Guest guest Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 All, I get the sense from the comments on this thread that people feel that measuring practice trends only measures marketing or patient management skills, not " real " clinical performance. To accept what you say I would need to believe that clinical performance in Chinese medicine is so entirely masked by other factors that it is impossible to measure how well we are teaching clinical skills. I find that very hard to accept. If the survey makes sense and the population tested fits the questions, the trends will be useful. What I have the most trouble believing, however, is that entry level education is so fixed that change is beyond practical consideration. I cannot believe either that there is nothing left to learn or that there is no will to improve. Bob bob Paradigm Publications www.paradigm-pubs.com 44 Linden Street Robert L. Felt Brookline MA 02445 617-738-4664 --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 At 5:20 PM -0400 10/9/02, Robert L. Felt wrote: >To accept what you say I would need >to believe that clinical performance in Chinese medicine is so entirely >masked by other factors that it is impossible to measure how well we are >teaching clinical skills. -- I don't doubt we'd get useful information from such a survey. Perhaps I'mm missing your point, but what I don't see is that if we find that x% of practitioners drop out after y years, how we could conclude that the teaching of clinical skills is the issue to be addressed, as opposed to any number of other factors. >I find that very hard to accept. If the survey makes >sense and the population tested fits the questions, the trends will >be useful. >What I have the most trouble believing, however, is that entry level >education is so fixed that change is beyond practical consideration. I cannot >believe either that there is nothing left to learn or that there is no will to >improve. -- Here we are in agreement. Do you have any thoughts about what changes might be useful? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: I cannot > >believe either that there is nothing left to learn or that there is no will to > >improve. You know. I didn't say that, either. I said that entry level education is not going to add medical chinese unless it becomes a public safety issue. There is way too much disagreement on this point to ever see this change made for purely academic reasons. And it is not even a matter of waiting for the old guard to retire, because the new guard is just as ambivalent about this matter. I personally think Chinese should be taught at the masters and have said so many times, even if it means eliminating massage and qi gong classes. In fact, there is quite a will to improve, but it only occurs within certain boundaries. For example, with broad support from the faculty, PCOM has moved into a case based learning model with heavy emphasis on integrative medicine and the results have been impressive so far. Not everyone liked this and other changes and some have moved on, but the point is that we agreed this was desirable and we made it happen. There is no such consensus (obviously, if this list is an example) on the issue of medical chinese at the master's level. In fact, the consensus must be against this inclusion because almost no school does it. I think the style of education we are now applying at PCOM is more focused on critical thinking so students can assess a novel clinical event and know what resources to consult for accurate info (like the PD and sionneau, for example). It is developing this critical thinking skill that is the most important responsibility of the schools, I think. Learning this skill within the context of TCM allows the clinician to understand and utilize any " data " they access. I don't think it's about learning more " details " , but learning how to use those " details " effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 , " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...> wrote: > All, > > I get the sense from the comments on this thread that people feel that > measuring practice trends only measures marketing or patient management > skills, not " real " clinical performance. It may indeed be an useful measure of clinical performance, but I believe this would still tell us nothing about the role of education. Because clinical success (in terms of patients getting well, not just practitioners getting rich) is also largely independent of one's education. The same practitioners I mentioned who happen to have had meager educations, yet great financial success are also excellent clinicians whose patients are completely satisfied. So their clinical performance is not in question, nor is it masked by the other factors. It just appears to have nothing to do with their " education " , per se. My point is that none of these factors tells us much about the role of training in one's success But these are anecdotes, so .... I am still interested in such a survey for several reasons. And I would certainly be curious to see if those who trained more recently (thus receiving a more rigorous education than when I was in school) actually do better financially and clinically than those trained earlier. I suspect the issue of deciding who is more or lesser trained would be the hardest part of such a study. And therein lies the rub. If the purpose of such a study is to identify whether improving educational standards translates to increased financial success, we have to first rank the curriculums of all the acupuncture schools according to some criteria. And compare these to all the prior curriculums over the past 20 years or so. Account for CE and clinical experience and self-study. and also, to be fair, consider the marketing plans of each respondent. I mean if a person failed because they did no marketing, it would erroneous to conclude their education in TCM was lacking. It certainly wouldn't hurt just to do an initial survey very basic. Net income from working in the field (many practitioners will report gross income, especially when attempting to sell their practices), year of graduation, degree completed (if any), accreditation of school. We could then consider the other very important issues later, if necessary. Bob would be right if the initial survey showed overwhelmingly that those with master's degrees far outstripped those who went to 1800 hour programs in the eighties. I would be real curious to see if this true. I suspect the survey would yield less stark results than this and the other issues I mentioned would become of paramount importance in sorting out the matter. Finally, a good survey would have to be statistically significant. Since there is no way to get a large number of our colleagues to comply with this, we have to determine what constituted a respresentative sample of ages, prior education and careers, etc. I do not believe the type of polling used at Acupunture Today, for example, is of any relevance since the respndents are self selected. A survey of the self-selected, which all prior surveys of this type in our field