Death - the ultimate imbalance?

[Guest guest]

On 9/24/02 4:19 PM, " "

wrote:

 

> Message: 13

> Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:22:58 -0000

> " James Ramholz " <jramholz

> Re: Digest Number 1143

>

> , Sharon Weizenbaum <sweiz@r...> wrote:

>>> That would suggest that menopause is a Jing deficiency then.

> Right? Interesting.

>

>> I don't think so. Symptoms associated with menopause have a Jing

>> deficient aspect but menopause itself is a normal healthy

> transition.

>

>

>

> Both you and Al are correct, menopause s/s are rooted in jing

> depletion, which is a typical life transition. But to say it is

> healthy may go to far. Many if not most mammals die shortly after

> their child-bearing and rearing days are over (so they've said on

> Animal Planet); humans are an exception to this general rule.

>

> The first chapter of the Suwen charts the four seasons of life---

> growth, development, decline, and death---against the qi and blood

> (jing) levels. But if we define life and health as the ability of

> the organism to be self-generating and self-perpetuating (what in

> complexity theory is called autopoietic), then menopause---and

> andropause---portends decline, which is not balance.

>

> Perhaps some will think I'm quibbling; perhaps we have only

> different attitudes toward the rate at which balance and transition

> occur or should be defined. I think we need to distinguish between

> the sense of balance that we try to define in CM as being healthy,

> which is ambiguous at best, and the dynamics of what happens in the

> body. And we shouldn't ignore or choose to be naive about what

> Western medicine says about it.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

Is death, then, the ultimate imbalance? Perhaps there are other definitions

of life and health. Perhaps there is a purpose behind some women living

half a century past menopause (like my grandmother) . I think it's a tricky

business to define something natural as inherently an imbalance. Because

the day declines in the afternoon, is that an imbalance to be corrected?

 

Sharon

[Guest guest]

, Sharon Weizenbaum <sweiz@r...> wrote:

> Is death, then, the ultimate imbalance? Perhaps there are other

definitions of life and health. Perhaps there is a purpose behind

some women living half a century past menopause (like my

grandmother). I think it's a tricky business to define something

natural as inherently an imbalance. Because the day declines in the

afternoon, is that an imbalance to be corrected?

 

 

Sharon:

 

I'm applying some ideas from Complexity Theory that I believe are

foreshadowed in the Suwen. I don't think it is only coincidental

that the first chapter provides the broadest context for all the

ideas to follow. In both the Suwen and Complexity Theory living

systems are always far from equilibrium.

 

Death is thermodynamic equilibrium or total entropy, and the

ultimate balance. These ideas dove-tail with 5-Phases very well, as

it too is a model trying to describe living systems. The Chinese

notion of balancing these processes does not preclude the dynamics;

in fact, it depends on it. Much of the classics are written with 5-

Phases clearly in mind. I'm not implying any moral or ethic sigma,

which I think is where the confusion may arise.

 

So, old age is not only a jing vacuity and should be treated as such-

--in order to extend the dynamics and keep it far from equilibrium.

It becomes more difficult to treat because there are fewer resources

to work with; it is also a problem of fewer mitochondira, muscle,

physical organs decline in weight, bone loss, the physical size of

the brain declines, etc. Many vacuities, even when there are no

symptoms or complaints.

 

Yes, the afternoon is an " imbalance " ---it is the opposite of morning

and contains very little growing energy (wood); in that sense it is

deficient. The notion of " health " should be restricted to how to

keep this dynamics going; but " purpose " is a higher ethical value

and, therefore, whatever you decide it to be.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz " <

jramholz> wrote:

 

 

>

> Death is thermodynamic equilibrium or total entropy, and the

> ultimate balance.

 

I have noticed two broad strains of thought in chinese longevity

philosophy on what constitutes the natural order of human life.

On one hand, we have the description of the decline as in the nei

jing. this is natural and expected. It is not pathological, per se,

when viewed from this perspective. But how could it be anything

other than jing vacuity. Because aging is nothing other than the

decline of essence. However, from this perspective, the use of

essence tonics only allows one to live out one's full natural

lifespan in good, if not robust, health. but they do not extend life.

 

From another perspective which is more exemplified in various

taoist texts on longevity and immortality, the human being is

capable of great longevity (a belief also echoed in the longevity of

the biblical patriarchs). these taoist texts had a very different

view of what is " natural " . They did not accept the normal notions

of decline and death. There were schools of thought that

involved practices for women (see Cleary's Immortal Sisters).

These often involved causing the menses to cease, not through

causing stagnation, but by transforming the " energies " that are

consumed in menstruation and sublimating them into spiritual

essence (via qi gong). these sects did not accept either monthly

menses or menopause as " natural " , but rather as part of our

baser animal nature, which is to be transcended, not

suppressed or embraced.

 

the way I interpret the natural life for humans in this latter context

is that humans are clearly not subject to exactly the same laws

of nature as animals. In fact, arguably, everything about

civilization is an affront to " nature " . Clothing, fire, weapons.

without these " inventions " , even the ancient chinese would have

perished eons ago, before civilization ever even began. human

bodies are pathetic from a darwinian perspective. It is our

minds that gave us the edge.

 

Developing systems of medicine, inserting needles in the body.

