Guest guest Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Dear Z'ev, I agree with you that the job of being a Chinese medicine physician is very demanding and different compared to being a hairdresser or an accountant. More significantly the job of being a physician of Chinese medicine is more different and more demanding than being a Western biomedical physician. The biomedical physician only has to read the patient's condition through their representations i.e. x-ray,bone scan,blood tests results, blood pressure instrument readings ; make their diagnosis (based on these representations ) , and then match their diagnosis with appropriate medication. While for us we have in many ways have to read the patient's condition and their sufferings face-to-face i.e. re-present them or 'embody' them. We have to listen to their complaints, observe their face colour, tongue; feel their pulse; sniff their healing scent. Subsequently, " using the " logic of Chinese medicine " (using your words Z'ev) sort out their clinical pattern and make a diagnosis .But the work does not stop here. We have to tailor a treatment to this patient and then subsequently using our Four Examination system as an evaluating tool ,work out how they responded to the treatment. In short, we have a set of values, or 'logic' or ethic which is very different indeed from the biomedical practitioner or the hairdresser, chiropractor, naturopath , beautician or even an Ayurvedic medical practitioner etc. And as CM practitioners, we embody these values. I refer to these set of values ,ethic , logic as the ethic of restoring balance which in the Chinese language is referred to as yi ping wei Qi. In terms of dealing with the patient or our students, or with the world around us including the natural world we live in, we hold on to this set of value of health-as-balance. Health-as-balance in terms of the imaginaries of Yin and Yang and Qi as well as the notion of a balanced and healthy person is encoded in the Yellow Emperor's Classic on Internal Medicine. In a dialogue between the Yellow Emperor and his Minister Qi Po , the former asked " " Where does the excess clinical pattern come from? Where does the the defficient clinical pattern lead to? Please explain the principle behind the emergence of excess and deficient clinical patterns ? " Qi Po replied: Both the Yang and the Yin acupuncture channels have respective acupuncture points through which they enter and meet. For example, the Qi and blood of the Yang acupuncture channels flow into the Yin acupuncture channels, while the Qi and blood of the Yin acupuncture channels flow outwards. In this way, the YIn and Yang are in a state of balance. This will fill up the body form while the nine segments of the pulse will all beat in harmony. This is what we refer to as a balanced (ping) person. " Di yue: Shi zhe he dao cong lai ? Xu zhe he dao cong qu? Xu shi zhi yao, yuan wen qi gu. Qi Po yue: Fu yin yu yang, jie you shu hui. Yang zhu yu yin, yin man zhi way, yin yang jun ping, yi chong qi xing, jiu hou ruo yi, ming yue ping ren. " [Gao shi Zong (Qing Dynasty)l980 Huang Di Su Wen Zhi Jie. The Yellow Emperor Plain Question Straight Commentary.Science Technology Literature Publishing House. Beijing ..pp409-410] In general terms, health is attained when balance is maintained between a strong well-nourished Zheng Qi ( YANG positive Qi or Medicatrix naturae as Joseph Needham calls it) and a relatively weak and undernoushed Xie Qi (YIN negative Qi) i.e. disease causing factors or 'heteropathy' ( as is referred to by Chao Y'uan Ling in his Phd dissertation Medicine and Society in Later Imperial China : A Study of Physicians in Soozhou,University of Californa Los Angeles,l995). However, when the overall Zheng Qi becomes undernourished and weakened while the Xie Qi becoems strong, balance is lost and imbalance occurs, illness , signs and symptoms of disease and clinical patterns emerge. The quote you made from Zhang Xi Chun is very good Z'ev. I think I found the relevant Chinese quote from his book on the segment on " The Physician Must do sitting in meditation (jing zuo zhi gong) in order to gain philosophical insight (sartori) " . It goes: " The physician is one entrusted with life. This person must be exceptionally clever and wise. At the same time he must be able to penetrate through the subtleties of the human body; observe the Qi transformations in Heaven and Earth, differentiate the vastness and depth of the materia medica, diagnose the clinical pattern, pick a formulae which corresponds with a pathological mechanism, and thus save a human life " " Yi zhe shengming suo tuo, bi qi ren juyou feichang zongming, er hou neng dong renshen zhi jingwei, ca tiandi zhi Qihua, bian yaowu zhi fanze, linzheng shufang shihe bingji, jiuren shengming. " (Zhang Xi Chun .Yi Xue Zhong Zhong Can Xi Lu (Middle Volume. p212) Hebei Science and Technology Publishing House, Hebei Rey Tiquia Phd Candidate Dept of History and Philosophy of Science The University of melbourne > " " <zrosenbe > >Re: Re: " key terms " >Wed, Sep 4, 2002, 6:32 AM > > Thank you, Dean. I'll try to answer in sequence. > > 1) I'd like to quote Zhang Xi-chun via Heiner Fruehauf's translation from > Yixue zhong zhong can xi lu to answer the first question about the > lifestyle of students and practitioners of CM. " We can only teach our > fellow human beings about how to protect their bodies if we are first > capable of protecting our own. The physician first thoroughly understands > the workings of his/her own qi transformations, and then naturally becomes > a teacher who is capable of instructing others how to regulate their > bodies' qi metabolism. " Or, as it says in the Talmud, " one who does not > take care of one's own health cannot take care of another's health " . > > 2) Being a physician of Chinese medicine is different than being a > hairdresser or accountant. There is more demand on