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Sept.5,2002 9:00 pm

Melbourne, Australia

 

Dear Greyson,

 

I think you may be right about this perception of'hostility' coming from some isolated quarters within the TCM community . And probably there may be some historical roots to this . However, I stress the point that there are no valid justifications for this attitude.

 

I agree with you that this 'hostility' is not healthy. As you mentioned ,this negativity brings imbalance not only to the person who projects it but more importantly to the person it is directed against . In addition, this negativity circulates far and wide which In the end 'fractures' the 'wholiness' of the entire healing and medical profession.

 

I think practical measures must be made to redress this imbalance. I am only speaking for myself when I propose this. I believe attempts must be made by practitioners of various traditions of healthcare i.e. TCM and biomedical practitoners to open some form of 'dialogue' with each other. The aim is to promote understanding between and among each other. A sort of 'medical ecumenalism' that the late Joseph Needham envisioned in one of his writings.

 

Our profession in many ways is just in its infancy in the West. We are still learning how to walk and literally speaking, we are just learning to speak the TCM language. Hence sometimes out of our own professional and cultural bias, we may make postings which may be construed as negative. But the main thing is to learn from this communication 'breakdown' and eventually know how to relate to other healthcare professionals and in the process also learn how to 'speak their language' as well and be good transmedical ecumenical communicators.

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

Chairperson

Alliance of Associations of Australia

 

 

 

 

----------

" Greyson " <greysonross

 

Re: Re: TCM Logic,Values,Ethic

Wed, Sep 4, 2002, 7:13 PM

 

 

Rey,

 

I agree with your overall assesment on the unique and special skills

required of the competent TCM practitioner. However, there is one recurrent

theme I have noticed among the TCM community which I find troubling. This

is the constant hostility directed against Western medical doctors. There

are few who would not agree much of this hostility may be warranted.

Nevertheless, they perform a job which is more often than not both physicaly

and mentally grueling. It is not uncommon, in fact it is often the norm,

for interns to work up to 30 hour plus shifts. As far as being alienated

from their patients, try telling this to the intern who has to mechanically

remove impacted feces from an elderly patient.

 

Ironically, and I don't mean to be antedotal, I have found the Western

medical community more open-minded than many TCM practitioners! This may be

partly due to an insecurity among our own profession. This is a shame

considering what we have to offer. Overall, I have always felt when an

individual, or a group, makes negative generalizations towards the percieved

'competition' it tends to do more harm than good. Villifying western

doctors and their inadequacies is not necessary. Afterall, they have

already done a good job of this on their own:)

 

Greyson Ross

 

 

 

 

----

 

 

 

 

 

Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:19:33 AM

 

 

 

Cc: hrv

 

Re: TCM Logic,Values,Ethic

 

 

 

Dear Z'ev,

 

 

 

I agree with you that the job of being a Chinese medicine physician is very

 

demanding and different compared to being a hairdresser or an accountant.

 

More significantly the job of being a physician of Chinese medicine is more

 

different and more demanding than being a Western biomedical physician. The

 

biomedical physician only has to read the patient's condition through

 

their representations i.e. x-ray,bone scan,blood tests results, blood

 

pressure instrument readings ; make their diagnosis (based on these

 

representations ) , and then match their diagnosis with appropriate

 

medication. While for us we have in many ways have to read the patient's

 

condition and their sufferings face-to-face i.e. re-present them or 'embody'

 

them. We have to listen to their complaints, observe their face colour,

 

tongue; feel their pulse; sniff their healing scent. Subsequently, " using

 

the " logic of Chinese medicine " (using your words Z'ev) sort out their

 

clinical pattern and make a diagnosis .But the work does not stop here. We

 

have to tailor a treatment to this patient and then subsequently using our

 

Four Examination system as an evaluating tool ,work out how they responded

 

to the treatment.

 

 

 

In short, we have a set of values, or 'logic' or ethic which is very

 

different indeed from the biomedical practitioner or the hairdresser,

 

chiropractor, naturopath , beautician or even an Ayurvedic medical

 

practitioner etc. And as CM practitioners, we embody these values. I refer

 

to these set of values ,ethic , logic as the ethic of restoring balance

 

which in the Chinese language is referred to as yi ping wei Qi. In terms of

 

dealing with the patient or our students, or with the world around us

 

including the natural world we live in, we hold on to this set of value of

 

health-as-balance.

