Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Hi all, one of my patients has a family history of high prolactin levels. i treat here according to here patterns, however, i am interested in the properties of prolactin from a chinese perspective. her main complaint is of course irregular periods. a different question i have regard coffee, what can i make of the fact that a woman who suffers from liver-yang type headaches, with red eyes, red tongue+yellow coating finds the best remedy for her headaches is black coffee. how can this combine with the diagnosis? can the bitter taste of it bring the yang down? Thank You, Danny.L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Danny - Shan zha and mai ya in high doses are often used a a specific for the treatment of hyperprolactinemia. Will one of my patients has a family history of high prolactin levels. i treat here according to here patterns, however, i am interested in the properties of prolactin from a chinese perspective. her main complaint is of course irregular periods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Danny - If the liver gets worse with caffeine, it may be related more to the liver. If the headache gets better with caffeine, it is more likely gallbladder related. Coffee tends to cause some bile ejection and is mildly laxative. That said - the caffeine is likely to be related to the development of the underlying pattern even though it gives mild palliative relief. Will a different question i have regard coffee, what can i make of the fact that a woman who suffers from liver-yang type headaches, with red eyes, red tongue+yellow coating finds the best remedy for her headaches is black coffee. how can this combine with the diagnosis? can the bitter taste of it bring the yang down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Will, Which liver and gallbladder are you talking about? Western med or CM? Bob , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Danny - > > If the liver gets worse with caffeine, it may be related more to the liver. > If the headache gets better with caffeine, it is more likely gallbladder > related. Coffee tends to cause some bile ejection and is mildly laxative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 caffeine >>Also it can contribute to rebound headaches. It is however a very effective medicine for acute migraines. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Bob - This is western pathophysiology, however, I think it is valid for CM as well. Will Which liver and gallbladder are you talking about? Western med or CM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2002 Report Share Posted September 17, 2002 Bob - It can be any of the patterns typically associated with headaches. This information merely provides an additional subjective indicator. Will So what specific patterns of the CM liver and gallbladder are you describing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2002 Report Share Posted September 17, 2002 Will, So what specific patterns of the CM liver and gallbladder are you describing? Bob , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Bob - > > This is western pathophysiology, however, I think it is valid for CM as well. > > > Will > > > Which liver and gallbladder are you talking about? Western med or CM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2002 Report Share Posted September 18, 2002 Will, I'm leaving for Europe to teach for a month, so I probably won't be able to read your response. However, Philippe Sionneau does not list any " gallbladder " patterns for headache in Vol. 1 of The Treatment of Disease in TCM, which in my experience lists more patterns under diseases than any other English language CM text. So I'm still don't understand what you're getting at here in terms of CM pattern discrimination and practice. If there's no specifically gallbladder pattern of headache recognized in standard CM, then how does your discrimination of the liver and gallbladder based on response to coffee affect praxis? Perhaps you could take it to the next level of giving concrete Chinese HERBAL examples of the treatment of headaches based on the differentiation you are suggesting. Bob , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Bob - > > It can be any of the patterns typically associated with headaches. This > information merely provides an additional subjective indicator. > > Will > > > > So what specific patterns of the CM liver and gallbladder are you > > describing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2002 Report Share Posted September 18, 2002 Will, It may seem that Bob is nit-picking a fight although I think he's trying to make a point. Certainly GB20, GB14, GB40, and other GB channel points are commonly prescribed for various kinds of headaches And I'd go out on a limb and suggest that the GB channel has a relationship with the CM gall bladder. Bob's point seems to be that there is not a " gall bladder syndrome " listed as a primary target in the treatment of headaches. It is certainly arguable to suggest that the GB is not a secondary target in certain types of headaches that are listed under other primary targets, such as those related to underlying dampness and heat or liver fire syndromes. Fire in the liver and gall bladder are specifically referred to under treatment considerations for headache in the Shanghai College of TCM text translated by O'Conner and Bensky. Other examples in acupuncture abound. Are herbal texts devoid of the same concepts? I was curious, so looked in Formulas and Strategies. Under Headaches in the index it does not specifically list GB. However under Major Bupleurum decoction on pg 140 it states: " This formula may be used to treat either diarrhea or constipation. It may also be used for Liver and Gall Bladder fire causing headache, tinnitus, diminished hearing and vision, red eyes, manic behavior, or palpitations with anxiety if the presentation also includes epigastric fullness and pain, a bitter taste in the mouth a red tongue with yellow coating, and a fast wiry pulse. " Under biomedically-defined disorders it includes using Da Chai Hu Tang for chloecystitis and cholelithiasis. In this case there does seem to be a crossover between the WM Gall Bladder and the CM Gall Bladder. However there does seem to be fewer direct correlations between headache and Gall Bladder in my very cursory herbal literature review than I anticipated. Stephen Bob Flaws [pemachophel2001] Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:21 AM Re: Prolactin \ Coffe Will, I'm leaving for Europe to teach for a month, so I probably won't be able to read your response. However, Philippe Sionneau does not list any " gallbladder " patterns for headache in Vol. 1 of The Treatment of Disease in TCM, which in my experience lists more patterns under diseases than any other English language CM text. So I'm still don't understand what you're getting at here in terms of CM pattern discrimination and practice. If there's no specifically gallbladder pattern of headache recognized in standard CM, then how does your discrimination of the liver and gallbladder based on response to coffee affect praxis? Perhaps you could take it to the next level of giving concrete Chinese HERBAL examples of the treatment of headaches based on the differentiation you are suggesting. Bob , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Bob - > > It can be any of the patterns typically associated with headaches. This > information merely provides an additional subjective indicator. > > Will > > > > So what specific patterns of the CM liver and gallbladder are you > > describing? Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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