us, because we utilize > a highly trained sensory awareness to see changes in body shape, color, > odor, sound, heat and cold, dampness and dryness, repletion and vacuity. > The information from our senses is then translated by the mind, using the > logic of Chinese medicine to do pattern discrimination and treatment strategy. > > 3) What is universal in spirituality is the need to be upright, honest, > clear of mind, compassionate, not stealing, killing or committing adultery. > Every tradition has codes of behavior, and every medical tradition > mentions these things. You can find them in the Ambrosia Tantras of > Tibetan medicine, the Charaka Samhita of Ayurveda, and in such works as Sun > Si-miao's Qian Jin Yao Fang in Chinese medicine. It is also inherent in > the Confucian tradition, which is one of the backbones of Chinese medicine. > I believe one can be 'secular' and still cultivate these virtues. > Neuroscientists and cognitive scientists such as the Churchlands here at > UCSD are secular scientists who teach the need for codes of ethics. They > suggest learning the Aristotelean codes of ethics as a standard in > conducting one's life. > > 4) From what I know of Dr. Vasant Lad, there is no coercion to study > Hinduism, but obviously religion is more of an apparent influence on > Ayurvedic medicine than Chinese medicine. This may have something to do > with the difference between Hindu and Confucian practices, which are very > 'down to earth' and logical in many respects. When I studied with him years > ago, he would do a simple chant to start his class, and nothing more. > > > On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 12:44 PM, Dean Militello wrote: > > Thanks Z'ev, this is the type of thread that I was hoping to establish > with my recent response to the " invest in loss " thread. It seemed to fall > on deaf ears. Perhaps people thought I was being sarcastic by asking about > acupuncturists who aerobicise, I was a little. But the query is real, and > to my mind important. > What is the relationship between the way we " eat, sleep and live " , as you > put it, and the practice of CM? > My notion is that this may be difficult to discuss, because, of course, we > are a profession and not a religion. But, is it a more important for this > profession than perhaps that of accountants or hairdressers? > And what of religion?, clearly we are of many and varied traditions, but > CM has been practiced by people of many religions for many centuries. What > are the " universal aspects of spirituality that can be established " that > you mention? > My bias is that it may be easier for a person coming from a particular > tradition, like yourself, to gleam the universal aspects that his or her > tradition shares with another than someone who perceives themselves as > coming from no tradition. any thoughts? > You mention that " There is an emphasis on upright living and the practice > of the Ayurvedic lifestyle among the students " . are students encouraged to > study other aspects of Hinduism? > These are just a few thoughts and queries on what I consider to be a topic > that has multiple and significant bearing on the present and future of > CM, outside and inside China. I would appreciate your and others ideas on this. > Dean > > > - > > > Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:50 AM > Re: Re: " key terms " > > Marco, > I'll put it this way. When I was in Albuquerque, I stopped by an Ayurvedic > restaurant (Annapurna) whose food was some of the highest quality I ever > ate in a restaurant. I went from there to the Ayurvedic Institute, where I > bought Dr. Vasant Lad's new textbook. The instruction there emphasizes the > importance of constitutional types in treatment, daily lifestyle, diet, > yoga, and has a special clinic for panchakarma treatment, a special > comprehensive cleansing regimen. > To quote their catalog (from the Charaka Samhita): > " A wise person desiring to become a physician should first examine the > system being taught, its authenticity, completeness and applicability. > Thereafter, one should examine the teacher. The teacher should possess a > deep understanding of the theoretical and practical aspects of the science, > have extensive experience in practice, be skillful, friendly, pure, > compassionate, fatherly to students, and capable of infusing understanding. > > Having decided, approached the teacher with respect and been accepted, a > student should engage in study seriously; wake up early, finish morning > routines and spiritual practices; pay respect to saints, sages, preceptors, > elders, the teacher and all beings. The student should then make efforts to > comprehend, clearly express, and discuss the knowledge by studying the > information already acquired, entering deeply in contemplation in order to > completely understand the meaning and the applications... " > > -Charaka Samhita, Vimanasthanam, Chapter Eight > > > This has always been the traditional way. Students of traditional medicine > were always asked to eat, sleep and live right in order to have clear minds > and healthy bodies. Without this, it is more difficult to absorb and learn > traditional forms of medicine. While I don't have a Hindu approach to life, > (I am a practicing orthodox Jew), there are universal aspects of > spirituality that can be established in an individual's life. > > What a contrast to American Chinese medicine schools, where students bring > Burger King and diet cokes to class and eat while they study! There seems > to be little interest in the students taking care of themselves, or any > obligation to do so. When sick, many students use antibiotics or other > biomedical treatment, without taking advantage of the tools of Chinese > medicine. Chinese medicine is looked at simply as a profession involving > acupuncture and maybe the use of herbs, without any adjustment to lifestyle > among the majority of