 

 

 

Health-as-balance in terms of the imaginaries of Yin and Yang and Qi as well

 

as the notion of a balanced and healthy person is encoded in the Yellow

 

Emperor's Classic on Internal Medicine. In a dialogue between the Yellow

 

Emperor and his Minister Qi Po , the former asked "

 

 

 

" Where does the excess clinical pattern come from? Where does the

 

the defficient clinical pattern lead to? Please explain the principle

 

behind the emergence of excess and deficient clinical patterns ? "

 

 

 

Qi Po replied: Both the Yang and the Yin acupuncture channels have

 

respective acupuncture points through which they enter and meet.

 

For example, the Qi and blood of the Yang acupuncture channels flow

 

into the Yin acupuncture channels, while the Qi and blood of the Yin

 

acupuncture channels flow outwards. In this way, the YIn and Yang are

 

in a state of balance. This will fill up the body form while the nine

 

segments of the pulse will all beat in harmony. This is what we refer

 

to as a balanced (ping) person. "

 

 

 

Di yue: Shi zhe he dao cong lai ? Xu zhe he dao cong qu?

 

Xu shi zhi yao, yuan wen qi gu.

 

Qi Po yue: Fu yin yu yang, jie you shu hui. Yang zhu yu yin,

 

yin man zhi way, yin yang jun ping, yi chong qi xing,

 

jiu hou ruo yi, ming yue ping ren. " [Gao shi Zong (Qing Dynasty)l980

 

Huang Di Su Wen Zhi Jie. The Yellow Emperor Plain Question Straight

 

Commentary.Science Technology Literature Publishing House. Beijing

 

..pp409-410]

 

 

 

In general terms, health is attained when balance is maintained between a

 

strong well-nourished Zheng Qi ( YANG positive Qi or Medicatrix naturae as

 

Joseph Needham calls it) and a relatively weak and undernoushed Xie Qi (YIN

 

negative Qi) i.e. disease causing factors or 'heteropathy' ( as is referred

 

to by Chao Y'uan Ling in his Phd dissertation Medicine and Society in Later

 

Imperial China : A Study of Physicians in Soozhou,University of Californa

 

Los Angeles,l995). However, when the overall Zheng Qi becomes undernourished

 

and weakened while the Xie Qi becoems strong, balance is lost and imbalance

 

occurs, illness , signs and symptoms of disease and clinical patterns

 

emerge.

 

 

 

The quote you made from Zhang Xi Chun is very good Z'ev. I think I found

 

the relevant Chinese quote from his book on the segment on " The Physician

 

Must do sitting in meditation (jing zuo zhi gong) in order to gain

 

philosophical insight (sartori) " . It goes:

 

 

 

" The physician is one entrusted with life. This person must be

 

exceptionally clever and wise. At the same time he must be able to penetrate

 

through the subtleties of the human body; observe the Qi transformations in

 

Heaven and Earth, differentiate the vastness and depth of the materia

 

medica, diagnose the clinical pattern, pick a formulae which corresponds

 

with a pathological mechanism, and thus save a human life "

 

 

 

" Yi zhe shengming suo tuo, bi qi ren juyou feichang zongming, er hou neng

 

dong renshen zhi jingwei, ca tiandi zhi Qihua, bian yaowu zhi fanze,

 

linzheng shufang shihe bingji, jiuren shengming. " (Zhang Xi Chun .Yi Xue

 

Zhong Zhong Can Xi Lu (Middle Volume. p212) Hebei Science and Technology

 

Publishing House, Hebei

 

 

 

 

 

Rey Tiquia

 

Phd Candidate

 

Dept of History and Philosophy of Science

 

The University of melbourne

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> " " <zrosenbe

 

>

 

>Re: Re: " key terms "

 

>Wed, Sep 4, 2002, 6:32 AM

 

>

 

 

 

> Thank you, Dean. I'll try to answer in sequence.

 

>

 

> 1) I'd like to quote Zhang Xi-chun via Heiner Fruehauf's translation from

 

> Yixue zhong zhong can xi lu to answer the first question about the

 

> lifestyle of students and practitioners of CM. " We can only teach our

 

> fellow human beings about how to protect their bodies if we are first

 

> capable of protecting our own. The physician first thoroughly understands

 

> the workings of his/her own qi transformations, and then naturally becomes

 

> a teacher who is capable of instructing others how to regulate their

 

> bodies' qi metabolism. " Or, as it says in the Talmud, " one who does not

 

> take care of one's own health cannot take care of another's health " .

