cooking

[Guest guest]

Recently, a student made a comment I hear quite frequently. I was

notifying interns that we had a new service to provide powdered extracts

to our patients. The student commented that mixing the single herb

powders together was not adequate because the herbs were not cooked

together. While this may be true, they are still certainly far more

effective than patents and far more compliant than raw herbs. Let's

assume some important action of herbs has to do with their interactions

with other herbs in a mixture. I think this is a given. But how much of

that interaction is actually due to the process of cooking?

 

Heat is generally not the most desirable component of the extraction

process. In fact, all modern extraction facilities seek to control or

reduce the amount of heat used in extraction. this preserves the active

constituents of the herbs most efficiently. Heat is vital in low tech

extraction methods such as decoction. It is also useful when one needs an

extraction in a short period of time. But heat is not necessarily

essential to do an extraction. so the fact the herbs in decoction are

combined in the presence of heat is perhaps not that crucial.

 

On the other hand, the combination of herbs in the presence of liquid is

probably essential. Reactions between herbs largely depend on a liquid

medium. But doesn't the consumption of herbs with water into the warm

stomach provide a place for these reactions to take place? So while I

have no doubt that gui zhi tang contains compounds not present in any of

the individual herbs, I do not believe it has been tested whether these

compounds appear in the bloodstream of those who consume a mixture of the

individual powders that have not been cooked together.

 

I often hear these products dismissed by those who do not use them in this

way. but there are at least a few hundred of us out there who have been

using powders this way for up to 15 years or more. Many of my chinese

colleagues have switched to these and are satisfied with the results. I

still think that when you weigh flexibility, potency, compliance against

the supposed cooking issue, it really pales. If one has used these

products in adequate dosage (12-15 grams per day), you will not be

disappointed.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds " --

Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Recently, a student made a comment I hear quite frequently. I was notifying interns that we had a new service to provide powdered extracts to our patients. The student commented that mixing the single herb powders together was not adequate because the herbs were not cooked together

>>>>>WHAT ABOUT IF YOU PUT THEM IN HOT H2O

ALON

[Guest guest]

 

I think you raise some important issues here. . .generally, if I

give spray-dried tablets or powders that are mixed separately, I ask

patients to either mix them with or take them with hot water. Since

the herbs have been pre-cooked and extracted, a short exposure to hot

water I feel will create enough interaction between the herbs to make

the prescription 'complete'.

I think spray-dried powders are different then san3/powders, which

are basically ground up raw herbs, that need to be taken with hot

water. The cooking is not as much of an issue.

It is difficult to prove this stuff one way or another, but I don't

doubt that your personal experience is correct. However, I do tell

students to have their patients take the extracts with hot water or tea.

 

 

On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 11:14 AM, wrote:

 

>

> Recently, a student made a comment I hear quite frequently. I was

> notifying interns that we had a new service to provide powdered

> extracts to our patients. The student commented that mixing the

> single herb powders together was not adequate because the herbs were

> not cooked together. While this may be true, they are still certainly

> far more effective than patents and far more compliant than raw herbs.

> Let's assume some important action of herbs has to do with their

> interactions with other herbs in a mixture. I think this is a given.

> But how much of that interaction is actually due to the process of

> cooking?

[Guest guest]

.... I noticed a significant difference when I had KPC mix and encapsulate

the same formulas. Jim Ramholz

 

Jim, I would guess that it could be because the encapsulation of the herbs

preserves them better than being exposed to the air from repeatedly opening

and closing the source jar. If that or something like it is not the case

then I would assume that a varying quality of raw materials were used in the

different batches, something that is quite common to see when companies

source from different growing areas and at different times of year.

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

> > Recently, a student made a comment I hear quite frequently. I

was notifying interns that we had a new service to provide powdered

> > extracts to our patients. The student commented that mixing the

> > single herb powders together was not adequate because the herbs

were not cooked together. While this may be true, they are still

certainly far more effective than patents and far more compliant

than raw herbs.

> > Let's assume some important action of herbs has to do with

their interactions with other herbs in a mixture. I think this is a

given.

> > But how much of that interaction is actually due to the process

of cooking?

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

My experience has been generally the same as yours. Almost all the

formulas I make are in concentrate/powders. I have an associate mix

and encapsulate my formulas from concentrates of single herbs.

 

Those formulas work well. But I noticed a significant difference

when I had KPC mix and encapsulate the same formulas. In the office,

only a few hundred grams of a formula are made up at any one time;

while KPC makes 10,000 grams of a formula to encapsulate.