students. > > Partially this is because there has not been a systematic presentation of > Chinese medical principles on constitutional typing, dietetics, exercise > (qi gong), and the tao of medicine in daily life. Unfortunately, it is more > difficult to get a good grasp on the medicine without this. > > After all, these subjects are not required to take the state boards! > > What are our priorities in the profession in producing the next generation > of practitioners? > > Am I an idealist? So be it. > > > On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 05:06 AM, Marco wrote: > > Zev: > One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living according > to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet, exercise, and > harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings of Chinese > medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration in the > teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic Institute in > Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence. > > Marco: > > Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the > interactive experience with the Ayerveda college? > > > > <image.tiff> > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics > specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional > services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Rey, I agree with your overall assesment on the unique and special skills required of the competent TCM practitioner. However, there is one recurrent theme I have noticed among the TCM community which I find troubling. This is the constant hostility directed against Western medical doctors. There are few who would not agree much of this hostility may be warranted. Nevertheless, they perform a job which is more often than not both physicaly and mentally grueling. It is not uncommon, in fact it is often the norm, for interns to work up to 30 hour plus shifts. As far as being alienated from their patients, try telling this to the intern who has to mechanically remove impacted feces from an elderly patient. Ironically, and I don't mean to be antedotal, I have found the Western medical community more open-minded than many TCM practitioners! This may be partly due to an insecurity among our own profession. This is a shame considering what we have to offer. Overall, I have always felt when an individual, or a group, makes negative generalizations towards the percieved 'competition' it tends to do more harm than good. Villifying western doctors and their inadequacies is not necessary. Afterall, they have already done a good job of this on their own:) Greyson Ross ---- Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:19:33 AM Cc: hrv Re: TCM Logic,Values,Ethic Dear Z'ev,I agree with you that the job of being a Chinese medicine physician is verydemanding and different compared to being a hairdresser or an accountant.More significantly the job of being a physician of Chinese medicine is moredifferent and more demanding than being a Western biomedical physician. Thebiomedical physician only has to read the patient's condition throughtheir representations i.e. x-ray,bone scan,blood tests results, bloodpressure instrument readings ; make their diagnosis (based on theserepresentations ) , and then match their diagnosis with appropriatemedication. While for us we have in many ways have to read the patient'scondition and their sufferings face-to-face i.e. re-present them or 'embody'them. We have to listen to their complaints, observe their face colour,tongue; feel their pulse; sniff their healing scent. Subsequently, " usingthe "logic of Chinese medicine" (using your words Z'ev) sort out theirclinical pattern and make a diagnosis .But the work does not stop here. Wehave to tailor a treatment to this patient and then subsequently using ourFour Examination system as an evaluating tool ,work out how they respondedto the treatment.In short, we have a set of values, or 'logic' or ethic which is verydifferent indeed from the biomedical practitioner or the hairdresser,chiropractor, naturopath , beautician or even an Ayurvedic medicalpractitioner etc. And as CM practitioners, we embody these values. I referto these set of values ,ethic , logic as the ethic of restoring balancewhich in the Chinese language is referred to as yi ping wei Qi. In terms ofdealing with the patient or our students, or with the world around usincluding the natural world we live in, we hold on to this set of value ofhealth-as-balance.Health-as-balance in terms of the imaginaries of Yin and Yang and Qi as wellas the notion of a balanced and healthy person is encoded in the YellowEmperor's Classic on Internal Medicine. In a dialogue between the YellowEmperor and his Minister Qi Po , the former asked" "Where does the excess clinical pattern come from? Where does the the defficient clinical pattern lead to? Please explain the principle behind the emergence of excess and deficient clinical patterns ? " Qi Po replied: Both the Yang and the Yin acupuncture channels have respective acupuncture points through which they enter and meet. For example, the Qi and blood of the Yang acupuncture channels flow into the Yin acupuncture channels, while the Qi and blood of the Yin acupuncture channels flow outwards. In this way, the YIn and Yang are in a state of balance. This will fill up the body form while the nine segments of the pulse will all beat in harmony. This is what we refer to as a balanced (ping) person." Di yue: Shi zhe he dao cong lai ? Xu zhe he dao cong qu? Xu shi zhi yao, yuan wen qi gu. Qi Po yue: Fu yin yu yang, jie you shu hui. Yang zhu yu yin, yin man zhi way, yin yang jun ping, yi chong qi xing, jiu hou ruo yi, ming yue ping ren." [Gao shi Zong (Qing Dynasty)l980Huang Di Su Wen Zhi Jie. The Yellow Emperor Plain Question StraightCommentary.Science Technology Literature Publishing House. Beijing.pp409-410]In general terms, health is attained when balance is maintained