No animals do either of these things. Humans have a unique

brain/mind/consciousness that allows them to transmit

knowledge via culture in a way that is far more profound than any

other animal. We have speech and reflective thought. It does

not seem outside the realm of imagination that the evolutionary

leap that gave us our brains may somehow allow us to

transcend the normal cycles of life and death.

We already do a pretty good job thwarting death with merely our

heating and plumbing and sanitation. that is what our minds

have accomplished looking outwards. However many taoist

sages and hindu yogis have proclaimed that by looking inward

with the same resolve and power of will, there is a whole

untapped world of potential, a world where what we now

consider to be magic or fantasy is real. And this potential

includes immortality. from that perspective, menopause is a

sign of decline. the fact that it happens naturally is besides the

point. We would pee wherever we happened to be standing if

we never learned to sublimate that impulse. Perhaps the same

 

As usual, I recommend Ken Wilber on this subject. See his

Transformations of Consciousness, which is a serious and

clinically useful transpersonal psychology text. He lays out how

all growth is sublimation, tranformation and transcendence and

that there may be possibilities far beyond merely having a

healthy ego. and the development of human consciousness

depends on sublimating one's animal instincts. the essence is

transformed into spirit. the more one is willing to sublimate, the

further one can advance. If one sublimates the biological drive

to reproduce, for example, tremendous energy is freed for

spiritual development. Which is why all the great religious

traditions have sects devoted to the ascetic life.

 

P.S. I am not an ascetic. But these ideas are interesting. In my

practice, I tend to parrot the standard nei jing rap. I don't think

most people want to live forever anyway. They just want to feel

better. And besides, the taoist stuff is just plain weird. In my

personal life, I prefer to shoot for the stars. What is our true

destiny on this planet. Do 1000 year old sages walk among us?

Would one take the bite of a vampire or the injection of stem

cells if one had the option. Until that fateful choice arrives, I put

my cards with the taoist immortalists. What have I got to lose. At

worst I die. :-)

[Guest guest]

>is death the ultimate imbalance?

 

Death = ultimate separation of Yin and Yang.

Not so much an issue of balance, but of two

elements pulling apart and returning to

original form, beyond the body.

 

Dying itself, the progressive decline due

to illness or injury, could be considered

the ultimate imbalance because it represents

the most dramatic struggle of Yin and

Yang to stay together while pulling apart.

 

Dying due to natural decline ( " old age " )

could also be considered in this context,

although it is an expected process. Jing

dissipates, Yin and Yang no longer have

the foundation that anchors them to the

body, the separation occurs.

 

In many ancient cultures and mythologies,

Death is considered essential to the greater

process of Life. What dies returns its matter

to the earth and provides nourishment for

future growth. Therefore, life without death

may be the ultimate imbalance.

 

--Laurie Burton

[Guest guest]

, " burtonperez " <tgperez@e...>

wrote:

 

>

> In many ancient cultures and mythologies,

> Death is considered essential to the greater

> process of Life. What dies returns its matter

> to the earth and provides nourishment for

> future growth. Therefore, life without death

> may be the ultimate imbalance.

 

 

I wonder if this really applies to humans. If humans

disappeared from the planet, all scientists agree that life would

go on as if we were never here. No other organism, as far as I

am aware, depends on humans for its sustenance (except our

pets, of course). All other animals are vital parts of the food

chain. In fact, humans have always been detrimental to the

balance of nature. Even most traditonal agrarian cultures

decimated their environment 1000's of years ago. We do it a lot

more vigorously these days, but it is part and parcel of

civilization. the old romantic view of peaceful sages living in

harmony with nature has long since been dismissed as so

much wishful thinking. Humans only even try to live in balance

with nature after their minds and cultures develop enough to

notice how far out of whack their natural proclivities put them. It

is the burden of human consciousness that we always have a

choice about how we live our lives. animals in the wild live by

instinct.

 

I don't think humans would have survived outside subsaharan

africa without our minds. We were forced to at least partially

transcend nature to even survive as a species. all other animals

survive only with the tools nature gave them. We have the tools

to pull berries and fruit, to catch large, slow insects, collect

seeds and nuts (not really a good set of tools for scandinavia or

mongolia most of the year). Before we had fire, foods like grains

and beans and starchy roots were not digestible to humans and

prey was only available if we could scavenge it from the kill of a

true predator. If our very physical existence depends on us

being somewhat " unnatural " , one has to wonder what our

natural fate really is.

 

While many cultures have mythologized about death in the way

Laurie writes above, many cultures also have legends of

immortal sages. While mythology may contain important

wisdom, it is just as likely that it was used to control cultures.

There is ample evidence of purposeful manipulation of most

world mythologies by patriarchal usurpers of earlier matriarchal

societies in order to further political goals (god the father

replaces mother earth, blah, blah, blah).

 

The threat of death for the masses gives a lot of power to those

who control the rites of passage into the other world, mainly the

priests who worked for the king. You better behave or you burn

in hell, ever heard that one? It may not be coincidence that while

the offical state mythology wrote of the natural cycles of life and

death, many more marginal works wrote of immortality. And it

was the elite who read these books and vigorously pursued

physical immortality while at the same time preparing the

illiterate masses for death.