 

>

 

> 2) Being a physician of Chinese medicine is different than being a

 

> hairdresser or accountant. There is more demand on us, because we utilize

 

> a highly trained sensory awareness to see changes in body shape, color,

 

> odor, sound, heat and cold, dampness and dryness, repletion and vacuity.

 

> The information from our senses is then translated by the mind, using the

 

> logic of Chinese medicine to do pattern discrimination and treatment

strategy.

 

>

 

> 3) What is universal in spirituality is the need to be upright, honest,

 

> clear of mind, compassionate, not stealing, killing or committing adultery

 

 

> Every tradition has codes of behavior, and every medical tradition

 

> mentions these things. You can find them in the Ambrosia Tantras of

 

> Tibetan medicine, the Charaka Samhita of Ayurveda, and in such works as

Sun

 

> Si-miao's Qian Jin Yao Fang in Chinese medicine. It is also inherent in

 

> the Confucian tradition, which is one of the backbones of Chinese medicine

 

 

> I believe one can be 'secular' and still cultivate these virtues.

 

> Neuroscientists and cognitive scientists such as the Churchlands here at

 

> UCSD are secular scientists who teach the need for codes of ethics. They

 

> suggest learning the Aristotelean codes of ethics as a standard in

 

> conducting one's life.

 

>

 

> 4) From what I know of Dr. Vasant Lad, there is no coercion to study

 

> Hinduism, but obviously religion is more of an apparent influence on

 

> Ayurvedic medicine than Chinese medicine. This may have something to do

 

> with the difference between Hindu and Confucian practices, which are very

 

> 'down to earth' and logical in many respects. When I studied with him

years

 

> ago, he would do a simple chant to start his class, and nothing more.

 

>

 

>

 

> On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 12:44 PM, Dean Militello wrote:

 

>

 

> Thanks Z'ev, this is the type of thread that I was hoping to establish

 

> with my recent response to the " invest in loss " thread. It seemed to fall

 

> on deaf ears. Perhaps people thought I was being sarcastic by asking about

 

> acupuncturists who aerobicise, I was a little. But the query is real, and

 

> to my mind important.

 

> What is the relationship between the way we " eat, sleep and live " , as you

 

> put it, and the practice of CM?

 

> My notion is that this may be difficult to discuss, because, of course,

we

 

> are a profession and not a religion. But, is it a more important for

this

 

> profession than perhaps that of accountants or hairdressers?

 

> And what of religion?, clearly we are of many and varied traditions, but

 

> CM has been practiced by people of many religions for many centuries. What

 

> are the " universal aspects of spirituality that can be established " that

 

> you mention?

 

> My bias is that it may be easier for a person coming from a particular

 

> tradition, like yourself, to gleam the universal aspects that his or her

 

> tradition shares with another than someone who perceives themselves as

 

> coming from no tradition. any thoughts?

 

> You mention that " There is an emphasis on upright living and the practice

 

> of the Ayurvedic lifestyle among the students " . are students encouraged to

 

> study other aspects of Hinduism?

 

> These are just a few thoughts and queries on what I consider to be a topic

 

> that has multiple and significant bearing on the present and future of

 

> CM, outside and inside China. I would appreciate your and others ideas

on

 

this.

 

> Dean

 

>

 

>

 

> -

 

>

 

>

 

> Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:50 AM

 

> Re: Re: " key terms "

 

>

 

> Marco,

 

> I'll put it this way. When I was in Albuquerque, I stopped by an Ayurvedic

 

> restaurant (Annapurna) whose food was some of the highest quality I ever

 

> ate in a restaurant. I went from there to the Ayurvedic Institute, where I

 

> bought Dr. Vasant Lad's new textbook. The instruction there emphasizes the

 

> importance of constitutional types in treatment, daily lifestyle, diet,

 

> yoga, and has a special clinic for panchakarma treatment, a special

 

> comprehensive cleansing regimen.

 

> To quote their catalog (from the Charaka Samhita):

 

> " A wise person desiring to become a physician should first examine the

 

> system being taught, its authenticity, completeness and applicability.