between astrong well-nourished Zheng Qi ( YANG positive Qi or Medicatrix naturae asJoseph Needham calls it) and a relatively weak and undernoushed Xie Qi (YINnegative Qi) i.e. disease causing factors or 'heteropathy' ( as is referredto by Chao Y'uan Ling in his Phd dissertation Medicine and Society in LaterImperial China : A Study of Physicians in Soozhou,University of CalifornaLos Angeles,l995). However, when the overall Zheng Qi becomes undernourishedand weakened while the Xie Qi becoems strong, balance is lost and imbalanceoccurs, illness , signs and symptoms of disease and clinical patternsemerge. The quote you made from Zhang Xi Chun is very good Z'ev. I think I foundthe relevant Chinese quote from his book on the segment on "The PhysicianMust do sitting in meditation (jing zuo zhi gong) in order to gainphilosophical insight (sartori) ". It goes: "The physician is one entrusted with life. This person must beexceptionally clever and wise. At the same time he must be able to penetratethrough the subtleties of the human body; observe the Qi transformations inHeaven and Earth, differentiate the vastness and depth of the materiamedica, diagnose the clinical pattern, pick a formulae which correspondswith a pathological mechanism, and thus save a human life"" Yi zhe shengming suo tuo, bi qi ren juyou feichang zongming, er hou nengdong renshen zhi jingwei, ca tiandi zhi Qihua, bian yaowu zhi fanze,linzheng shufang shihe bingji, jiuren shengming." (Zhang Xi Chun .Yi XueZhong Zhong Can Xi Lu (Middle Volume. p212) Hebei Science and TechnologyPublishing House, HebeiRey TiquiaPhd CandidateDept of History and Philosophy of ScienceThe University of melbourne>"" <zrosenbe> >Re: Re: "key terms">Wed, Sep 4, 2002, 6:32 AM>> Thank you, Dean. I'll try to answer in sequence.>> 1) I'd like to quote Zhang Xi-chun via Heiner Fruehauf's translation from> Yixue zhong zhong can xi lu to answer the first question about the> lifestyle of students and practitioners of CM. " We can only teach our> fellow human beings about how to protect their bodies if we are first> capable of protecting our own. The physician first thoroughly understands> the workings of his/her own qi transformations, and then naturally becomes> a teacher who is capable of instructing others how to regulate their> bodies' qi metabolism." Or, as it says in the Talmud, "one who does not> take care of one's own health cannot take care of another's health".>> 2) Being a physician of Chinese medicine is different than being a> hairdresser or accountant. There is more demand on us, because we utilize> a highly trained sensory awareness to see changes in body shape, color,> odor, sound, heat and cold, dampness and dryness, repletion and vacuity.> The information from our senses is then translated by the mind, using the> logic of Chinese medicine to do pattern discrimination and treatment strategy.>> 3) What is universal in spirituality is the need to be upright, honest,> clear of mind, compassionate, not stealing, killing or committing adultery.> Every tradition has codes of behavior, and every medical tradition> mentions these things. You can find them in the Ambrosia Tantras of> Tibetan medicine, the Charaka Samhita of Ayurveda, and in such works as Sun> Si-miao's Qian Jin Yao Fang in Chinese medicine. It is also inherent in> the Confucian tradition, which is one of the backbones of Chinese medicine.> I believe one can be 'secular' and still cultivate these virtues.> Neuroscientists and cognitive scientists such as the Churchlands here at> UCSD are secular scientists who teach the need for codes of ethics. They> suggest learning the Aristotelean codes of ethics as a standard in> conducting one's life.>> 4) From what I know of Dr. Vasant Lad, there is no coercion to study> Hinduism, but obviously religion is more of an apparent influence on> Ayurvedic medicine than Chinese medicine. This may have something to do> with the difference between Hindu and Confucian practices, which are very> 'down to earth' and logical in many respects. When I studied with him years> ago, he would do a simple chant to start his class, and nothing more.>> > On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 12:44 PM, Dean Militello wrote:>> Thanks Z'ev, this is the type of thread that I was hoping to establish> with my recent response to the "invest in loss" thread. It seemed to fall> on deaf ears. Perhaps people thought I was being sarcastic by asking about> acupuncturists who aerobicise, I was a little. But the query is real, and> to my mind important. > What is the relationship between the way we "eat, sleep and live", as you> put it, and the practice of CM?> My notion is that this may be difficult to discuss, because, of course, we> are a profession and not a religion. But, is it a more important for this> profession than perhaps that of accountants or hairdressers? > And what of religion?, clearly we are of many and varied traditions, but> CM has been practiced by people of many religions for many centuries. What> are the "universal aspects of spirituality that can be established" that> you mention? > My bias is that it may be easier for a person coming from a particular> tradition, like yourself, to gleam the universal aspects that his or her> tradition shares with another than someone who perceives themselves as> coming from no tradition. any thoughts?> You mention that "There is an emphasis on upright living and the practice> of the Ayurvedic lifestyle among the students". are students encouraged to> study other aspects of Hinduism? > These are just a few thoughts and queries on what I consider to be a topic> that has multiple and significant bearing on the present and future of> CM, outside and inside China. I would appreciate your and others ideas onthis.