key terms

[Guest guest]

dear list...

 

The group that is meeting on Sundays is currently "studying" - five phases.

 

we are currently using the Fundamentals of Chinese medicine...

 

One task has been to translate:

 

El text Ingles (originalmente fue en Chino):

 

Wood is bending and the straighting, having the characteristics of growth, upbearing and effusion;

Fire is the flaming upwards, having the quality of heat and upward motion;

Earth is the sowing and reaping, representing the planting and harvesting of crops and the bringing forth of phenomena.

Metal is the working of change, having the qualities of purefication, elimination, and reform;

Water is the moisting and descending to low places, having the qualities of moisting, downward movment, and coldness.

 

 

Y

 

boosting fire to engender earth,

banking up earth to engender metal,

mutual engendering of metal and water,

enriching water to moisten wood,

banking up earth to dam water.

 

 

It is not clear to me where these paragraphs are "originally" taken from?

 

some of the translations:

 

La madera es flexible y recta, teniendo las características de crecimíento, energía y efusioón.

 

El fuego son las llamas que flamean hacia arriba, teniendo la características del calor y el movimiento que fluye hacia arribá.

 

la tierra es la siembra y la cosecha, representa lo que se puede sembrar y recolectar de la cosecha, trayendo los fenómenos hacia delante.

 

El metal es el trabajo de cambio, teniendo la características de purificar, eliminar y reformar.

 

Agua es la humedad y el decaimiento del placer, caracterizandose por humectar, el movimiento hacia adentro y el frío.

 

 

 

 

 

Ardiendo en llamas para egendrar la tierra, allimentando la tierra para egendrar el metal, el metal engendrando mutuamente al agua, enriqueciendo el agua para humedecer la madera, alimentando la tierra para que baje el agua.

 

 

 

-------

 

 

Madera es el doblar y el enderzar, teniendo la caracteristica del crecimiento el soporte y la efusión.

Fuego es la llama ascendente, teniendo la cualidad del fuego y el movimiento ascendente.

tierra es la siembra y la cosecha, representando el sembrar y el cosechar y el nacimiento de los fenómenos.

Metal es el trabajo del cambio, teniendo las cualidades de purificacioón, eliminación y reforma.

Agua es la humedad y el desceno a los lugares bajos, teniendo las cualidades de humedecer, movimiento descendente y frío.

 

 

 

 

Incrementar el fuego para generar tierra,

acumular tierra para generar metal,

generación mutua de metal y agua,

enriquecer el agua para humedecer la madera,

acumular la tierra para contener agua.

 

Those of you whom speaks and or read and or write Spanish will detect that there is a difference in translation both in syntax and meaning. I have a opinion of which translation is closer to the "original" English but of course have no idea as to original Chinese...What do you whom happen to speak Spanish opinion?

 

These are two people receiving the same "classes" and participating the same, it is not to say that one is better then the other but one translation is more representive of the English language (which in turn has come from the Chinese language).

 

However the two translations could have had something more in common if we had a framework and criteria for translation in the first place, since in Guatemala (my beloved Guatemala) we have not advanced in terms of taking Chinese medicine seriously, we have no strategy and criteria for translating English Language Chinese medical knowledge, let alone Chinese medical knowledge-knowing in the Chinese and or other Asian languages into Kichee+ and or Spanish...

 

however it is one aim of the classes hence the following:

 

How "should" one decide criteria and strategy for translating?

What is denotive, conotive and functional translation?

What is source translation and target translations, and how can such an oddity (as target ranslation) be minimise in translation?

 

How can I learn medical Chinese?

 

Apart from Unschuld any good books...?

 

 

As for key terms:

 

Movement

Interdependent

a question of "intensidad"

difference in physiology-pathology

diagnoses for treatment strategy-and actual treatment (at times)

Similiaries but different aspect (and at times different function...)

"not one way but all ways/directions"

different origin yinyang five phases, naturalists(?) legalists(?)

prognoses

constant transition "stages", hence impossible elements...

derived from nature and natural phenomena but not "directly"

 

 

to begin to "explain" and comprehend five crossroads...in clinical practice, hence Chinese medicine...

any others...?

 

Marco Bergh

[Guest guest]

Dear Rey,

 

 

Thank you very much... will present your translation to the class as well so they can see the fascinating and practical aspects as to language awareness.

 

I agree with you, with regard to your concise comments of translation. Hence these Spanish translations that we are doing are preliminary and more then anything for the class to realise these issues and attributes that are needed to translate and hence aim to comprehend and promote Chinese medicine.. Sense non of us speak Chinese any real translation can not take place yet.

 

Any one aware if Fundamentals of Chinese medicine paradigm press has been translated into the in to the Spanish Language?

 

Hopefully it is a sector that will be lucrative enough to invest time and .... in years to come...

 

and Rey thanks again for the interesting and useful responds

 

Marco

 

 

-

rey tiquia

Cc: hrv

Sunday, September 01, 2002 8:57 AM

Re: "key terms"

Dear Marco,I think I can pinpoint the Chinese language source of the passage below on what I refer to as one of the indispensable imaginaries or metaphorical commitments of TCM i.e. the Five Phases or Wu Xing . I translated part of the Chinese language article twenty years ago when I was doing part time lecturing at the Melbourne Acupuncture College. At that time Ted Kaptchuk's book has not come out yet. These lecture materials then became my lecture notes on' Foundation Theory on TCM. ' During those times there were no computers so I typed my translations using a manual underwood portable typewriter. Now the paper is turning brown and the staples are becoming rusty. Back to your question, I think the source of that English material on the Five Phases was translated from an article written by Fang Yao Zhong entitled " Discussion on the Content of the Doctrine of the Yin and Yang and Five Phases and Their Status and Influence On the Study of T CM " ( Tan yin yang wu xing xue shuo de jiben neirong ji qi zai zhongyi xue zhong de di wei he ying xiang ) in the antology Selected Lectures on Specialized Topics on TCM Zhong yi zhuanti jiangzuo xuan (l981). Postgraduate Class of the Beijing Research Academy. People's Health Publishing House. Beijing. pp. 18-36

wood is bending and the straighting, having the characteristics of growth, upbearing and effusion;Fire is the flaming upwards, having the quality of heat and upward motion;Earth is the sowing and reaping, representing the planting and harvesting of crops and the bringing forth of phenomena.Metal is the working of change, having the qualities of purefication, elimination, and reform;Water is the moisting and descending to low places, having the qualities of moisting, downward movment, and coldness. The above segment is an abbreviated translation from the Hong Fan chapter of the Shang Shu with an extended elaboration by Fang Yao Zhong. The following is my translation of a corresponding segment Wood has the characteristics of bending and extending; easily set in motion and a tendency to ext end outwards. Fire smoulders upwards; red and bright ; warm and hot and consumes. Earth grows things; and brings about transformation and change. Metal generates sound as well as brings about a clearing and the passing away of things. Water is cold, descends, moistens and pictures hibernation. boosting fire to engender earth,