 

> Thereafter, one should examine the teacher. The teacher should possess a

 

> deep understanding of the theoretical and practical aspects of the science

 

 

> have extensive experience in practice, be skillful, friendly, pure,

 

> compassionate, fatherly to students, and capable of infusing understanding

 

 

>

 

> Having decided, approached the teacher with respect and been accepted, a

 

> student should engage in study seriously; wake up early, finish morning

 

> routines and spiritual practices; pay respect to saints, sages, preceptors

 

 

> elders, the teacher and all beings. The student should then make efforts

to

 

> comprehend, clearly express, and discuss the knowledge by studying the

 

> information already acquired, entering deeply in contemplation in order to

 

> completely understand the meaning and the applications... "

 

>

 

> -Charaka Samhita, Vimanasthanam, Chapter Eight

 

>

 

>

 

> This has always been the traditional way. Students of traditional medicine

 

> were always asked to eat, sleep and live right in order to have clear

minds

 

> and healthy bodies. Without this, it is more difficult to absorb and learn

 

> traditional forms of medicine. While I don't have a Hindu approach to life

 

 

> (I am a practicing orthodox Jew), there are universal aspects of

 

> spirituality that can be established in an individual's life.

 

>

 

> What a contrast to American Chinese medicine schools, where students bring

 

> Burger King and diet cokes to class and eat while they study! There seems

 

> to be little interest in the students taking care of themselves, or any

 

> obligation to do so. When sick, many students use antibiotics or other

 

> biomedical treatment, without taking advantage of the tools of Chinese

 

> medicine. Chinese medicine is looked at simply as a profession involving

 

> acupuncture and maybe the use of herbs, without any adjustment to

lifestyle

 

> among the majority of students.

 

>

 

> Partially this is because there has not been a systematic presentation of

 

> Chinese medical principles on constitutional typing, dietetics, exercise

 

> (qi gong), and the tao of medicine in daily life. Unfortunately, it is

more

 

> difficult to get a good grasp on the medicine without this.

 

>

 

> After all, these subjects are not required to take the state boards!

 

>

 

> What are our priorities in the profession in producing the next generation

 

> of practitioners?

 

>

 

> Am I an idealist? So be it.

 

>

 

>

 

> On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 05:06 AM, Marco wrote:

 

>

 

> Zev:

 

> One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living according

 

> to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet, exercise, and

 

> harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings of Chinese

 

> medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration in the

 

> teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic Institute in

 

> Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence.

 

>

 

> Marco:

 

>

 

> Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the

 

> interactive experience with the Ayerveda college?

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> <image.tiff>

 

>

 

>

 

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

 

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

 

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional

 

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

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Rey,

 

Well stated. I could not agree more.

Greyson Ross

----

 

 

 

Thursday, September 05, 2002 4:03:22 AM

 

Cc: hrv

Re: Medical Ecumenicalism

Sept.5,2002 9:00 pmMelbourne, Australia Dear Greyson,I think you may be right about this perception of'hostility' coming from some isolated quarters within the TCM community . And probably there may be some historical roots to this . However, I stress the point that there are no valid justifications for this attitude. I agree with you that this 'hostility' is not healthy. As you mentioned ,this negativity brings imbalance not only to the person who projects it but more importantly to the person it is directed against . In addition, this negativity circulates far and wide which In the end 'fractures' the 'wholiness' of the entire healing and medical profession. I think practical measures must be made to redress this imbalance. I am only speaking for myself when I propose this. I believe attempts must be made by practitioners of various traditions of healthcare i.e. TCM and biomedical practitoners to open some form of 'dialogue' with each other. The aim is to promote understanding between and among each other. A sort of 'medical ecumenalism' that the late Joseph Needham envisioned in one of his writings. Our profession in many ways is just in its infancy in the West. We are still learning how to walk and literally speaking, we are just learning to speak the TCM language. Hence sometimes out of our own professional and cultural bias, we may make postings which may be construed as negative. But the main thing is to learn from this communication 'breakdown' and eventually know how to relate to other healthcare professionals and in the process also learn how to 'speak their language' as well and be good transmedical ecumenical communicators.Regards, Rey TiquiaChairpersonAlliance of Associations of Australia----------"Greyson" <greysonrossRe: Re: TCM Logic,Values,EthicWed, Sep 4, 2002, 7:13 PM