> Dean> >> -> > > Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:50 AM> Re: Re: "key terms">> Marco,> I'll put it this way. When I was in Albuquerque, I stopped by an Ayurvedic> restaurant (Annapurna) whose food was some of the highest quality I ever> ate in a restaurant. I went from there to the Ayurvedic Institute, where I> bought Dr. Vasant Lad's new textbook. The instruction there emphasizes the> importance of constitutional types in treatment, daily lifestyle, diet,> yoga, and has a special clinic for panchakarma treatment, a special> comprehensive cleansing regimen.> To quote their catalog (from the Charaka Samhita):> "A wise person desiring to become a physician should first examine the> system being taught, its authenticity, completeness and applicability.> Thereafter, one should examine the teacher. The teacher should possess a> deep understanding of the theoretical and practical aspects of the science,> have extensive experience in practice, be skillful, friendly, pure,> compassionate, fatherly to students, and capable of infusing understanding.>> Having decided, approached the teacher with respect and been accepted, a> student should engage in study seriously; wake up early, finish morning> routines and spiritual practices; pay respect to saints, sages, preceptors,> elders, the teacher and all beings. The student should then make efforts to> comprehend, clearly express, and discuss the knowledge by studying the> information already acquired, entering deeply in contemplation in order to> completely understand the meaning and the applications...">> -Charaka Samhita, Vimanasthanam, Chapter Eight>>> This has always been the traditional way. Students of traditional medicine> were always asked to eat, sleep and live right in order to have clear minds> and healthy bodies. Without this, it is more difficult to absorb and learn> traditional forms of medicine. While I don't have a Hindu approach to life,> (I am a practicing orthodox Jew), there are universal aspects of> spirituality that can be established in an individual's life.>> What a contrast to American Chinese medicine schools, where students bring> Burger King and diet cokes to class and eat while they study! There seems> to be little interest in the students taking care of themselves, or any> obligation to do so. When sick, many students use antibiotics or other> biomedical treatment, without taking advantage of the tools of Chinese> medicine. Chinese medicine is looked at simply as a profession involving> acupuncture and maybe the use of herbs, without any adjustment to lifestyle> among the majority of students.>> Partially this is because there has not been a systematic presentation of> Chinese medical principles on constitutional typing, dietetics, exercise> (qi gong), and the tao of medicine in daily life. Unfortunately, it is more> difficult to get a good grasp on the medicine without this.>> After all, these subjects are not required to take the state boards!>> What are our priorities in the profession in producing the next generation> of practitioners?>> Am I an idealist? So be it.>> > On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 05:06 AM, Marco wrote:>> Zev:> One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living according> to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet, exercise, and> harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings of Chinese> medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration in the> teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic Institute in> Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence.>> Marco:> > Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the> interactive experience with the Ayerveda college?> >>> <image.tiff>>>> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional> services, including board approved online continuing education.>> http://www..org>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Dear Rey and Zev... I for one am benefiting from your letters and will try to change the small "classes" that we have here... As the profession develops it would be interesting to see how "these" values transform or form. However let me ask my question differently: Can any one comment on the differences between say, Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism all related to values. Values that are related to the physician and values that are "held" by the physician but related to the practice-patients. This surley must have bean a "hot" topic from time to time...now as then in Chinese medical history... We know for example that Chinese medicine as a living entity has never made a clear cut between "folk medicine" and Scholar-practitioner medicine (as far as I am aware). This is interesting in the light of probability spread of Chinese medicine to other countries that already have an Indigenous medical paradigm, because one possibility is that the "clash" will be more on a polemic level as opposed to pure dogmatically level (western medicine and the epistemology of "one truth", albeit changing...)... Wrote a long letter but as always started to divert "too" much... By the way I presume that most people if not all would consider TCM practitioner as something different from say a hairdresser, but many people would also at the same time think it very much the same as a western doctor and or a Ayervedic physician. depending on concept about "alternative" and or "integrated". In a way what is the Identety of Chinese mdeicne practitioner? Marco Bergh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Dear Rey, Thanks for your wonderful commentary. It sounds like you have a vast library of sources texts on Chinese medicine at your disposal. Our heads seem to be in the same place. . . I just wish I had more Chinese literature available to me. On Wednesday, September 4, 2002, at 12:19 AM, rey tiquia wrote: > Dear Z'ev, > > I agree with you that the job of being a Chinese medicine physician is > very > demanding and different compared to being a hairdresser or an > accountant. > More significantly the job of being a physician