banking up earth to engender metal,mutual engendering of metal and water,enriching water to moisten wood,banking up earth to dam water. This segment is a translation of a portion of Fang Yao Zhong's paper on the inter-generation xiang sheng relationships between the Five phases i.re Fire generates Earth; Earth generates Metal; Metal generates Water; Water generates Wood; while Wood generates Fire. An extended explanation of this generational relationship is as follows: For the Earth to generate growth and transformation it needs heat from the sunlight.Hence Fire generates Earth. Metals and minerals are buried undergroung. So Earth generates Metal. Metal can be molten under intense heat. So Metal generates Water. Water is neede to nourish plants and trees.Hence Wat er generates Wood. REgarding your querry on criteria on translations, I think the key is the translator who renders a version of a concept, event, action or idea from one language into another. S/he should be conversant in both languages as well as the concept, idea , event or action s/he is translating. As for the study of medical chinese, I hold the view that in a Chinese medicine curricullum , medical Chinese i.e. classical Chinese should be included. The emphasis should be the reading and comprehension of classical text . It should probably start with medical classical texts written during the Ming and Qing Dynasties. Regards,Rey TiquiaPhd Candidate Dept. of History and Philosophy of ScienceThe University of Melbourne----------"Marco" <bergh "key terms"Sun, Sep 1, 2002, 1:23 PM

dear list... The group that is meeting on Sundays is currently "studying" - five phases. we are currently using the Fundamentals of Chinese medicine... One task has been to translate: El text Ingles (originalmente fue en Chino): Wood is bending and the straighting, having the characteristics of growth, upbearing and effusion;Fire is the flaming upwards, having the quality of heat and upward motion;Earth is the sowing and reaping, representing the planting and harvesting of crops and the bringing forth of phenomena.Metal is the working of change, having the qualities of purefication, elimination, and reform;Water is the moisting and descending to low places, having the qualities of moisting, downward movment, and coldness. Y boosting fire to engender earth,banking up earth to engender metal,mutual engendering of metal and water,enriching water to moisten wood,banking up earth to dam water. It is not clear to me where these paragraphs are "originally" taken from? some of the translations: La madera es flexible y recta, teniendo las características de crecimíento, energía y efusioón. El fuego son las llamas que flamean hacia arriba, teniendo la características del calor y el movimiento que fluye hacia arribá. la tierra es la siembra y la cosecha, representa lo que se puede sembrar y recolectar de la cosecha, trayendo los fenómenos hacia delante. El metal es el trabajo de cambio, teniendo la características de purificar, eliminar y reformar. Agua es la humedad y el decaimiento del placer, caracterizandose por humectar, el movimiento hacia adentro y el frío. Ardiendo en llamas para egendrar la tierra, allimentando la tierra para egendrar el metal, el metal engendrando mutuamente al agua, enriqueciendo el agua para humedecer la madera, alimentando la tierra para que baje el agua. -------

Madera es el doblar y el enderzar, teniendo la caracteristica del crecimiento el soporte y la efusión. Fuego es la llama ascendente, teniendo la cualidad del fuego y el movimiento ascendente. tierra es la siembra y la cosecha, representando el sembrar y el cosechar y el nacimiento de los fenómenos. Metal es el trabajo del cambio, teniendo las cualidades de purificacioón, eliminación y reforma. Agua es la humedad y el desceno a los lugares bajos, teniendo las cualidades de humedecer, movimiento descendente y frío. Incrementar el fuego para generar tierra,acumular tierra para generar metal,generación mutua de metal y agua,enriquecer el agua para humedecer la madera,acumular la tierra para contener agua.

Those of you whom speaks and or read and or write Spanish will detect that there is a difference in translation both in syntax and meaning. I have a opinion of which translation is closer to the "original" English but of course have no idea as to original Chinese...What do you whom happen to speak Spanish opinion? These are two people receiving the same "classes" and participating the same, it is not to say that one is better then the other but one translation is more representive of the English language (which in turn has come from the Chinese language). However the two translations could have had something more in common if we had a framework and criteria for translation in the first place, since in Guatemala (my beloved Guatemala) we have not advanced in terms of taking Chinese medicine seriously, we have no strategy and criteria for translating English Language Chinese medical knowledge, let alone Chinese medical knowledge-knowing in the Chinese and or other Asian languages into Kichee+ and or Spanish... however it is one aim of the classes hence the following: How "should" one decide criteria and strategy for translating?What is denotive, conotive and functional translation?What is source translation and target translations, and how can such an oddity (as target ranslation) be minimise in translation? How can I learn medical Chinese? Apart from Unschuld any good books...? As for key terms: MovementInterdependent a question of "intensidad"difference in physiology-pathologydiagnoses for treatment strategy-and actual treatment (at times)Similiaries but different aspect (and at times different function...)"not one way but all ways/directions"different origin yinyang five phases, naturalists(?) legalists(?)prognosesconstant transition "stages", hence impossible elements...derived from nature and natural phenomena but not "directly" to begin to "explain" and comprehend five crossroads...in clinical practice, hence Chinese medicine...any others...? Marco Bergh

[Guest guest]

Dear Marco,

 

I think I can pinpoint the Chinese language source of the passage below on what I refer to as one of the indispensable imaginaries or metaphorical commitments of TCM i.e. the Five Phases or Wu Xing . I translated part of the Chinese language article twenty years ago when I was doing part time lecturing at the Melbourne Acupuncture College. At that time Ted Kaptchuk's book has not come out yet. These lecture materials then became my lecture notes on' Foundation Theory on TCM. ' During those times there were no computers so I typed my translations using a manual underwood portable typewriter. Now the paper is turning brown and the staples are becoming rusty.

 

Back to your question, I think the source of that English material on the Five Phases was translated from an article written by Fang Yao Zhong entitled " Discussion on the Content of the Doctrine of the Yin and Yang and Five Phases and Their Status and Influence On the Study of T CM " ( Tan yin yang wu xing xue shuo de jiben neirong ji qi zai zhongyi xue zhong de di wei he ying xiang ) in the antology Selected Lectures on Specialized Topics on TCM Zhong yi zhuanti jiangzuo xuan (l981). Postgraduate Class of the Beijing Research Academy. People's Health Publishing House. Beijing. pp. 18-36

 

wood is bending and the straighting, having the characteristics of growth, upbearing and effusion;

Fire is the flaming upwards, having the quality of heat and upward motion;

Earth is the sowing and reaping, representing the planting and harvesting of crops and the bringing forth of phenomena.

Metal is the working of change, having the qualities of purefication, elimination, and reform;

Water is the moisting and descending to low places, having the qualities of moisting, downward movment, and coldness.

 

The above segment is an abbreviated translation from the Hong Fan chapter of the Shang Shu with an extended elaboration by Fang Yao Zhong. The following is my translation of a corresponding segment

 

Wood has the characteristics of bending and extending; easily set in motion and a tendency to ext end

outwards.

Fire smoulders upwards; red and bright ; warm and hot and consumes.

Earth grows things; and brings about transformation and change.

Metal generates sound as well as brings about a clearing and the passing away of things.

