Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 > > > > If there is anything at all to be > > gained from the comparison of complexity > > and Chinese medicine, it ought to help > > us think and exchange our thoughts > > more clearly. > > Ken > > I mostly agree with your post. Always cause for concern. Were you > expressing agreement > with me? I couldn't tell. I lost track. I think I was responding to a question from Jim as to why I said I only reluctantly touted similarities between complexity and Chinese medicine. What I disagreed with you about was your characterization of what I have had to say on this topic. I don't like to tout similarities. I think that there is reason to believe that more investigation of the these two disciplines could reveal useful insights. This led to the subject that you now say you disagree with Bucky Fuller about, i.e., the departmentalization of knowledge. So perhaps you and I still have some disagreement. > > However, I don't quite agree with what Fuller > said about > departmentalization of knowledge. Have you read Fuller? I hope you're not simply disagreeing with my characterization of what Bucky had to say. Ken Wilber > believes that > domains of knowing only reach fruition when > they differentiate > from each other. It is only when they > dissociate from each other > that the split becomes pathological. I have not read Ken Wilber so can't really respond as to what he believes. What I saw you doing in your post that ticked all this off was creating a kind of factioning of thought into " camps " , and I question whether or not that is productive. This is a > point that is > discussed at some length in an upcoming CAOM > article (or is it > out yet?). Belinda Anderson has written about Wilber's work in CAOM, and I believe there is more to come from her. Is that what you mean? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 Marco, > > Ken, this topic on a sincere and > academical-clinical-life at large level would > be a great topic for say ACOM (I think). Could very well be. How about taking it on? > > Ken, have you had a chance of forwarding my > polite but blunt message to SAR and any > feedback? I'll take it up with Richard and Steve the next time I see them. I think some things are just more effectively dealt with in person than via email or on the phone. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2002 Report Share Posted August 29, 2002 Sorry, I didn't make it clear that the various theories I've run across are in the middle stage of Hep C (which may last decades) where there are no other signs other than Western. Latent Qi Warm disease is one concept many others have mentioned. Flaws in the Treatment of Western Diseases circumvents the whole idea of a " hep c theory " (perhaps correctly, maybe not) when he says that a pattern can be found if you dig deep enough and then treat in (what seems to me seems) a traditional zang-fu manner. I'm just not clear that this pattern will address the Hepatitis or be a pattern laid on top. Certainly this approach helps the patient, but can Hep C do damage while the other patterns are being treated and/or cured? I don't know. I would agree that oversimplification should be avoided, however theory in this case leads treatment. Maybe it's the nature of a virus that does this. Certainly as with HIV/AIDS, we have to step back and say " what is this? " Of course, later when the effects of cirrhosis, fatigue, nausea begin, treatments are clear. It's this middle stage that intrigues me. doug > On Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 11:07 PM, wrote: > > > > > Even within the TCM community, some claim Hep C is a Shao Yang problem, > > others heat in the blood, others dampness and everyone has an arguement > > against the other. > ------------ > This sounds to me like whoever is saying this is not diagnosing or > presenting a comprehensive picture of the pattern diagnosis. All of > these statements will be partial in a complex condition like that which > accompanies the hepatitis C virus. Oversimplificiation will miss the > boat completely. > > There will be multi-patterns in such cases, and the diagnosis will > change according to the stage of the disease. Early stages, if > diagnosed, will usually involve a latent qi warm disease pattern. > Later on, as more organic damage is witnessed, several visceral-bowel > systems will be impacted. > > In the present, post-industrial milieu of disease, one needs to have > the tools of Warm Disease, SHL, multi-pattern zang-fu, Li-Zhu theory > and channel theory to treat such conditions, choosing according to > stage of disease and complexity. Otherwise, confusion results. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2002 Report Share Posted August 29, 2002 I'm just not clear that this pattern will address theHepatitis or be a pattern laid on top. Certainly this approach helps thepatient, but can Hep C do damage while the other patterns are beingtreated and/or cured? I don't know. >>>>These are the nature of questions I always raise when the idea of treating a pattern is suggested as an ALWAYS appropriate path. To me after 20 years of seeing real patients in both US, China and Japan the answer is definitely no. One can not assume that a biomedical defined disease will improve when a TCM pattern is followed and treated, even when TCM S/S are improving. I have seen this happen and its almost like the saying of the surgery was a success but the patient is dead Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2002 Report Share Posted August 29, 2002 Marco:> > Ken, this topic on a sincere and> academical-clinical-life at large level would> be a great topic for say ACOM (I think). Ken: Could very well be. How about taking it on? Marco: The topic is far beyond my capabilities both in background knowledge and accesses to information and comprehension there of... However I think it would sincerely be a topic worth while CAOM and or Journal of Chinese medicine i.e. "... Dr. Li Mingzhong (above), director of a hospital of Chinese medicine in a Shandong county town, posing with part of his library of medical books. Dr. Li specializes in a form of Chinese medical practice that uses the analytical systems of the book of Changes as a major resource, 1990.) Does any one know about this person Li Mingzhong? Does he still work there or retire or moved ...? Has anyone seen any of his or other well trained people's writings on the book of changes and medicine? How small/big would a hospital in a Shandong county town be? What patient demographics would they see?..." Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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