Rey, I agree with your overall assesment on the unique and special skillsrequired of the competent TCM practitioner. However, there is one recurrenttheme I have noticed among the TCM community which I find troubling. Thisis the constant hostility directed against Western medical doctors. Thereare few who would not agree much of this hostility may be warranted. Nevertheless, they perform a job which is more often than not both physicalyand mentally grueling. It is not uncommon, in fact it is often the norm,for interns to work up to 30 hour plus shifts. As far as being alienatedfrom their patients, try telling this to the intern who has to mechanicallyremove impacted feces from an elderly patient. Ironically, and I don't mean to be antedotal, I have found the Westernmedical community more open-minded than many TCM practitioners! This may bepartly due to an insecurity among our own profession. This is a shameconsidering what we have to offer. Overall, I have always felt when anindividual, or a group, makes negative generalizations towards the percieved'competition' it tends to do more harm than good. Villifying westerndoctors and their inadequacies is not necessary. Afterall, they havealready done a good job of this on their own:) Greyson Ross ---- Date: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:19:33 AM Cc: hrvSubject: Re: TCM Logic,Values,EthicDear Z'ev,I agree with you that the job of being a Chinese medicine physician is verydemanding and different compared to being a hairdresser or an accountant.More significantly the job of being a physician of Chinese medicine is moredifferent and more demanding than being a Western biomedical physician. Thebiomedical physician only has to read the patient's condition throughtheir representations i.e. x-ray,bone scan,blood tests results, bloodpressure instrument readings ; make their diagnosis (based on theserepresentations ) , and then match their diagnosis with appropriatemedication. While for us we have in many ways have to read the patient'scondition and their sufferings face-to-face i.e. re-present them or 'embody'them. We have to listen to their complaints, observe their face colour,tongue; feel their pulse; sniff their healing scent. Subsequently, " usingthe "logic of Chinese medicine" (using your words Z'ev) sort out theirclinical pattern and make a diagnosis .But the work does not stop here. Wehave to tailor a treatment to this patient and then subsequently using ourFour Examination system as an evaluating tool ,work out how they respondedto the treatment.In short, we have a set of values, or 'logic' or ethic which is verydifferent indeed from the biomedical practitioner or the hairdresser,chiropractor, naturopath , beautician or even an Ayurvedic medicalpractitioner etc. And as CM practitioners, we embody these values. I referto these set of values ,ethic , logic as the ethic of restoring balancewhich in the Chinese language is referred to as yi ping wei Qi. In terms ofdealing with the patient or our students, or with the world around usincluding the natural world we live in, we hold on to this set of value ofhealth-as-balance.Health-as-balance in terms of the imaginaries of Yin and Yang and Qi as wellas the notion of a balanced and healthy person is encoded in the YellowEmperor's Classic on Internal Medicine. In a dialogue between the YellowEmperor and his Minister Qi Po , the former asked" "Where does the excess clinical pattern come from? Where does the the defficient clinical pattern lead to? Please explain the principle behind the emergence of excess and deficient clinical patterns ? " Qi Po replied: Both the Yang and the Yin acupuncture channels have respective acupuncture points through which they enter and meet. For example, the Qi and blood of the Yang acupuncture channels flow into the Yin acupuncture channels, while the Qi and blood of the Yin acupuncture channels flow outwards. In this way, the YIn and Yang are in a state of balance. This will fill up the body form while the nine segments of the pulse will all beat in harmony. This is what we refer to as a balanced (ping) person." Di yue: Shi zhe he dao cong lai ? Xu zhe he dao cong qu? Xu shi zhi yao, yuan wen qi gu. Qi Po yue: Fu yin yu yang, jie you shu hui. Yang zhu yu yin, yin man zhi way, yin yang jun ping, yi chong qi xing, jiu hou ruo yi, ming yue ping ren." [Gao shi Zong (Qing Dynasty)l980Huang Di Su Wen Zhi Jie. The Yellow Emperor Plain Question StraightCommentary.Science Technology Literature Publishing House. Beijing..pp409-410]In general terms, health is attained when balance is maintained between astrong well-nourished Zheng Qi ( YANG positive Qi or Medicatrix naturae asJoseph Needham calls it) and a relatively weak and undernoushed Xie Qi (YINnegative Qi) i.e. disease causing factors or 'heteropathy' ( as is referredto by Chao Y'uan Ling in his Phd dissertation Medicine and Society in