Water is cold, descends, moistens and pictures hibernation.

 

boosting fire to engender earth,

banking up earth to engender metal,

mutual engendering of metal and water,

enriching water to moisten wood,

banking up earth to dam water.

 

This segment is a translation of a portion of Fang Yao Zhong's paper on the inter-generation xiang sheng relationships between the Five phases i.re Fire generates Earth; Earth generates Metal; Metal generates Water; Water generates Wood; while Wood generates Fire. An extended explanation of this generational relationship is as follows:

 

For the Earth to generate growth and transformation it needs heat from the sunlight.Hence Fire generates Earth. Metals and minerals are buried undergroung. So Earth generates Metal. Metal can be molten under intense heat. So Metal generates Water. Water is neede to nourish plants and trees.Hence Wat er generates Wood.

 

REgarding your querry on criteria on translations, I think the key is the translator who renders a version of a concept, event, action or idea from one language into another. S/he should be conversant in both languages as well as the concept, idea , event or action s/he is translating.

 

As for the study of medical chinese, I hold the view that in a Chinese medicine curricullum , medical Chinese i.e. classical Chinese should be included. The emphasis should be the reading and comprehension of classical text . It should probably start with medical classical texts written during the Ming and Qing Dynasties.

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

Phd Candidate

Dept. of History and Philosophy of Science

The University of Melbourne

 

----------

" Marco " <bergh

 

" key terms "

Sun, Sep 1, 2002, 1:23 PM

 

 

dear list...

 

The group that is meeting on Sundays is currently " studying " - five phases.

 

we are currently using the Fundamentals of Chinese medicine...

 

One task has been to translate:

 

El text Ingles (originalmente fue en Chino):

 

Wood is bending and the straighting, having the characteristics of growth, upbearing and effusion;

Fire is the flaming upwards, having the quality of heat and upward motion;

Earth is the sowing and reaping, representing the planting and harvesting of crops and the bringing forth of phenomena.

Metal is the working of change, having the qualities of purefication, elimination, and reform;

Water is the moisting and descending to low places, having the qualities of moisting, downward movment, and coldness.

 

 

Y

 

boosting fire to engender earth,

banking up earth to engender metal,

mutual engendering of metal and water,

enriching water to moisten wood,

banking up earth to dam water.

 

 

It is not clear to me where these paragraphs are " originally " taken from?

 

some of the translations:

 

La madera es flexible y recta, teniendo las características de crecimíento, energía y efusioón.

 

El fuego son las llamas que flamean hacia arriba, teniendo la características del calor y el movimiento que fluye hacia arribá.

 

la tierra es la siembra y la cosecha, representa lo que se puede sembrar y recolectar de la cosecha, trayendo los fenómenos hacia delante.

 

El metal es el trabajo de cambio, teniendo la características de purificar, eliminar y reformar.

 

Agua es la humedad y el decaimiento del placer, caracterizandose por humectar, el movimiento hacia adentro y el frío.

 

 

 

 

 

Ardiendo en llamas para egendrar la tierra, allimentando la tierra para egendrar el metal, el metal engendrando mutuamente al agua, enriqueciendo el agua para humedecer la madera, alimentando la tierra para que baje el agua.

 

 

 

-------

 

 

 

 

Madera es el doblar y el enderzar, teniendo la caracteristica del crecimiento el soporte y la efusión.

Fuego es la llama ascendente, teniendo la cualidad del fuego y el movimiento ascendente.

tierra es la siembra y la cosecha, representando el sembrar y el cosechar y el nacimiento de los fenómenos.

Metal es el trabajo del cambio, teniendo las cualidades de purificacioón, eliminación y reforma.

Agua es la humedad y el desceno a los lugares bajos, teniendo las cualidades de humedecer, movimiento descendente y frío.

 

 

 

 

Incrementar el fuego para generar tierra,

acumular tierra para generar metal,

generación mutua de metal y agua,

enriquecer el agua para humedecer la madera,

acumular la tierra para contener agua.

 

 

 

Those of you whom speaks and or read and or write Spanish will detect that there is a difference in translation both in syntax and meaning. I have a opinion of which translation is closer to the " original " English but of course have no idea as to original Chinese...What do you whom happen to speak Spanish opinion?

 

These are two people receiving the same " classes " and participating the same, it is not to say that one is better then the other but one translation is more representive of the English language (which in turn has come from the Chinese language).

 

However the two translations could have had something more in common if we had a framework and criteria for translation in the first place, since in Guatemala (my beloved Guatemala) we have not advanced in terms of taking Chinese medicine seriously, we have no strategy and criteria for translating English Language Chinese medical knowledge, let alone Chinese medical knowledge-knowing in the Chinese and or other Asian languages into Kichee+ and or Spanish...

 

however it is one aim of the classes hence the following:

 

How " should " one decide criteria and strategy for translating?

What is denotive, conotive and functional translation?

What is source translation and target translations, and how can such an oddity (as target ranslation) be minimise in translation?

 

How can I learn medical Chinese?

 

Apart from Unschuld any good books...?

 

 

As for key terms:

 

Movement

Interdependent

a question of " intensidad "

difference in physiology-pathology

diagnoses for treatment strategy-and actual treatment (at times)

Similiaries but different aspect (and at times different function...)

" not one way but all ways/directions "

different origin yinyang five phases, naturalists(?) legalists(?)

prognoses

constant transition " stages " , hence impossible elements...

derived from nature and natural phenomena but not " directly "

 

 

to begin to " explain " and comprehend five crossroads...in clinical practice, hence Chinese medicine...

any others...?

 

Marco Bergh

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thinking out loud...

 

Didn't Nigel Wiseman get his BA in Spanish? Could he be reached for

comment on this, I wonder -- might be better coming from the horse's

mouth, so to speak.

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

Interesting. . .

I was so impressed with Fang Yao Zhong's work as covered in Volker

Scheid's book that I started including it in my lectures at Pacific

College of Oriental Medicine. I was especially impressed with his

reintegration of five phases into bian zheng lun zhi.

 

Z;ev Rosenberg

On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 06:57 AM, rey tiquia wrote:

 

> Back to your  question, I think the source of that English material on

> the Five Phases was translated from an article written by Fang Yao

> Zhong entitled " Discussion on the Content of the Doctrine of the Yin

> and Yang and Five Phases and Their Status and Influence On the Study

> of T CM " ( Tan yin yang wu xing xue shuo de jiben neirong ji qi zai

> zhongyi xue zhong de di wei he ying xiang ) in  the antology Selected

> Lectures on Specialized Topics on TCM Zhong yi zhuanti jiangzuo xuan

> (l981). Postgraduate Class of the Beijing Research Academy. People's

> Health Publishing House. Beijing. pp. 18-36

[Guest guest]

dear Z'ev,

 

I have read a few works of Fang Yao Zhong and I found a wealth of

information from his writings expecially his book on Seven Lectures on

Research on Bian Zheng Lun Zhi. (l979, People's Health Publishing House)

which helped me a lot in my masters thesis. However, not knowing who he is

and where he is coming from I easily got 'seduced' by his 'modernistic' and

'scientistic' frames which found expression in his 'theories' on

integrating Chinese medicine with Western Scientific Medicine or Zhong xi yi

jie which more or less followed the official party line on developing

Chinese medicine in the Mainland. A case in point is his treatment of the

Five Phases, which he considered as 'scientific theoretical constructs'

instead of a set of analogical tool or imaginary. In the book Seven Lectures

on Research on Bian Zheng Lun Zhi, he almost presented the Wu Zang Liu Fu as

'equivalent to the anatomical dissectional organs in biomedicine.