of Chinese medicine > is more > different and more demanding than being a Western biomedical physician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 Dear Greyson, It is unfortunate that at times a medium such as this list have there restriction... I agree with you, most of the time it may mainly be to compare and contrast and emphasise a "point" (rightly or wrongly...or most of the time as always a question of degrees) that they as medical paradigms are different, one is not necessarily better then the other or rather: The advantages of ANY discipline is also its disadvantages... I also suspect that in this respect many western doctors (but not all)are more open minded in USA then say Guatemala because they have one better overall education not just related to Western medicine per se. Two many reasons that I wont go into here sense most of the time my letters do not generate any response anyway... This may be a sample (symbolic) of "self regulation" in a community of "share ideology-theory-praxis...." However that is also for another day and probably best elaborated by those whom say a lot in few words rather then I, who say little in a lot of words... I also agree with Rye's letter, I for one have "courtship" a western doctor, rather she happen to be a western doctor and at one stage was a patient receiving acumoxa. We are in the process of creating a small "shiatsu" - massage course. Of which the long term aims are: To develop people whom apart from applying a certain practice are reflective, capable of having a "dialogue" between East-West (and in Guatemala Indigenous medicine, although that is also another letter:), as well creating a space for a network of various medical-theruphuetical practioners, hence referrals and simultaneous approach to the treatment options "avalible" to the patients (like a pro-active patient or person whom happen to be ill have mostly function anyway...) Marco - Greyson Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:13 AM Re: Re: TCM Logic,Values,Ethic Rey, I agree with your overall assesment on the unique and special skills required of the competent TCM practitioner. However, there is one recurrent theme I have noticed among the TCM community which I find troubling. This is the constant hostility directed against Western medical doctors. There are few who would not agree much of this hostility may be warranted. Nevertheless, they perform a job which is more often than not both physicaly and mentally grueling. It is not uncommon, in fact it is often the norm, for interns to work up to 30 hour plus shifts. As far as being alienated from their patients, try telling this to the intern who has to mechanically remove impacted feces from an elderly patient. Ironically, and I don't mean to be antedotal, I have found the Western medical community more open-minded than many TCM practitioners! This may be partly due to an insecurity among our own profession. This is a shame considering what we have to offer. Overall, I have always felt when an individual, or a group, makes negative generalizations towards the percieved 'competition' it tends to do more harm than good. Villifying western doctors and their inadequacies is not necessary. Afterall, they have already done a good job of this on their own:) Greyson Ross ---- Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:19:33 AM Cc: hrv Re: TCM Logic,Values,Ethic Dear Z'ev,I agree with you that the job of being a Chinese medicine physician is verydemanding and different compared to being a hairdresser or an accountant.More significantly the job of being a physician of Chinese medicine is moredifferent and more demanding than being a Western biomedical physician. Thebiomedical physician only has to read the patient's condition throughtheir representations i.e. x-ray,bone scan,blood tests results, bloodpressure instrument readings ; make their diagnosis (based on theserepresentations ) , and then match their diagnosis with appropriatemedication. While for us we have in many ways have to read the patient'scondition and their sufferings face-to-face i.e. re-present them or 'embody'them. We have to listen to their complaints, observe their face colour,tongue; feel their pulse; sniff their healing scent. Subsequently, " usingthe "logic of Chinese medicine" (using your words Z'ev) sort out theirclinical pattern and make a diagnosis .But the work does not stop here. Wehave to tailor a treatment to this patient and then subsequently using ourFour Examination system as an evaluating tool ,work out how they respondedto the treatment.In short, we have a set of values, or 'logic' or ethic which is verydifferent indeed from the biomedical practitioner or the hairdresser,chiropractor, naturopath , beautician or even an Ayurvedic medicalpractitioner etc. And as CM practitioners, we embody these values. I referto these set of values ,ethic , logic as the ethic of restoring balancewhich in the Chinese language is referred to as yi ping wei Qi. In terms ofdealing with the patient or our students, or with the world around usincluding the natural world we live in, we hold on to this set of value ofhealth-as-balance.Health-as-balance in terms of the imaginaries of Yin and Yang and Qi as wellas the notion of a balanced and healthy person is encoded in the YellowEmperor's Classic on Internal Medicine. In a dialogue between the YellowEmperor and his Minister Qi Po , the former asked" "Where does the excess clinical pattern come from? Where does the the defficient clinical pattern lead to? Please explain the principle behind the emergence of excess and deficient clinical patterns ? " Qi Po replied: Both the Yang and the Yin acupuncture channels have respective acupuncture points through which they enter and meet. For example, the Qi and blood of the Yang acupuncture channels flow into the Yin acupuncture channels, while the Qi and blood of the Yin acupuncture channels flow outwards. In this