zhi bai di huang tang and hot flashes

[Guest guest]

On 9/20/02 12:18 PM, " "

wrote:

 

> Message: 6

> Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:05:29 -0500

> " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

> Re:Zhi Bai Di Huang Tang and hot flashes

>

> Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan is rarely effective as a decoction for hot flashes? What

> do you think is?

 

 

My sense of why Zhi Bai Di Huang Tang does not work for menopausal hot

flashes is the following. Menopausal symptoms are related to 7 year cycles

which is related to Jing. Liu Wei Di Huang Tang nourishes Kidney Yin and

supplements Kidney Qi but does nothing for the Jing aspect. My teacher, Dr.

Zhu, used to talk about the importance of " boosting the hormones " in these

cases, which was her way of saying you must include Jing tonics. An

important thing to consider is the fact that Empty Fire does not always

imply Yin deficiency. Zhi Mu and Huang Bai drain Empty Fire but if what is

empty is the Jing then clearly the Zhi Bai Di Huang Tang would not address

this. This is the logic behind Er Xian Tang - Two Immortals. This formula

supplements Kidney Yang and Jing and Drains Empty Fire. Other aspects can

be empty too. Qi or Blood deficiency can occur with Empty Fire. This, to

me, is a most common clinical error - thinking that where there is empty

fire, there must be Yin deficiency. Clinically this is not true. Hope this

is helpful

 

Sharon

[Guest guest]

I have found that Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan is not always helpful either.

We did try Two Immortaisl (Er Xian Tang?) and that helped for a

little while. But what in that formula addresses jing, rather than

kidney yang and yin.

 

Someone posted earlier about using Mu Li/Long Gu or even Shi Gao for

some patients. While it is true, as Sharon says, that empty fire

would encompass more than just kidney yin deficiency, I do not see

how a substance that clears heat at the qi or yang ming level, like

Shi Gao, would fit that syndrome. I have been tempted to use it on

the patient who didn't respnd to Zhi Bai DHW or Er Xian Tang after a

couple of weeks, but I just couldn't support it through my diagnosis.

 

I noted someone use Di Gu Pi for severe hot flashes one time, and

have thought about using that. Any thoughts on expanding on the use

of Di Gu Pi for that syndrome.

 

>Sharon said " My sense of why Zhi Bai Di Huang Tang does not work for

menopausal hot

> flashes is the following. Menopausal symptoms are related to 7

year cycles

> which is related to Jing "

[Guest guest]

At 1:25 PM -0400 9/22/02, Sharon Weizenbaum wrote:

>Zhi Mu and Huang Bai drain Empty Fire but if what is

>empty is the Jing then clearly the Zhi Bai Di Huang Tang would not address

>this. This is the logic behind Er Xian Tang - Two Immortals. This formula

>supplements Kidney Yang and Jing and Drains Empty Fire. Other aspects can

>be empty too. Qi or Blood deficiency can occur with Empty Fire. This, to

>me, is a most common clinical error - thinking that where there is empty

>fire, there must be Yin deficiency. Clinically this is not true. Hope this

>is helpful

--

 

I agree with this approach, and would add that if yin vacuity is an

issue, I find zuo gui wan as a guiding formula, as it also addresses

the essence. I prefer it to zuo gui yin, which is not a strong.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

I do not see how a substance that clears heat at the qi or yang ming level, like Shi Gao, would fit that syndrome. I

>>>If you have a tidle pulse regardless of other symptoms you can use Shi Gao.

Alon

[Guest guest]

OK, try this then - Yu Jin powder, mixed with honey, apply topically on

the nipples at night for night sweats. I have a side note that says

this has something to do with vegetative nerve function. I tell

patients to cover the nipples with a band-aid to not get the stuff

everywhere. I got this from a supervisor I had who used to travel

around the countryside when she would go back to China and write down a

bunch of folk herb information. Strange, but great results. There was

a formula (of course, if appropriate) for menopause that she gave us

also:

 

Gan Lian Tang

Sheng Di 15g

Bai Shao 18-24

Nu Zhen Zi 15

Ju Hua (add last few minutes) std dose

Huang Qin 12

Suan Zao Ren 15

Xuan Shen 15

Mai Dong 15

Wu Wei Zi 15

 

Geoff

 

 

> __________

>

> Message: 1

> Sun, 22 Sep 2002 19:31:23 -0000

> " gabriellemathieu " <gabriellemathieu

> Re: zhi bai di huang tang and hot flashes

>

> I have found that Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan is not always helpful either.

> We did try Two Immortaisl (Er Xian Tang?) and that helped for a

> little while. But what in that formula addresses jing, rather than

> kidney yang and yin.

>

> Someone posted earlier about using Mu Li/Long Gu or even Shi Gao for

> some patients. While it is true, as Sharon says, that empty fire

> would encompass more than just kidney yin deficiency, I do not see

> how a substance that clears heat at the qi or yang ming level, like

> Shi Gao, would fit that syndrome. I have been tempted to use it on

> the patient who didn't respnd to Zhi Bai DHW or Er Xian Tang after a

> couple of weeks, but I just couldn't support it through my diagnosis.

>

> I noted someone use Di Gu Pi for severe hot flashes one time, and

> have thought about using that. Any thoughts on expanding on the use

> of Di Gu Pi for that syndrome.

>

> >Sharon said " My sense of why Zhi Bai Di Huang Tang does not work for

> menopausal hot

> > flashes is the following. Menopausal symptoms are related to 7

> year cycles

> > which is related to Jing "

[Guest guest]

, Sharon Weizenbaum <sweiz@r...> wrote:

> In my experience, Jing deficiency often occurs with no " basic

Kidney signs " . What I mean by basic Kidney signs are weak sore low

back, night urine type symptoms. My teachers taught me to regard

growth and development issues (i.e. 7 & 8 year cycle things) as Jing

issues. In this light, at our clinic/school, we consider primary

dysmenorrhea (painful since onset) as, in part, a Jing deficiency.

So, the fact that an issue occurs related to a 7 year cycle, is, in

itself and indicator of Jing involvement. You do not need other

Kidney signs to conclude this.

 

 

Sharon:

 

This idea is not only generally supported by the first chapter of

the Suwen where the 7 and 8 year cycles are discussed, but from

modern Western longevity studies which show that kidney function

declines by 1 or 2 percent per year. After their mid-thirties,

people's general vitality can decline precipitantly---it's simply

the natural decline of aging. Jing depletion can be found in the

pulses even if their are no overt symptoms.

 

Jim Ramholz