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

----------

> " " <zrosenbe

>

>Re: " key terms "

>Mon, Sep 2, 2002, 12:42 AM

>

 

> Interesting. . .

> I was so impressed with Fang Yao Zhong's work as covered in Volker

> Scheid's book that I started including it in my lectures at Pacific College

> of Oriental Medicine. I was especially impressed with his reintegration of

> five phases into bian zheng lun zhi.

>

> Z;ev Rosenberg

> On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 06:57 AM, rey tiquia wrote:

>

> Back to your  question, I think the source of that English material on the

> Five Phases was translated from an article written by Fang Yao Zhong

> entitled " Discussion on the Content of the Doctrine of the Yin and Yang

> and Five Phases and Their Status and Influence On the Study of T CM " ( Tan

> yin yang wu xing xue shuo de jiben neirong ji qi zai zhongyi xue zhong de

> di wei he ying xiang ) in  the antology Selected Lectures on Specialized

> Topics on TCM Zhong yi zhuanti jiangzuo xuan (l981). Postgraduate Class of

> the Beijing Research Academy. People's Health Publishing House. Beijing. pp.

18-36

[Guest guest]

Dear Rey,

I agree with you about the 'scientized' tendencies of the modern

architects of TCM. Perhaps it was the only way to survive in the

politicized structure of the time in the Chinese TCM world. At least

the original principles (yin-yang, five phase, six divisions) are

there. You must admit, he did a good job of it.

 

A similar point. . . Paul Unschuld used a basic primer on TCM by Qin

Bo-wei for his " Learn to Read Chinese " text. From my perspective, the

language of this text is highly 'scientized', and difficult to read,

and therefore to use as a text to teach or learn medical Chinese

without access to other source texts (although I would still recommend

it as a good text to learn because of how it is presented).

Surprisingly, I found a course in classical Chinese literature easier

to learn because of the simplified sentence structures, despite the

increased complexity of the characters.

 

I decided for myself, for now, to stick with more 'classical'

materials, with simplified characters when possible. I find journal

articles quite difficult to read in particular.

 

 

 

P.S. I enjoyed your article that you uploaded to CHA, but I do believe

it is missing the last page. I share your point of view on the state

of our medical art.

 

On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 03:37 PM, rey tiquia wrote:

 

>

> dear Z'ev,

>

> I have read a few works of Fang Yao Zhong and I found a wealth of

> information from his writings expecially his book on Seven Lectures on

> Research on Bian Zheng Lun Zhi. (l979, People's Health Publishing

> House)

> which helped me a lot in my masters thesis. However, not knowing who

> he is

> and where he is coming from I easily got 'seduced' by his

> 'modernistic' and

> 'scientistic'  frames which found expression in his 'theories' on

> integrating Chinese medicine with Western Scientific Medicine or Zhong

> xi yi

> jie which more or less followed the official party line on developing

> Chinese medicine in the Mainland. A case in point is his treatment of

> the

> Five Phases, which he considered as 'scientific theoretical constructs'

> instead of a set of analogical tool or imaginary. In the book Seven

> Lectures

> on Research on Bian Zheng Lun Zhi, he almost presented the Wu Zang Liu

> Fu as

> 'equivalent to the anatomical dissectional organs in biomedicine.

>

> Regards,

>

> Rey Tiquia

>

> ----------

> > " " <zrosenbe

> >

> >Re: " key terms "

> >Mon, Sep 2, 2002, 12:42 AM

> >

>

> > Interesting. . .

> >    I was so impressed with Fang Yao Zhong's work as covered in Volker

> > Scheid's book that I started including it in my lectures at Pacific

> College

> > of Oriental Medicine.  I was especially impressed with his

> reintegration of

> > five phases into bian zheng lun zhi.

> >

> > Z;ev Rosenberg

> > On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 06:57 AM, rey tiquia wrote:

> >

> > Back to your  question, I think the source of that English material

> on the

> > Five Phases was translated from an article written by Fang Yao Zhong

> > entitled " Discussion on the Content of the Doctrine of the Yin and

> Yang

> > and Five Phases and Their Status and Influence On the Study of T CM

> " ( Tan

> > yin yang wu xing xue shuo de jiben neirong ji qi zai zhongyi xue

> zhong de

> > di wei he ying xiang ) in  the antology Selected Lectures on

> Specialized

> > Topics on TCM Zhong yi zhuanti jiangzuo xuan (l981). Postgraduate

> Class of

> > the Beijing Research Academy. People's Health Publishing House.

> Beijing. pp.

> 18-36

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev,

 

I think yor are right about the materials " connect " that I downloaded in the

Cha files . I think I missed downloading four pages. I will rectify the

situation .

 

I wonder if Unschuld's " Basic Primer on TCM " is sourced from the same book

by Qin Bo Wei entitled Medical Lecture Drafts In A Humble Room Qian Zhai

Yixue jiang gao (l978 Shanghai Science and TEchnology Publishing House),

which is a collection of lectures he presented in the l960's. One of the

lecture is entitled: " Using TCM Li (Principle) and Method (Fa) in Treating

Diseases Diagnosed in accordance with Western Medicine " . In this article he

continued the tradition of " converging TCM and biomedicine " Hui Tong which

evolved at the latter part of the l9th century and early part of the 20th

instead of the subsequent " integration of TCM with biomedicine " Zhong Xi Yi

Jie He which developed under Mao . In this speech he warned not to

" forcibly integrate TCM with biomedicine " bu bi qiangqiu jie he (p.198) .

 

I mentioned ths bit to bring accross the message that compared to Fang Yao

Zhong, Qin Bo Wei was less 'beguiled' by the attraction of modernism and

scientism and was more protective of the 'integrity' of the practice of TCM

and thus saw the need to differentiate TCM practice from biomedical

practice. And for this feat, Qin Bo Wei deserves to get more accolade than

Fang Yao Zhong.

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

----------

> " " <zrosenbe

>

>Re: " key terms "

>Mon, Sep 2, 2002, 8:53 AM

>

 

> Dear Rey,

> I agree with you about the 'scientized' tendencies of the modern

> architects of TCM. Perhaps it was the only way to survive in the

> politicized structure of the time in the Chinese TCM world. At least the

> original principles (yin-yang, five phase, six divisions) are there. You

> must admit, he did a good job of it.

