Blue Poppy Press has translated "Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach" by Li Dong-yuan, and two books by Zhu Dan-xi. I highly recommend them to you.>>>I find the translation quite clumsy and difficult to read

Alon

[Guest guest]

Dear Zev,

 

Thank you...

 

So Li-Zhu is allusion to:

 

Spleen-Stomach Theory approach

Nourish Yin Theory approach

 

in various degrees and forms, using the first or last name (?) of the main proponents of the above approaches, hence suggesting anything and everything they have written on Chinese medicine or The Art of Benevolence. (as I seam to recall that someone mention that yi - medicine was also referred to as such specially before late qing earia, Why?)

 

I have two books by blue poppy originally written by Zhu Dan Xi, but not any from Li DongYuan. However, have Master Hua's Classic of The Central Viscera and it proposed that this book have influence both above masters.

 

Presumably then by reading and studying this book one may "obtain" background information to begin to approach the following works...?

 

Which brings up a question.

 

I have Warm disease theory by paradigm press but not on cold damage (paradigm press), can one start studying Warm Disease Theory or would it rendered one bias, or has the sequence lesser importance these days, and did the introduction and familiarisations of written works in pre qing times have a didactical implication/meaning?

 

In other works, although there are many books and sources yet to be transcribed into the English language does anyone have a suggestion of which books to "first" approach, for didactical purposes?

 

Marco

 

 

 

 

-

 

Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:06 PM

Re: Digest Number 1107

Li-Zhu theory is the combined work of Li Dong-yuan/Spleen-Stomach Theory, and Zhu Dan-xi/Nourish Yin Theory. Blue Poppy Press has translated "Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach" by Li Dong-yuan, and two books by Zhu Dan-xi. I highly recommend them to you.On Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 04:55 PM, Marco wrote:

Dear Zev, I also agree, it is lucky for me that everyone else seam to say what I at times attempt to say only more elegantly and sophisticated then I can manage. However: Li-Zhu theory what is it, I mean can you suggest where one can find more info...?

[Guest guest]

> Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> Blue Poppy Press has translated " Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach "

> by Li Dong-yuan, and two books by Zhu Dan-xi. I highly recommend them

> to you.

> >>>I find the translation quite clumsy and difficult to read

> Alon

 

I read this too and didn't get anything out of it but the use of Qiang

Hou Sheng Shi Tang which I now use for wind-damp bi with exterior wind-cold.

 

Rather than sit here and criticize a book that isn't making anybody

rich, I would like to suggest some sort of CEU or on-line thingy that

could help to understand this book. My practice is all about poop and I

would very much like to incorporate the info in this text, I just don't

understand its usage, that's all. Lot's of information, but no way to

organize it into a clinically beneficial application for me.

 

-al.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Bob Flaws in an earlier post already expressed his interest in

retranslating the text. Remember, 12 years ago is a long time in this

field. . . .the same text translated now would probably be easier to

read. What I do is check the Blue Poppy text against the Chinese

original (as best I can).

 

 

 

 

On Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 08:37 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Blue Poppy Press has translated " Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach "

> by Li Dong-yuan, and two books by Zhu Dan-xi. I highly recommend them

> to you.

> >>>I find the translation quite clumsy and difficult to read

> Alon

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Al,

There are several articles that Bob Flaws has translated on the Blue

Poppy website that would be valuable to you to give you some practical

application of Dong-yuan's work. Also, both Todd and I have written

articles on spleen-stomach theory that are available. Finally, the

introduction to Bob Flaw's text, " The Treatment of Modern Western

Medical Diseases with " has a good overview in the

introduction.

 

 

On Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 11:54 AM, Al Stone wrote:

 

> > Alon Marcus wrote:

> >

> > Blue Poppy Press has translated " Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach "

> > by Li Dong-yuan, and two books by Zhu Dan-xi. I highly recommend them

> > to you.

> > >>>I find the translation quite clumsy and difficult to read

> > Alon

>

> I read this too and didn't get anything out of it but the use of Qiang

> Hou Sheng Shi Tang which I now use for wind-damp bi with exterior

> wind-cold.

>

> Rather than sit here and criticize a book that isn't making anybody

> rich, I would like to suggest some sort of CEU or on-line thingy that

> could help to understand this book.  My practice is all about poop and

> I

> would very much like to incorporate the info in this text, I just don't

> understand its usage, that's all.  Lot's of information, but no way to

> organize it into a clinically beneficial application for me.

>

> -al.

>

> --

> Al Stone L.Ac.

> <AlStone

> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rather than sit here and criticize a book that isn't making anybodyrich, I would like to suggest some sort of CEU or on-line thingy thatcould help to understand this book. My practice is all about poop and Iwould very much like to incorporate the info in this text, I just don'tunderstand its usage, that's all. Lot's of information, but no way toorganize it into a clinically beneficial application for me.>>>That would be great

alon

[Guest guest]

Finally, the introduction to Bob Flaw's text, "The Treatment of Modern Western Medical Diseases with " has a good overview in the introduction

>>>I think these are some of Chip's ideas (and interpretations) and are not nessuseraly main stream, but I may be mistaken. The blue poppy Heart & Essence of Dan-xi's is a little better than SP ST

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <

alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

> >>>I think these are some of Chip's ideas (and interpretations)

and are not nessuseraly main stream,

 

It is important to distinguish between ideas that are not

mainstream and those that are invented. Chip and Bob can

ground their interpretations of Li dong Yuan in a long line of

commentaries. that these commentaries were never the core of

TCM can perhaps be explained by demographics and

epidemiology. the argument goes that the ideas of li dong yuan

are particularly well suited to explaining and treating complex

modern illnesses. As has been correctly pointed out,

commentaries on the shang han lun and wen bing classics far

exceed those on the pi wei lun. However, despite our modern

fascination with the use of these more ancient concepts to

understand chronic illness, the prevalence of the SHL and wen

bing in ancient times was largely due to their usefulness in

treating acute disorders.