 

When KPC makes up the same formula, the formula seems to work even

better. I suspect it is because the quantities being combined and

mixed machanically make the formula close to the original, ideal

ratio. Made in the office, the ratio of the herbs isn't exact and

the mixing is done shaking the container by hand. Sometimes a

formula will have a wide range of weights (for example, 60 grams to

1 gram) that doesn't mix completely and evenly.

 

Cooking the herbs together may create unique combinations of

molecules that aren't duplicated in the stomach and would be still

better, I suspect. But that usually requires 50,000 gram batches---

more than I can use in a short time.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

> > Recently, a student made a comment I hear quite frequently. I

was notifying interns that we had a new service to provide powdered

> > extracts to our patients. The student commented that mixing the

> > single herb powders together was not adequate because the herbs

were not cooked together. While this may be true, they are still

certainly far more effective than patents and far more compliant

than raw herbs.

> > Let's assume some important action of herbs has to do with

their interactions with other herbs in a mixture. I think this is a

given.

> > But how much of that interaction is actually due to the process

of cooking?

[Guest guest]

Stephen:

 

Good point; that well may be part of it, too. This probably helps

create the confusion in various texts about taste and meridian

induction.

 

But when experimenting with or adjusting different combinations or

amounts of individual herbs in a formula, I track the effectiveness

in the pulses and the sensation of how the formula moves through

different meridians in my body. Then give the formula to a student

so they can do the same; then we compare notes. So even the same

bottle of individual herbs, when used in a different ratio, can also

create the difference I'm talking about.

 

Working this way has made me fond of sometimes using the Fibonacci

series of numbers (1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13 . . .) when putting together an

herbal formula.

 

Do you think this variability of seasons and different growing areas

is a good argument to standardize any individual herbs?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote:

> Jim, I would guess that it could be because the encapsulation of

the herbs preserves them better than being exposed to the air from

repeatedly opening and closing the source jar. If that or something

like it is not the case then I would assume that a varying quality

of raw materials were used in the different batches, something that

is quite common to see when companies source from different growing

areas and at different times of year.

[Guest guest]

Todd and Jim -

The way they work-around the issue in Taiwan is to use the modules from smaller guiding prescriptions ala Shang Han Za Bing Lun. Then add one or two herbs. This provides base formulas that are cooked together as well as the benefits of specific formulation. This method has been useful in my practice. I'm not sure I notice a difference, but I did it because of the studies in the old OHAI journals. Of note: Dr Shen often used powders, he abhored preconstructed formulas and insisted on combined single ingredients and he was particularly successful.

 

Will

 

Those formulas work well. But I noticed a significant difference when I had KPC mix and encapsulate the same formulas. In the office, only a few hundred grams of a formula are made up at any one time; while KPC makes 10,000 grams of a formula to encapsulate.

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <

alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Recently, a student made a comment I hear quite frequently. I

was notifying interns that we had a new service to provide

powdered extracts to our patients. The student commented that

mixing the single herb powders together was not adequate

because the herbs were not cooked together

> >>>>>WHAT ABOUT IF YOU PUT THEM IN HOT H2O

> ALON

 

my thought exactly, which is what I have the patients do

[Guest guest]

, " stephen " <stephen@b...>

wrote:

>

 

> Jim, I would guess that it could be because the encapsulation

of the herbs

> preserves them better than being exposed to the air from

repeatedly opening

> and closing the source jar.

 

Stephen

 

I was hoping you would chime in. How much difference do you

think cooking the herbs together makes from a pharmacological

perspective.

 

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

and Jim -

Of note: Dr Shen often used powders, he abhored

> preconstructed formulas and insisted on combined single

ingredients and he

> was particularly successful.

 

I'm with Dr. shen on this one. I knew it would happen someday.

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

How much difference do you think cooking the herbs together makes from a

pharmacological perspective.

 

 

 

A few years ago our lab produced a small sample batch of an eleven

ingredient formula using the same raw materials in two ways: 1) single

ingredients separately extracted and then combined, and 2) Two separate

group extractions: one with the water extracted ingredients and the second

with the water+etoh extracted ingredients. The two group extractions were

then combined. We then measured certain known chemical components of the

ingredients from the two formulas and found that the level of most

components were nearly the same, although slightly higher in a couple of the

combination of separately extracted ingredients. The difference was minimal

and not considered significant.