way, the YIn and Yang are in a state of balance. This will fill up the body form while the nine segments of the pulse will all beat in harmony. This is what we refer to as a balanced (ping) person." Di yue: Shi zhe he dao cong lai ? Xu zhe he dao cong qu? Xu shi zhi yao, yuan wen qi gu. Qi Po yue: Fu yin yu yang, jie you shu hui. Yang zhu yu yin, yin man zhi way, yin yang jun ping, yi chong qi xing, jiu hou ruo yi, ming yue ping ren." [Gao shi Zong (Qing Dynasty)l980Huang Di Su Wen Zhi Jie. The Yellow Emperor Plain Question StraightCommentary.Science Technology Literature Publishing House. Beijing.pp409-410]In general terms, health is attained when balance is maintained between astrong well-nourished Zheng Qi ( YANG positive Qi or Medicatrix naturae asJoseph Needham calls it) and a relatively weak and undernoushed Xie Qi (YINnegative Qi) i.e. disease causing factors or 'heteropathy' ( as is referredto by Chao Y'uan Ling in his Phd dissertation Medicine and Society in LaterImperial China : A Study of Physicians in Soozhou,University of CalifornaLos Angeles,l995). However, when the overall Zheng Qi becomes undernourishedand weakened while the Xie Qi becoems strong, balance is lost and imbalanceoccurs, illness , signs and symptoms of disease and clinical patternsemerge. The quote you made from Zhang Xi Chun is very good Z'ev. I think I foundthe relevant Chinese quote from his book on the segment on "The PhysicianMust do sitting in meditation (jing zuo zhi gong) in order to gainphilosophical insight (sartori) ". It goes: "The physician is one entrusted with life. This person must beexceptionally clever and wise. At the same time he must be able to penetratethrough the subtleties of the human body; observe the Qi transformations inHeaven and Earth, differentiate the vastness and depth of the materiamedica, diagnose the clinical pattern, pick a formulae which correspondswith a pathological mechanism, and thus save a human life"" Yi zhe shengming suo tuo, bi qi ren juyou feichang zongming, er hou nengdong renshen zhi jingwei, ca tiandi zhi Qihua, bian yaowu zhi fanze,linzheng shufang shihe bingji, jiuren shengming." (Zhang Xi Chun .Yi XueZhong Zhong Can Xi Lu (Middle Volume. p212) Hebei Science and TechnologyPublishing House, HebeiRey TiquiaPhd CandidateDept of History and Philosophy of ScienceThe University of melbourne>"" <zrosenbe> >Re: Re: "key terms">Wed, Sep 4, 2002, 6:32 AM>> Thank you, Dean. I'll try to answer in sequence.>> 1) I'd like to quote Zhang Xi-chun via Heiner Fruehauf's translation from> Yixue zhong zhong can xi lu to answer the first question about the> lifestyle of students and practitioners of CM. " We can only teach our> fellow human beings about how to protect their bodies if we are first> capable of protecting our own. The physician first thoroughly understands> the workings of his/her own qi transformations, and then naturally becomes> a teacher who is capable of instructing others how to regulate their> bodies' qi metabolism." Or, as it says in the Talmud, "one who does not> take care of one's own health cannot take care of another's health".>> 2) Being a physician of Chinese medicine is different than being a> hairdresser or accountant. There is more demand on us, because we utilize> a highly trained sensory awareness to see changes in body shape, color,> odor, sound, heat and cold, dampness and dryness, repletion and vacuity.> The information from our senses is then translated by the mind, using the> logic of Chinese medicine to do pattern discrimination and treatment strategy.>> 3) What is universal in spirituality is the need to be upright, honest,> clear of mind, compassionate, not stealing, killing or committing adultery.> Every tradition has codes of behavior, and every medical tradition> mentions these things. You can find them in the Ambrosia Tantras of> Tibetan medicine, the Charaka Samhita of Ayurveda, and in such works as Sun> Si-miao's Qian Jin Yao Fang in Chinese medicine. It is also inherent in> the Confucian tradition, which is one of the backbones of Chinese medicine.> I believe one can be 'secular' and still cultivate these virtues.> Neuroscientists and cognitive scientists such as the Churchlands here at> UCSD are secular scientists who teach the need for codes of ethics. They> suggest learning the Aristotelean codes of ethics as a standard in> conducting one's life.>> 4) From what I know of Dr. Vasant Lad, there is no coercion to study> Hinduism, but obviously religion is more of an apparent influence on> Ayurvedic medicine than Chinese medicine. This may have something to do> with the difference between Hindu and Confucian practices, which are very> 'down to earth' and logical in many respects. When I studied with him years> ago, he would do a simple chant to start his class, and nothing more.>> > On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 12:44 PM, Dean Militello wrote:>> Thanks Z'ev, this is the type of thread that I was hoping to establish> with my recent response to the "invest in loss" thread. It seemed to fall> on deaf ears. Perhaps people thought I was being sarcastic by asking about> acupuncturists who aerobicise, I was a little. But the query is real, and> to my mind important. > What is the relationship between the way we "eat, sleep and live", as you> put it, and the practice of CM?> My notion is that this may be difficult to discuss, because, of course, we> are a profession and not a religion. But, is it a more important for this> profession than perhaps that of accountants or hairdressers? > And what of religion?, clearly we are of many and varied traditions, but> CM has been practiced by people of many religions for many centuries. What> are the "universal aspects of spirituality that can be established" that> you mention? > My bias is that it may be easier for a person coming from a particular> tradition, like yourself, to gleam the universal aspects that his or her> tradition shares with another than someone who perceives themselves as> coming from no tradition. any thoughts?