>

> A similar point. . . Paul Unschuld used a basic primer on TCM by Qin

> Bo-wei for his " Learn to Read Chinese " text. From my perspective, the

> language of this text is highly 'scientized', and difficult to read, and

> therefore to use as a text to teach or learn medical Chinese without access

> to other source texts (although I would still recommend it as a good text

> to learn because of how it is presented). Surprisingly, I found a course

> in classical Chinese literature easier to learn because of the simplified

> sentence structures, despite the increased complexity of the characters.

>

> I decided for myself, for now, to stick with more 'classical' materials,

> with simplified characters when possible. I find journal articles quite

> difficult to read in particular.

>

>

>

> P.S. I enjoyed your article that you uploaded to CHA, but I do believe it

> is missing the last page. I share your point of view on the state of our

> medical art.

>

> On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 03:37 PM, rey tiquia wrote:

>

>

> dear Z'ev,

>

> I have read a few works of Fang Yao Zhong and I found a wealth of

> information from his writings expecially his book on Seven Lectures on

> Research on Bian Zheng Lun Zhi. (l979, People's Health Publishing House)

> which helped me a lot in my masters thesis. However, not knowing who he is

> and where he is coming from I easily got 'seduced' by his 'modernistic' and

> 'scientistic'  frames which found expression in his 'theories' on

> integrating Chinese medicine with Western Scientific Medicine or Zhong xi yi

> jie which more or less followed the official party line on developing

> Chinese medicine in the Mainland. A case in point is his treatment of the

> Five Phases, which he considered as 'scientific theoretical constructs'

> instead of a set of analogical tool or imaginary. In the book Seven Lectures

> on Research on Bian Zheng Lun Zhi, he almost presented the Wu Zang Liu Fu as

> 'equivalent to the anatomical dissectional organs in biomedicine.

>

> Regards,

>

> Rey Tiquia

>

> ----------

>> " " <zrosenbe

>>

>>Re: " key terms "

>>Mon, Sep 2, 2002, 12:42 AM

>>

>

>> Interesting. . .

>>    I was so impressed with Fang Yao Zhong's work as covered in Volker

>> Scheid's book that I started including it in my lectures at Pacific College

>> of Oriental Medicine.  I was especially impressed with his reintegration of

>> five phases into bian zheng lun zhi.

>>

>> Z;ev Rosenberg

>> On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 06:57 AM, rey tiquia wrote:

>>

>> Back to your  question, I think the source of that English material on the

>> Five Phases was translated from an article written by Fang Yao Zhong

>> entitled " Discussion on the Content of the Doctrine of the Yin and Yang

>> and Five Phases and Their Status and Influence On the Study of T CM " ( Tan

>> yin yang wu xing xue shuo de jiben neirong ji qi zai zhongyi xue zhong de

>> di wei he ying xiang ) in  the antology Selected Lectures on Specialized

>> Topics on TCM Zhong yi zhuanti jiangzuo xuan (l981). Postgraduate Class of

>> the Beijing Research Academy. People's Health Publishing House. Beijing. pp.

> 18-36

>

> <image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

I agree with you about the 'scientized' tendencies of the modern

architects of TCM. Perhaps it was the only way to survive in the

politicized structure of the time in the Chinese TCM world. At

least the original principles (yin-yang, five phase, six divisions)

are there.

 

 

Z'ev, Rey, et al:

 

When teaching, where do you recommend drawing the line

rgarding 'scientized tendencies'?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Just to the best of my ability trying to make the students aware of it.

It is not easy to separate out. . .an accurate historical perspective

is difficult for a westerner (an 'outsider') to obtain (in a different

way than a native Chinese, an 'insider'), but we must do our best.

 

 

On Monday, September 2, 2002, at 05:26 PM, jramholz wrote:

 

> In , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> I agree with you about the 'scientized' tendencies of the modern

> architects of TCM. Perhaps it was the only way to survive in the

> politicized structure of the time in the Chinese TCM world.  At

> least the original principles (yin-yang, five phase, six divisions)

> are there.

>

>

> Z'ev, Rey, et al:

>

> When teaching, where do you recommend drawing the line

> rgarding 'scientized tendencies'?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just to the best of my ability trying to make the students aware of it. It is not easy to separate out

>>>I agree about being aware however we do not know if it is an improvement of not, yet

Alon

[Guest guest]

dear Jim,

 

I agree with Z'ev that it is not an easy thing to do precicely because we

are all in varying degrees not free from this 'tendency' . In addition,

because we have been used to looking at things in this way ( and we are

bombarded everyday in the media about it) hence sometimes it can become

just a 'natural way' at looking at things. I think the first 'line' that

needs to be drawn is within ourselves.

 

Rey Tiquia

----------

> " jramholz " <jramholz

>

> Re: " key terms "

>Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 10:26 AM

>

 

> In , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> I agree with you about the 'scientized' tendencies of the modern

> architects of TCM. Perhaps it was the only way to survive in the

> politicized structure of the time in the Chinese TCM world. At

> least the original principles (yin-yang, five phase, six divisions)

> are there.

>

>

> Z'ev, Rey, et al:

>

> When teaching, where do you recommend drawing the line

> rgarding 'scientized tendencies'?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Rey and Jim,

Every day I fight to keep the 'Chinese medicine' mindset, to see

things from this perspective as much as possible. This is sometimes a

very frustrating task, because of the points that you mentioned. Both

here and in China, we are steeped in the 'scientized' perspective, for

better or worse.

 

One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living

according to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet,

exercise, and harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the

teachings of Chinese medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found

inspiration in the teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the

Ayurvedic Institute in Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of

Western influence.

 

 

 

 

On Monday, September 2, 2002, at 07:07 PM, rey tiquia wrote:

 

> dear Jim,

>

> I agree with Z'ev  that it is not an easy thing to do precicely

> because we

> are all in varying degrees  not free from this 'tendency' . In

> addition,

> because we have been used to looking at things in this way ( and we are

> bombarded everyday in the media about it)  hence sometimes it can

> become

> just a 'natural way' at looking at things. I think  the first 'line' 

> that

> needs to be drawn is within ourselves.

>

> Rey Tiquia

[Guest guest]

Rey:

 

Like you and Z'ev, I don't want to explain CM away as a primitive

type of scientific phenomena. But I have a more liberal approach

when mixing Western physiology and CM since my teacher mixed both

indiscriminately. Both relate well when described as systems, or

using analogies from Complexity Theory.

 

Yet, I believe that sort of correlating should not be made in

schools until the graduate level, so confusion is avoided and

consistancy in CM is maintained.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

> I agree with Z'ev that it is not an easy thing to do precisely

because we are all in varying degrees not free from this 'tendency'.

In addition, because we have been used to looking at things in this

way (and we are bombarded everyday in the media about it) hence

sometimes it can become just a 'natural way' at looking at things. I

think the first 'line' that needs to be drawn is within ourselves.

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

I have no problem with correlating CM with other systems of knowledge. But

the correlation must be in such a way that CM is not 'scientized " i.e. as

you mentioned " explained away " or 'replaced' by other theoretical frames.