 

In another experiment we soaked an herb that is particularly difficult to

effectively extract, in water, and different combinations of H20 and ETOH

(ethanol). We also soaked it in a H2O and H2O+ETOH fluid extractions of

that same herb. We found that soaking the herb in its own tincture caused a

much more efficient extraction of certain difficult to extract chemical

components than with the solvents alone, within a comparable timeframe. On

the other hand, other herbs will responded in the opposite way wherein

saturation limits the extraction efficiency. So this just points out that

the above mentioned experiment on the eleven herb combination does not

reflect a broadly applicable " law of nature " .

 

Also, I was told of an experiment done in a Chinese Institute that compared

the therapeutic benefits of group extractions to the same combinations of

single herb extractions and that the single ingredients combined together

were considered more effective. That was verbally recounted to me by a

colleague in Beijing who did not appear to have any particular reason for

bias either way. My opinion is that it would depend on the herbal

combination.

 

Lastly, part of the reason that single herb extraction can be better in

certain circumstances is that our research has clearly shown that extraction

methods that are specifically geared to the individual characteristics of

each herb will affect yield and extraction efficiency in a way that

optimizes the outcome. This specificity of method cannot be accomplished in

a group extraction. However don't confuse this with the single ingredients

produced under the kampo GMP requirements that limit the solvent to water,

which is what you get from the Taiwanese manufacturers that dominate the TCM

practitioner market in the US.

 

Stephen Morrissey

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In one of John Chen's seminars... I think it was Chiang's pulse

diagnosis class, John said that cooking the herbs in a forumla was

different than just using the single herbs mixed together. One example

was the myo relaxing effect of using Gan Cao with Bai Shao. He said

that when they are cooked and extracted together, then effect was much

stronger than using the two alone.

 

Geoff

 

 

> __________

>

> Message: 16

> Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:53:19 -0000

> " " <

> Re: cooking

> Of note: Dr Shen often used powders, he abhored

> > preconstructed formulas and insisted on combined single

> ingredients and he

> > was particularly successful.

>

> I'm with Dr. shen on this one. I knew it would happen someday.

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

While that would make sense to me, and I would agree, I wonder if he is

basing that idea (of the myo relaxation) on clinical experience or

studies of any kind.

 

 

On Thursday, September 12, 2002, at 02:12 PM, Geoffrey Hudson, L.Ac.

wrote:

 

> In one of John Chen's seminars... I think it was Chiang's pulse

> diagnosis class, John said that cooking the herbs in a forumla was

> different than just using the single herbs mixed together.  One example

> was the myo relaxing effect of using Gan Cao with Bai Shao.  He said

> that when they are cooked and extracted together, then effect was much

> stronger than using the two alone.

>

> Geoff

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

I'm almost positive it was based on some study, but I would ask him to

find out for sure. In his seminars, he quotes quite a few Chinese

jounal sources.

Geoff

 

> __________

>

> Message: 2

> Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:15:44 -0700

> " " <zrosenbe

> Re: Re: cooking

>

> While that would make sense to me, and I would agree, I

> wonder if he is

> basing that idea (of the myo relaxation) on clinical experience or

> studies of any kind.

>

>

> On Thursday, September 12, 2002, at 02:12 PM, Geoffrey Hudson, L.Ac.

> wrote:

>

> > In one of John Chen's seminars... I think it was Chiang's pulse

> > diagnosis class, John said that cooking the herbs in a forumla was

> > different than just using the single herbs mixed together.  One

> > example was the myo relaxing effect of using Gan Cao with

> Bai Shao. 

> > He said that when they are cooked and extracted together,

> then effect

> > was much stronger than using the two alone.

> >

> > Geoff

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Geoff, for the clarification.

 

Z'ev

On Saturday, September 14, 2002, at 09:50 AM, Geoffrey Hudson, L.Ac.

wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

> I'm almost positive it was based on some study, but I would ask him to

> find out for sure.  In his seminars, he quotes quite a few Chinese

> jounal sources.

> Geoff

>

> > __________

> >

> > Message: 2

> >    Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:15:44 -0700

> >    " " <zrosenbe

> > Re: Re: cooking

> >

> > While that would make sense to me, and I would agree, I

> > wonder if he is

> > basing that idea (of the myo relaxation) on clinical experience or

> > studies of any kind.

> >

> >

> > On Thursday, September 12, 2002, at 02:12 PM, Geoffrey Hudson, L.Ac.

> > wrote:

> >

> > > In one of John Chen's seminars... I think it was Chiang's pulse

> > > diagnosis class, John said that cooking the herbs in a forumla was

> > > different than just using the single herbs mixed together.  One

> > > example was the myo relaxing effect of using Gan Cao with

> > Bai Shao. 

> > > He said that when they are cooked and extracted together,

> > then effect

> > > was much stronger than using the two alone.

> > >

> > > Geoff

>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>