LaterImperial China : A Study of Physicians in Soozhou,University of CalifornaLos Angeles,l995). However, when the overall Zheng Qi becomes undernourishedand weakened while the Xie Qi becoems strong, balance is lost and imbalanceoccurs, illness , signs and symptoms of disease and clinical patternsemerge. The quote you made from Zhang Xi Chun is very good Z'ev. I think I foundthe relevant Chinese quote from his book on the segment on "The PhysicianMust do sitting in meditation (jing zuo zhi gong) in order to gainphilosophical insight (sartori) ". It goes: "The physician is one entrusted with life. This person must beexceptionally clever and wise. At the same time he must be able to penetratethrough the subtleties of the human body; observe the Qi transformations inHeaven and Earth, differentiate the vastness and depth of the materiamedica, diagnose the clinical pattern, pick a formulae which correspondswith a pathological mechanism, and thus save a human life"" Yi zhe shengming suo tuo, bi qi ren juyou feichang zongming, er hou nengdong renshen zhi jingwei, ca tiandi zhi Qihua, bian yaowu zhi fanze,linzheng shufang shihe bingji, jiuren shengming." (Zhang Xi Chun .Yi XueZhong Zhong Can Xi Lu (Middle Volume. p212) Hebei Science and TechnologyPublishing House, HebeiRey TiquiaPhd CandidateDept of History and Philosophy of ScienceThe University of melbourne>"" <zrosenbe> >Re: Re: "key terms">Wed, Sep 4, 2002, 6:32 AM>> Thank you, Dean. I'll try to answer in sequence.>> 1) I'd like to quote Zhang Xi-chun via Heiner Fruehauf's translation from> Yixue zhong zhong can xi lu to answer the first question about the> lifestyle of students and practitioners of CM. " We can only teach our> fellow human beings about how to protect their bodies if we are first> capable of protecting our own. The physician first thoroughly understands> the workings of his/her own qi transformations, and then naturally becomes> a teacher who is capable of instructing others how to regulate their> bodies' qi metabolism." Or, as it says in the Talmud, "one who does not> take care of one's own health cannot take care of another's health".>> 2) Being a physician of Chinese medicine is different than being a> hairdresser or accountant. There is more demand on us, because we utilize> a highly trained sensory awareness to see changes in body shape, color,> odor, sound, heat and cold, dampness and dryness, repletion and vacuity.> The information from our senses is then translated by the mind, using the> logic of Chinese medicine to do pattern discrimination and treatmentstrategy.>> 3) What is universal in spirituality is the need to be upright, honest,> clear of mind, compassionate, not stealing, killing or committing adultery> Every tradition has codes of behavior, and every medical tradition> mentions these things. You can find them in the Ambrosia Tantras of> Tibetan medicine, the Charaka Samhita of Ayurveda, and in such works asSun> Si-miao's Qian Jin Yao Fang in Chinese medicine. It is also inherent in> the Confucian tradition, which is one of the backbones of Chinese medicine> I believe one can be 'secular' and still cultivate these virtues.> Neuroscientists and cognitive scientists such as the Churchlands here at> UCSD are secular scientists who teach the need for codes of ethics. They> suggest learning the Aristotelean codes of ethics as a standard in> conducting one's life.>> 4) From what I know of Dr. Vasant Lad, there is no coercion to study> Hinduism, but obviously religion is more of an apparent influence on> Ayurvedic medicine than Chinese medicine. This may have something to do> with the difference between Hindu and Confucian practices, which are very> 'down to earth' and logical in many respects. When I studied with himyears> ago, he would do a simple chant to start his class, and nothing more.>> > On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 12:44 PM, Dean Militello wrote:>> Thanks Z'ev, this is the type of thread that I was hoping to establish> with my recent response to the "invest in loss" thread. It seemed to fall> on deaf ears. Perhaps people thought I was being sarcastic by asking about> acupuncturists who aerobicise, I was a little. But the query is real, and> to my mind important. > What is the relationship between the way we "eat, sleep and live", as you> put it, and the practice of CM?> My notion is that this may be difficult to discuss, because, of course, we> are a profession and not a religion. But, is it a more important forthis> profession than perhaps that of accountants or hairdressers? > And what of religion?, clearly we are of many and varied traditions, but> CM has been practiced by people of many religions for many centuries. What> are the "universal aspects of spirituality that can be established" that> you mention? > My bias is that it may be easier for a person coming from a particular> tradition, like yourself, to gleam the universal aspects that his or her> tradition shares with another than someone who perceives themselves as> coming from no tradition. any thoughts?