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

----------

> " jramholz " <jramholz

>

> Re: " key terms "

>Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 1:52 PM

>

 

> Rey:

>

> Like you and Z'ev, I don't want to explain CM away as a primitive

> type of scientific phenomena. But I have a more liberal approach

> when mixing Western physiology and CM since my teacher mixed both

> indiscriminately. Both relate well when described as systems, or

> using analogies from Complexity Theory.

>

> Yet, I believe that sort of correlating should not be made in

> schools until the graduate level, so confusion is avoided and

> consistancy in CM is maintained.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

>> I agree with Z'ev that it is not an easy thing to do precisely

> because we are all in varying degrees not free from this 'tendency'.

> In addition, because we have been used to looking at things in this

> way (and we are bombarded everyday in the media about it) hence

> sometimes it can become just a 'natural way' at looking at things. I

> think the first 'line' that needs to be drawn is within ourselves.

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good on you Z'ev !!!

 

Rey Tiquia

 

----------

> " " <zrosenbe

>

>Re: Re: " key terms "

>Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 1:21 PM

>

 

> Dear Rey and Jim,

> Every day I fight to keep the 'Chinese medicine' mindset, to see things

> from this perspective as much as possible. This is sometimes a very

> frustrating task, because of the points that you mentioned. Both here and

> in China, we are steeped in the 'scientized' perspective, for better or worse.

>

> One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living

> according to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet,

> exercise, and harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings

> of Chinese medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration

> in the teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic

> Institute in Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence.

>

>

>

>

> On Monday, September 2, 2002, at 07:07 PM, rey tiquia wrote:

>

> dear Jim,

>

> I agree with Z'ev  that it is not an easy thing to do precicely because we

> are all in varying degrees  not free from this 'tendency' . In addition,

> because we have been used to looking at things in this way ( and we are

> bombarded everyday in the media about it)  hence sometimes it can become

> just a 'natural way' at looking at things. I think  the first 'line'  that

> needs to be drawn is within ourselves.

>

> Rey Tiquia

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Zev, Rey and Jim,

 

 

Very interesting...

 

I think this topic within Educational frame work is yet to begin and since my experience is minute in comparative terms...

 

Still, with the small group that are studying Sundays I more or less always challenge them as to why they use a term:

 

Hypertension and not high blood pressure (e.g.)

 

How can it be related to its own original Cosmovision (i.e. Western philosophy)

 

How can it be related to Chinese medicine, analysed from a Chinese medical theoretical approach - praxis theory vis a vis.

 

"What changes to clinical practice does it make"

 

From using hypertension in a Western Cosmovision since, and from "understanding" the term (high blood pressure).

 

From analysing it ("as much as possible") from a Chinese medical perspective which is in the first place also a so call TCM perspective, hence in actuality the analytical approach in it self needs to be analysed... (not to mention where I am currently at with regard to my knowing TCM...)

 

Thus we consider bits of information and the "preliminary conclusion" is that we as a group have not sufficient information to draw any conclusive opinion only a need to develop "logistical dicisionmaking for the clinic and life at large".

 

I also try to emphasise issues such as these, that the list and you all have discussed and are discussing.

 

The objective-purpose-idea is to plant the seed for people whom going to potentially be:

 

"contemplative reflective critical thinking TCM practitioners"

 

What about PRC and other Asian countries are the trends changing is the policy of so call three roads still implemented in China or was it never really implemented in the first place.

 

What is the opinions of Chinese doctors and educators in Universities Shandong, Nan Jing, Beijing, Ho Chi Minh, Hanio Soul... public health politicians whom may or may not be Chinese doctors...and so forth?

 

I for one would be interested to hear what the "trends" are after fifty years or so of creating "Frankenstein's monster and or so cal Western sciencetifical traditional Chinese medicine:-)"

 

It is also a key point (I think) that China and other Asian countries has to greater and lesser extent made Chinese medicine part of the Official medicine, here not considering the cons and pros in the way it has been done and being done....

 

Zev:

One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living according to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet, exercise, and harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings of Chinese medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration in the teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic Institute in Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence. Marco:

 

Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the interactive experience with the Ayerveda college?

 

 

Marco bergh

 

 

Whom is suffering

The sister in law

yet to leave

 

When, when, when...?

 

A cultural chock

indeed

Sexistic and Machoistic

but not thinking

 

Any natural drugs spells or?

that can hasten

the

departure

 

Of the "sister in law"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

Monday, September 02, 2002 10:21 PM

Re: Re: "key terms"

Dear Rey and Jim,Every day I fight to keep the 'Chinese medicine' mindset, to see things from this perspective as much as possible. This is sometimes a very frustrating task, because of the points that you mentioned. Both here and in China, we are steeped in the 'scientized' perspective, for better or worse. One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living according to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet, exercise, and harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings of Chinese medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration in the teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic Institute in Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence. On Monday, September 2, 2002, at 07:07 PM, rey tiquia wrote:

dear Jim,I agree with Z'ev that it is not an easy thing to do precicely because weare all in varying degrees not free from this 'tendency' . In addition,because we have been used to looking at things in this way ( and we arebombarded everyday in the media about it) hence sometimes it can becomejust a 'natural way' at looking at things. I think the first 'line' thatneeds to be drawn is within ourselves.Rey Tiquia

[Guest guest]

Marco,

I'll put it this way. When I was in Albuquerque, I stopped by an

Ayurvedic restaurant (Annapurna) whose food was some of the highest

quality I ever ate in a restaurant. I went from there to the Ayurvedic

Institute, where I bought Dr. Vasant Lad's new textbook. The

instruction there emphasizes the importance of constitutional types in

treatment, daily lifestyle, diet, yoga, and has a special clinic for

panchakarma treatment, a special comprehensive cleansing regimen.

There is an emphasis on upright living and the practice of the

Ayurvedic lifestyle among the students.

 

To quote their catalog (from the Charaka Samhita):

" A wise person desiring to become a physician should first examine the

system being taught, its authenticity, completeness and applicability.

Thereafter, one should examine the teacher. The teacher should possess

a deep understanding of the theoretical and practical aspects of the

science, have extensive experience in practice, be skillful, friendly,

pure, compassionate, fatherly to students, and capable of infusing

understanding.

 

Having decided, approached the teacher with respect and been accepted,

a student should engage in study seriously; wake up early, finish

morning routines and spiritual practices; pay respect to saints, sages,

preceptors, elders, the teacher and all beings. The student should then

make efforts to comprehend, clearly express, and discuss the knowledge

by studying the information already acquired, entering deeply in

contemplation in order to completely understand the meaning and the

applications... "

 

-Charaka Samhita, Vimanasthanam, Chapter Eight

 

 

This has always been the traditional way. Students of traditional

medicine were always asked to eat, sleep and live right in order to

have clear minds and healthy bodies. Without this, it is more

difficult to absorb and learn traditional forms of medicine. While I

don't have a Hindu approach to life, (I am a practicing orthodox Jew),

there are universal aspects of spirituality that can be established in

an individual's life.

 

What a contrast to American Chinese medicine schools, where students

bring Burger King and diet cokes to class and eat while they study!