were, I believe, would be worse than useless because it would lead to erroneous conclusions and possibly policy changes as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 That is correct. I'll see you then. Or meet me at the hotel up the street. Z'ev On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 09:31 AM, wrote: > , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> > wrote: > I cannot > > >believe either that there is nothing left to learn or that there is > no will to > > >improve. > > > You know. I didn't say that, either. I said that entry level > education is not going to add medical chinese unless it > becomes a public safety issue. There is way too much > disagreement on this point to ever see this change made for > purely academic reasons. And it is not even a matter of waiting > for the old guard to retire, because the new guard is just as > ambivalent about this matter. I personally think Chinese should > be taught at the masters and have said so many times, even if it > means eliminating massage and qi gong classes. > > In fact, there is quite a will to improve, but it only occurs within > certain boundaries. For example, with broad support from the > faculty, PCOM has moved into a case based learning model with > heavy emphasis on integrative medicine and the results have > been impressive so far. Not everyone liked this and other > changes and some have moved on, but the point is that we > agreed this was desirable and we made it happen. There is no > such consensus (obviously, if this list is an example) on the > issue of medical chinese at the master's level. In fact, the > consensus must be against this inclusion because almost no > school does it. > > I think the style of education we are now applying at PCOM is > more focused on critical thinking so students can assess a > novel clinical event and know what resources to consult for > accurate info (like the PD and sionneau, for example). It is > developing this critical thinking skill that is the most important > responsibility of the schools, I think. Learning this skill within the > context of TCM allows the clinician to understand and utilize any > " data " they access. I don't think it's about learning more > " details " , but learning how to use those " details " effectively. > > > <image.tiff> > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 Sorry. . .went to the wrong address. This is for a meeting with an acupuncture colleague in Denver. Z'ev On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 11:25 AM, wrote: > That is correct. I'll see you then. Or meet me at the hotel up the > street. > > Z'ev > On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 09:31 AM, wrote: > >> , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> >> wrote: >> I cannot >> > >believe either that there is nothing left to learn or that there is >> no will to >> > >improve. >> >> >> You know. I didn't say that, either. I said that entry level >> education is not going to add medical chinese unless it >> becomes a public safety issue. There is way too much >> disagreement on this point to ever see this change made for >> purely academic reasons. And it is not even a matter of waiting >> for the old guard to retire, because the new guard is just as >> ambivalent about this matter. I personally think Chinese should >> be taught at the masters and have said so many times, even if it >> means eliminating massage and qi gong classes. >> >> In fact, there is quite a will to improve, but it only occurs within >> certain boundaries. For example, with broad support from the >> faculty, PCOM has moved into a case based learning model with >> heavy emphasis on integrative medicine and the results have >> been impressive so far. Not everyone liked this and other >> changes and some have moved on, but the point is that we >> agreed this was desirable and we made it happen. There is no >> such consensus (obviously, if this list is an example) on the >> issue of medical chinese at the master's level. In fact, the >> consensus must be against this inclusion because almost no >> school does it. >> >> I think the style of education we are now applying at PCOM is >> more focused on critical thinking so students can assess a >> novel clinical event and know what resources to consult for >> accurate info (like the PD and sionneau, for example). It is >> developing this critical thinking skill that is the most important >> responsibility of the schools, I think. Learning this skill within >> the >> context of TCM allows the clinician to understand and utilize any >> " data " they access. I don't think it's about learning more >> " details " , but learning how to use those " details " effectively. >> > >> >> > <image.tiff> >> >> >> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed >> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate >> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety >> of professional services, including board approved online continuing >> education. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 " The same practitioners I mentioned who happen to have had meager educations, yet great financial success are also excellent clinicians whose patients are completely satisfied. " > This is an excellent point. Therefore; what is success? I suggest that a practice be viewed as " successful " primarily based on treatment results and secondarily on financial numbers. Is success based solely on patient satisfaction? What about practitioner satisfaction in the pursuit of excellence? This is certainly a complicated issue worthy of further exploration. Mark Fradkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Mark et al., Your point is a good one. I think that different surveys might be used to determine different things. There could be one survey for patient satisfaction, another survey for financial success, and a third survey for practitioner satisfaction. Success is too broad a term connoting different things to different persons unless the type of success is specified. That being said, I do think a survey of net and gross earnings, numbers of patients per week, type of practice setting, and five and 10 year retention rates within the profession post graduation would be useful in terms of overall professional development. It's hard to know where you're going if you don't have a clear idea of where you are. Bob , " fradkin724 " <mfrad@b...> wrote: > " The same practitioners I mentioned who happen to have had meager > educations, yet great financial success are also excellent clinicians > whose patients are completely satisfied. " > > > > > This is an excellent point. Therefore; what is success? I suggest > that a practice be viewed as " successful " primarily based on > treatment > results and secondarily on financial numbers. Is success based solely > on patient satisfaction? What about practitioner satisfaction in the > pursuit of excellence? > > This is certainly a complicated issue worthy of further exploration. > > Mark Fradkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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