> You mention that "There is an emphasis on upright living and the practice> of the Ayurvedic lifestyle among the students". are students encouraged to> study other aspects of Hinduism? > These are just a few thoughts and queries on what I consider to be a topic> that has multiple and significant bearing on the present and future of> CM, outside and inside China. I would appreciate your and others ideas onthis.> Dean> >> -> > > Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:50 AM> Re: Re: "key terms">> Marco,> I'll put it this way. When I was in Albuquerque, I stopped by an Ayurvedic> restaurant (Annapurna) whose food was some of the highest quality I ever> ate in a restaurant. I went from there to the Ayurvedic Institute, where I> bought Dr. Vasant Lad's new textbook. The instruction there emphasizes the> importance of constitutional types in treatment, daily lifestyle, diet,> yoga, and has a special clinic for panchakarma treatment, a special> comprehensive cleansing regimen.> To quote their catalog (from the Charaka Samhita):> "A wise person desiring to become a physician should first examine the> system being taught, its authenticity, completeness and applicability.> Thereafter, one should examine the teacher. The teacher should possess a> deep understanding of the theoretical and practical aspects of the science,> have extensive experience in practice, be skillful, friendly, pure,> compassionate, fatherly to students, and capable of infusing understanding.>> Having decided, approached the teacher with respect and been accepted, a> student should engage in study seriously; wake up early, finish morning> routines and spiritual practices; pay respect to saints, sages, preceptors,> elders, the teacher and all beings. The student should then make efforts to> comprehend, clearly express, and discuss the knowledge by studying the> information already acquired, entering deeply in contemplation in order to> completely understand the meaning and the applications...">> -Charaka Samhita, Vimanasthanam, Chapter Eight>>> This has always been the traditional way. Students of traditional medicine> were always asked to eat, sleep and live right in order to have clear minds> and healthy bodies. Without this, it is more difficult to absorb and learn> traditional forms of medicine. While I don't have a Hindu approach to life,> (I am a practicing orthodox Jew), there are universal aspects of> spirituality that can be established in an individual's life.>> What a contrast to American Chinese medicine schools, where students bring> Burger King and diet cokes to class and eat while they study! There seems> to be little interest in the students taking care of themselves, or any> obligation to do so. When sick, many students use antibiotics or other> biomedical treatment, without taking advantage of the tools of Chinese> medicine. Chinese medicine is looked at simply as a profession involving> acupuncture and maybe the use of herbs, without any adjustment to lifestyle> among the majority of students.>> Partially this is because there has not been a systematic presentation of> Chinese medical principles on constitutional typing, dietetics, exercise> (qi gong), and the tao of medicine in daily life. Unfortunately, it is more> difficult to get a good grasp on the medicine without this.>> After all, these subjects are not required to take the state boards!>> What are our priorities in the profession in producing the next generation> of practitioners?>> Am I an idealist? So be it.>> > On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 05:06 AM, Marco wrote:>> Zev:> One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living according> to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet, exercise, and> harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings of Chinese> medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration in the> teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic Institute in> Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence.>> Marco:> > Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the> interactive experience with the Ayerveda college?> >>> <image.tiff>>>> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional> services, including board approved online continuing education.>> http://www..org>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 Dear Rey and Zev, Zev: Dear Rey,Thanks for your wonderful commentary. It sounds like you have a vast library of sources texts on Chinese medicine at your disposal. Our heads seem to be in the same place. . . I just wish I had more Chinese literature available to me. Marco: Me to:) and Korean, Vietnamese... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 Greyson wrote: As far as being alienated from their patients, try telling this to the intern who has to mechanically remove impacted feces from an elderly patient. Julie queries: I thought nurses did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 , Julie Chambers <info@j...> wrote: Julie: In the internship year, newly minted doctors in addition to working lots of hours, and managing lots of patients, " get to " draw blood, stain slides, place big IV's, do all the basics so we understand how things work. And oh yes, many fond memories of disimpaction. True, nurses, or nowadays nursing assistants or nurses aides usually do disimpactions, but interns and medical students are considered fair game by experienced nurses for " important clinical exposures " Olfactoraly yours, Sam Sam Sencil D.O. > Greyson wrote: > > As far as being alienated from their patients, try telling this to the intern who has to mechanically remove impacted feces from an elderly patient. > > Julie queries: > > I thought nurses did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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