There seems to be little interest in the students taking care of

themselves, or any obligation to do so. When sick, many students use

antibiotics or other biomedical treatment, without taking advantage of

the tools of Chinese medicine. Chinese medicine is looked at simply as

a profession involving acupuncture and maybe the use of herbs, without

any adjustment to lifestyle among the majority of students.

 

Partially this is because there has not been a systematic

presentation of Chinese medical principles on constitutional typing,

dietetics, exercise (qi gong), and the tao of medicine in daily life.

Unfortunately, it is more difficult to get a good grasp on the medicine

without this.

 

After all, these subjects are not required to take the state boards!

 

What are our priorities in the profession in producing the next

generation of practitioners?

 

Am I an idealist? So be it.

 

 

On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 05:06 AM, Marco wrote:

 

> Zev:

> One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living

> according to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet,

> exercise, and harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the

> teachings of Chinese medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found

> inspiration in the teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the

> Ayurvedic Institute in Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of

> Western influence.

>

> Marco:

>  

> Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the

> interactive experience with the Ayerveda college?

>  

[Guest guest]

Thanks Z'ev, this is the type of thread that I was hoping to establish with my recent response to the "invest in loss" thread. It seemed to fall on deaf ears. Perhaps people thought I was being sarcastic by asking about acupuncturists who aerobicise, I was a little. But the query is real, and to my mind important.

What is the relationship between the way we "eat, sleep and live", as you put it, and the practice of CM?

My notion is that this may be difficult to discuss, because, of course, we are a profession and not a religion. But, is it a more important for this profession than perhaps that of accountants or hairdressers?

And what of religion?, clearly we are of many and varied traditions, but CM has been practiced by people of many religions for many centuries. What are the "universal aspects of spirituality that can be established" that you mention?

My bias is that it may be easier for a person coming from a particular tradition, like yourself, to gleam the universal aspects that his or her tradition shares with another than someone who perceives themselves as coming from no tradition. any thoughts?

You mention that "There is an emphasis on upright living and the practice of the Ayurvedic lifestyle among the students". are students encouraged to study other aspects of Hinduism?

These are just a few thoughts and queries on what I consider to be a topic that has multiple and significant bearing on the present and future of CM, outside and inside China. I would appreciate your and others ideas on this.

Dean

 

 

-

 

Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:50 AM

Re: Re: "key terms"

Marco,I'll put it this way. When I was in Albuquerque, I stopped by an Ayurvedic restaurant (Annapurna) whose food was some of the highest quality I ever ate in a restaurant. I went from there to the Ayurvedic Institute, where I bought Dr. Vasant Lad's new textbook. The instruction there emphasizes the importance of constitutional types in treatment, daily lifestyle, diet, yoga, and has a special clinic for panchakarma treatment, a special comprehensive cleansing regimen. To quote their catalog (from the Charaka Samhita):"A wise person desiring to become a physician should first examine the system being taught, its authenticity, completeness and applicability. Thereafter, one should examine the teacher. The teacher should possess a deep understanding of the theoretical and practical aspects of the science, have extensive experience in practice, be skillful, friendly, pure, compassionate, fatherly to students, and capable of infusing understanding.Having decided, approached the teacher with respect and been accepted, a student should engage in study seriously; wake up early, finish morning routines and spiritual practices; pay respect to saints, sages, preceptors, elders, the teacher and all beings. The student should then make efforts to comprehend, clearly express, and discuss the knowledge by studying the information already acquired, entering deeply in contemplation in order to completely understand the meaning and the applications..."-Charaka Samhita, Vimanasthanam, Chapter EightThis has always been the traditional way. Students of traditional medicine were always asked to eat, sleep and live right in order to have clear minds and healthy bodies. Without this, it is more difficult to absorb and learn traditional forms of medicine. While I don't have a Hindu approach to life, (I am a practicing orthodox Jew), there are universal aspects of spirituality that can be established in an individual's life. What a contrast to American Chinese medicine schools, where students bring Burger King and diet cokes to class and eat while they study! There seems to be little interest in the students taking care of themselves, or any obligation to do so. When sick, many students use antibiotics or other biomedical treatment, without taking advantage of the tools of Chinese medicine. Chinese medicine is looked at simply as a profession involving acupuncture and maybe the use of herbs, without any adjustment to lifestyle among the majority of students.Partially this is because there has not been a systematic presentation of Chinese medical principles on constitutional typing, dietetics, exercise (qi gong), and the tao of medicine in daily life. Unfortunately, it is more difficult to get a good grasp on the medicine without this. After all, these subjects are not required to take the state boards! What are our priorities in the profession in producing the next generation of practitioners?Am I an idealist? So be it. On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 05:06 AM, Marco wrote:

Zev:One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living according to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet, exercise, and harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings of Chinese medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration in the teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic Institute in Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence.Marco: Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the interactive experience with the Ayerveda college?

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Dean. I'll try to answer in sequence.

 

1) I'd like to quote Zhang Xi-chun via Heiner Fruehauf's translation

from Yixue zhong zhong can xi lu to answer the first question about the

lifestyle of students and practitioners of CM. " We can only teach our

fellow human beings about how to protect their bodies if we are first

capable of protecting our own. The physician first thoroughly

understands the workings of his/her own qi transformations, and then

naturally becomes a teacher who is capable of instructing others how to

regulate their bodies' qi metabolism. " Or, as it says in the Talmud,

" one who does not take care of one's own health cannot take care of

another's health " .

 

2) Being a physician of Chinese medicine is different than being a

hairdresser or accountant. There is more demand on us, because we

utilize a highly trained sensory awareness to see changes in body

shape, color, odor, sound, heat and cold, dampness and dryness,

repletion and vacuity. The information from our senses is then

translated by the mind, using the logic of Chinese medicine to do

pattern discrimination and treatment strategy.

 

3) What is universal in spirituality is the need to be upright, honest,

clear of mind, compassionate, not stealing, killing or committing

adultery. Every tradition has codes of behavior, and every medical

tradition mentions these things. You can find them in the Ambrosia

Tantras of Tibetan medicine, the Charaka Samhita of Ayurveda, and in

such works as Sun Si-miao's Qian Jin Yao Fang in Chinese medicine. It

is also inherent in the Confucian tradition, which is one of the

backbones of Chinese medicine. I believe one can be 'secular' and

still cultivate these virtues. Neuroscientists and cognitive

scientists such as the Churchlands here at UCSD are secular scientists

who teach the need for codes of ethics. They suggest learning the

Aristotelean codes of ethics as a standard in conducting one's life.

 

4) From what I know of Dr. Vasant Lad, there is no coercion to study

Hinduism, but obviously religion is more of an apparent influence on

Ayurvedic medicine than Chinese medicine. This may have something to

do with the difference between Hindu and Confucian practices, which are

very 'down to earth' and logical in many respects. When I studied with

him years ago, he would do a simple chant to start his class, and

nothing more.