> You mention that "There is an emphasis on upright living and the practice> of the Ayurvedic lifestyle among the students". are students encouraged to> study other aspects of Hinduism? > These are just a few thoughts and queries on what I consider to be a topic> that has multiple and significant bearing on the present and future of> CM, outside and inside China. I would appreciate your and others ideasonthis.> Dean> >> -> > > Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:50 AM> Re: Re: "key terms">> Marco,> I'll put it this way. When I was in Albuquerque, I stopped by an Ayurvedic> restaurant (Annapurna) whose food was some of the highest quality I ever> ate in a restaurant. I went from there to the Ayurvedic Institute, where I> bought Dr. Vasant Lad's new textbook. The instruction there emphasizes the> importance of constitutional types in treatment, daily lifestyle, diet,> yoga, and has a special clinic for panchakarma treatment, a special> comprehensive cleansing regimen.> To quote their catalog (from the Charaka Samhita):> "A wise person desiring to become a physician should first examine the> system being taught, its authenticity, completeness and applicability.> Thereafter, one should examine the teacher. The teacher should possess a> deep understanding of the theoretical and practical aspects of the science> have extensive experience in practice, be skillful, friendly, pure,> compassionate, fatherly to students, and capable of infusing understanding>> Having decided, approached the teacher with respect and been accepted, a> student should engage in study seriously; wake up early, finish morning> routines and spiritual practices; pay respect to saints, sages, preceptors> elders, the teacher and all beings. The student should then make effortsto> comprehend, clearly express, and discuss the knowledge by studying the> information already acquired, entering deeply in contemplation in order to> completely understand the meaning and the applications...">> -Charaka Samhita, Vimanasthanam, Chapter Eight>>> This has always been the traditional way. Students of traditional medicine> were always asked to eat, sleep and live right in order to have clearminds> and healthy bodies. Without this, it is more difficult to absorb and learn> traditional forms of medicine. While I don't have a Hindu approach to life> (I am a practicing orthodox Jew), there are universal aspects of> spirituality that can be established in an individual's life.>> What a contrast to American Chinese medicine schools, where students bring> Burger King and diet cokes to class and eat while they study! There seems> to be little interest in the students taking care of themselves, or any> obligation to do so. When sick, many students use antibiotics or other> biomedical treatment, without taking advantage of the tools of Chinese> medicine. Chinese medicine is looked at simply as a profession involving> acupuncture and maybe the use of herbs, without any adjustment tolifestyle> among the majority of students.>> Partially this is because there has not been a systematic presentation of> Chinese medical principles on constitutional typing, dietetics, exercise> (qi gong), and the tao of medicine in daily life. Unfortunately, it ismore> difficult to get a good grasp on the medicine without this.>> After all, these subjects are not required to take the state boards!>> What are our priorities in the profession in producing the next generation> of practitioners?>> Am I an idealist? So be it.>> > On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 05:06 AM, Marco wrote:>> Zev:> One answer I have is in one's lifestyle, in other words, living according> to Chinese medical principles of study, meditation, diet, exercise, and> harmony with the laws of nature and time. Then the teachings of Chinese> medicine become second nature. Lately, I've found inspiration in the> teachings of Ayurvedic medicine after visiting the Ayurvedic Institute in> Albuquerque, because it is relatively free of Western influence.>> Marco:> > Very interesting and useful thanks, can you elaborate a bit on the> interactive experience with the Ayerveda college?> >>> <image.tiff>>>> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety ofprofessional> services, including board approved online continuing education.>> http://www..org>>

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, " Greyson " <greysonross@C...>

wrote:

> Rey,

>

> Well stated. I could not agree more.

> Greyson Ross

 

a reminder for all. to conserve bandwidth and make it easier for

digest readers, please, please, please delete any text from your

reply that you are not responding to. thanks.

 

>

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