 

Before the modern era, acute infectious illnesses dominated the

the doctor's day in every country in the world. and they were by

far the leading cause of death. so it is no surprise that the

treatment of wai shang (external damage) was the

preoccupation of many generations of chinese physicians, well

into the communist era. Li dong yuan focused on nei shang

(internal damage). It is no surprise that his ideas were less

practical for most physicians. However, court physicians who

treated the aristocracy (or communist party bosses) were no

doubt faced with patients who were sedentary eaters of fatty,

overly flavored foods, with many concubines, perhaps smoking

and drinking, etc. this very small group of elite would exhibit the

same diseases of the modern couch potato.

 

today, nei shang dominates the practice of american TCM docs.

thus, the ideas of li dong yuan have risen in importance. the fact

that they are not yet well represented in modern chinese

journals perhaps reflects china's ongoing transition to a modern

urban culture. the fact that these ideas are becoming more

prominent over the past decade is further evidence that the rise

of the chinese middle class and the consequent western

diseases that accompanied this rise have renewed interest in

these formerly " elitist " ideas (of li dong yuan). america is a

country of little emperors. Over 90% of the population has

enough money to indulge themselves in ways never possible

before for most of the world. It only makes sense that we might

be more in need of li dong yuan than zhang zhong jing right now.

 

Since the commentaries on this body of work are skimpier than

those for the SHL and because of certain unique conditions of

modern life, it is necessary for modern commentaries to be

written. I can think of no one better suited than Chip and Bob to

do this. they are both rigorous at tracing the lineage of their

ideas. and they are not without precedent. Subhuti

dharmananda has written about the trend towards large

formulas explicitly addressing many treatment principles going

back to the early qing dyasty (1600's). Heiner fruehauf also

describes such an approach in his work on gu syndrome. I

noticed the 2 of the studies in the first issue of the New England

Journal of TCM explicitly stated treating with 4-7 treatment

principles for certain conditions such as BPH.

 

so the fact that something has never been " mainstream " does

not mean the ideas cannot be developed further. the school of

blood stasis stagnated for 200 years before it rose to

prominence and led to a classic work by yan de xin. this is

wholly different from something like NAET, which is a purely

modern application with no rooting in traditional concepts

(though reportedly effective, nevertheless).

 

[Guest guest]

 

I couldn't have said it any better. We live 'higher on the hog'

than King Solomon in his time. You really 'tell it like it is'.

 

 

On Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 06:01 PM, 1 wrote:

 

> Before the modern era, acute infectious illnesses dominated the

> the doctor's day in every country in the world.  and they were by

> far the leading cause of death.  so it is no surprise that the

> treatment of wai shang (external damage) was the

> preoccupation of many generations of chinese physicians, well

> into the communist era.  Li dong yuan focused on nei shang

> (internal damage).  It is no surprise that his ideas were less

> practical for most physicians.  However, court physicians who

> treated the aristocracy (or communist party bosses) were no

> doubt faced with patients who were sedentary eaters of fatty,

> overly flavored foods, with many concubines, perhaps smoking

> and drinking, etc.  this very small group of elite would exhibit the

> same diseases of the modern couch potato.

>

> today, nei shang dominates the practice of american TCM docs. 

> thus, the ideas of li dong yuan have risen in importance.  the fact

> that they are not yet well represented in modern chinese

> journals perhaps reflects china's ongoing transition to a modern

> urban culture.  the fact that these ideas are becoming more

> prominent over the past decade is further evidence that the rise

> of the chinese middle class and the consequent western

> diseases that accompanied this rise have renewed interest in

> these formerly " elitist " ideas (of li dong yuan).  america is a

> country of little emperors.  Over 90% of the population has

> enough money to indulge themselves in ways never possible

> before for most of the world.  It only makes sense that we might

> be more in need of li dong yuan than zhang zhong jing right now.

[Guest guest]

With regard to lay out of books what has helped me to begin to read the blue poppy books is a practical dictionary of Chinese medicine. However do think there is room for "improvment" on "didactical lay/approach" out of the blue poppy books:

 

 

More commentaries to explain the main text, more foot notes to elaborate on main text and commentaries.

 

These "ought" to be taken from Asia as well as contemporary practitioners in non Asian countries, maybe appendix where interviews in Q & A style format would be useful... or Case histories relaying and "breaking" down the theoretical approach emphasising "origin of impulse" leading to clinical decision making, hence treatment determination...

 

 

Just some ideas...

 

 

Marco Bergh

 

ps. Zev thanks for the recommendations...

 

 

 

-

 

Thursday, August 29, 2002 2:17 PM

Re: Digest Number 1107

Bob Flaws in an earlier post already expressed his interest in retranslating the text. Remember, 12 years ago is a long time in this field. . . .the same text translated now would probably be easier to read. What I do is check the Blue Poppy text against the Chinese original (as best I can).On Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 08:37 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

Blue Poppy Press has translated "Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach" by Li Dong-yuan, and two books by Zhu Dan-xi. I highly recommend them to you.>>>I find the translation quite clumsy and difficult to readAlon

[Guest guest]

the argument goes that the ideas of li dong yuan are particularly well suited to explaining and treating complex modern illnesses.

>>>Todd i was talking about the interpretation of the work not the popularity of it is china. Also, Chip has told me that he now thinks that they probably made more of these ideas than appropriate

Alon