 

 

On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 12:44 PM, Dean Militello wrote:

 

> Thanks Z'ev,  this is the type of thread that I was hoping to

> establish with my recent response to the " invest in loss " thread. It

> seemed to fall on deaf ears. Perhaps people thought I was being

> sarcastic by asking about acupuncturists who aerobicise, I was a

> little.  But the query is real, and to my mind important.  

> What is the relationship between the way we " eat, sleep and live " , as

> you put it, and the practice of CM?

> My notion is that this may be difficult to discuss, because, of

> course,  we are a profession and not a religion.   But, is it a more

> important for this profession than perhaps that of accountants or

> hairdressers? 

> And what of religion?, clearly we are of many and varied traditions,

> but CM has been practiced by people of many religions for many

> centuries. What are the " universal aspects of spirituality that can be

> established " that you mention? 

> My bias is that it may be easier for a person coming from a particular

> tradition, like yourself,  to gleam the universal aspects that his or

> her tradition shares with another than someone who perceives

> themselves as coming from no tradition. any thoughts?

> You mention that " There is an emphasis on upright living and the

> practice of the Ayurvedic lifestyle among the students " . are

> students encouraged to study other aspects of Hinduism? 

> These are just a few thoughts and queries on what I consider to be a

> topic that has multiple and significant bearing on the present and

> future of CM,  outside and inside China.  I would appreciate your and

> others ideas on this.

> Dean

>  

>

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> Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:50 AM

> Re: Re: " key terms "

>

> Marco,

> I'll put it this way. When I was in Albuquerque, I stopped by an

> Ayurvedic restaurant (Annapurna) whose food was some of the highest

> quality I ever ate in a restaurant. I went from there to the Ayurvedic

> Institute, where I bought Dr. Vasant Lad's new textbook. The

> instruction there emphasizes the importance of constitutional types in

> treatment, daily lifestyle, diet, yoga, and has a special clinic for

> panchakarma treatment, a special comprehensive cleansing regimen.

> To quote their catalog (from the Charaka Samhita):

> " A wise person desiring to become a physician should first examine the

> system being taught, its authenticity, completeness and applicability.

> Thereafter, one should examine the teacher. The teacher should possess

> a deep understanding of the theoretical and practical aspects of the

> science, have extensive experience in practice, be skillful, friendly,

> pure, compassionate, fatherly to students, and capable of infusing

> understanding.

>

> Having decided, approached the teacher with respect and been accepted,

> a student should engage in study seriously; wake up early, finish

> morning routines and spiritual practices; pay respect to saints,

> sages, preceptors, elders, the teacher and all beings. The student

> should then make efforts to comprehend, clearly express, and discuss

> the knowledge by studying the information already acquired, entering

> deeply in contemplation in order to completely understand the meaning

> and the applications... "

>

> -Charaka Samhita, Vimanasthanam, Chapter Eight

>

>

> This has always been the traditional way. Students of traditional

> medicine were always asked to eat, sleep and live right in order to

> have clear minds and healthy bodies. Without this, it is more

> difficult to absorb and learn traditional forms of medicine. While I

> don't have a Hindu approach to life, (I am a practicing orthodox Jew),

> there are universal aspects of spirituality that can be established in

> an individual's life.

>

> What a contrast to American Chinese medicine schools, where students

> bring Burger King and diet cokes to class and eat while they study!

> There seems to be little interest in the students taking care of

> themselves, or any obligation to do so. When sick, many students use

> antibiotics or other biomedical treatment, without taking advantage of

> the tools of Chinese medicine. Chinese medicine is looked at simply as

> a profession involving acupuncture and maybe the use of herbs, without

> any adjustment to lifestyle among the majority of students.

>

> Partially this is because there has not been a systematic presentation

> of Chinese medical principles on constitutional typing, dietetics,

> exercise (qi gong), and the tao of medicine in daily life.

> Unfortunately, it is more difficult to get a good grasp on the

> medicine without this.

>

> After all, these subjects are not required to take the state boards!

>

> What are our priorities in the profession in producing the next

> generation of practitioners?

>

> Am I an idealist? So be it.

>

>

> On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 05:06 AM, Marco wrote:

>

> Zev:

> One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living

> according to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet,

> exercise, and harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the

> teachings of Chinese medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found

> inspiration in the teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the

> Ayurvedic Institute in Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of

> Western influence.

>

> Marco:

>  

> Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the

> interactive experience with the Ayerveda college?

>  

>

>

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>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks to you both Zev and Dean,

 

These topics really are important in the long run to develop and utilise the "advantages" of Chinese medicine and by the sound of it the "advantages" of Ayverdic medicine.

 

It really is food for thought and contemplative action.

 

 

What's more if it is possible to develop then it will be potentially more "easier" to animate the patients by instilling "confidence by example".

 

In sound to change once diets and do relevant exercise is "fairly easy", however in actual practice one comes across family, friends and girlfriend/boy friend etc. not to mentions once very own weakness (of projecting the resistance to change onto others...). And, like you said Zev most schools do not emphasise this aspect and or give it equal importance by making it compulsorily subject to pass amongst biochemistry and anatomy and erh...medical Chinese?

 

I my self am really lacking behind although had I not studied and studying Chinese medicine my habits would probably even worst.

 

However the letters has made me start rethinking how the Sunday class possibly could develop and aspect that we as a group have not yet spooked about.

 

I think there is one person genially interested but no one seams willing to study as in contemplating and trying to understand however it may also be question of language barrier and the art of teaching. Which then in a way comes back to parts of your letters that to "animate" the students one needs to be animated...

 

It has made me think only hope that I can improve.

 

However, there are complications and difficulties I have once mention:

 

 

Maybe more of a "existential" crises of what are our or rather mine obligations as someone whom purports to want to Practice Chinese medicine for the good of patients "to heal", and medical ethics, budistical, confunistical, Doaistical and the reality that does that needs Chinese medicine in Guatemala can not afford it.

 

Maybe some one could elaborate on the topic of ethics?

 

In another letter and warrant nil responses.

 

But maybe this time sense it is in a way interrelated...

 

I too am not religious or rather one may say orthodox non-religious but agree that part of human nature is spirituality(s).

 

 

Thanks again Zev and Dean for an interesting thread...

 

Another thing how can I get hold of writings by Heiner Fruehauf?

 

You know Zev there are so many things that I like to hear from you and others that I genualy hope that a green tea in a caffe somewhere in USA might come true one day (and Australia of couarse only its not on rute to Sweden...)

 

 

Marco Bergh

 

Ps. Rey have you had an opportunity to "catch" the missing four pages?

 

 

 

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Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:32 PM

Re: Re: "key terms"

Thank you, Dean. I'll try to answer in sequence.1) I'd like to quote Zhang Xi-chun via Heiner Fruehauf's translation from Yixue zhong zhong can xi lu to answer the first question about the lifestyle of students and practitioners of CM. " We can only teach our fellow human beings about how to protect their bodies if we are first capable of protecting our own. The physician first thoroughly understands the workings of his/her own qi transformations, and then naturally becomes a teacher who is capable of instructing others how to regulate their bodies' qi metabolism." Or, as it says in the Talmud, "one who does not take care of one's own health cannot take care of another's health".