Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 > Western science recognizes them. western med is just catching > up. Well said. The holism of western science culminates in the idea of a single explanation for the universe, the theory of a unified field. In " not mainstream " writers like Sheldrake, you can see the same attempt at integration in biology. In chaos theory, systems and information theory, there are practical technologies developing, for example, methods of organizing data, that are highly multi-variable and highly integrated. Friedman and Birch's phenomenological equasions for channel properties and Manaka's application of system theory to acupuncture are good examples of highly holistic thinking in CM. There will a conference in the PRC next Fall that will discuss the application of chaos theory to CM. Biomedicine, however, has the huge infrastructure that must be brought along with any change, and that makes things move quite slowly. Bob Bob bob Paradigm Publications www.paradigm-pubs.com 44 Linden Street Robert L. Felt Brookline MA 02445 617-738-4664 --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 Bob, and anyone else who's interested in this thread... > > > Western science recognizes them. western med is just catching > > up. > > Well said. I wonder what markers we can look at to decide whether or not Todd's last sentence is accurate. Is western medicine catching up with science? .... There will a conference in the > PRC next Fall that will discuss the application of chaos theory to CM. A couple weeks back I attended a confernce on intervention and adaptation in complex systems in Beijing. The second paper presented was on " The Complexity of " . It was delivered by Jiang Sheng Hua who is a member of the standing committee of the national people's congress. So, in a couple of important ways, the discussion has already gotten going. And it turns out there is a fairly well established theme among contemporary Chinese intellectuals that explores the relative values and potentials of ancient and contemporary ways of knowledge. We are planning to hold a meeting to forward this discussion about such comparisons, particularly as they relate traditional Chinese medicine and complex systems science. I've already written of my interest in this in a piece that was recently published in CAOM. So I won't elaborate my interests here. But if there is anyone who would like to get involved, you can contact me privately or we can take it up on the Complexity and list. Or if you are going to be at the PCOM symposium this week in San Diego come by the Redwing booth and if I'm not there, leave me a message. There are some things going on in China now that I think people on this list will and should be quite interested, not to mention involved in. I'm going to be writing these things up for an upcoming editorial in CAOM. But this thread deals with a couple of themes that are involved in some pretty interesting current events and possible future developments in the field. And I'd very much appreciate the chance to talk about this with folks who are interested. > Biomedicine, however, has the huge infrastructure that must be brought > along with any change, and that makes things move quite slowly. Yeah. That was the point I was trying to make. Todd says that they're catching up and I think I know what you mean, Todd. But I just wonder...are they? And when you come down to it, catching up with what? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 dear Robert and list Robert: Friedman and Birch's phenomenological equasions for channel properties and Manaka's application of system theory to acupuncture are good examples of highly holistic thinking in CM. There will a conference in the PRC next Fall that will discuss the application of chaos theory to CM. Marco: Very interesting only recently I was able to obtain Chasing the Dragon Manaka et. al. is this the reference work you are referring to with regard to Manaka and Birch? with regard to: Friedman and Birch's phenomenological equasions for channel properties Where can I find written information? Or can you elaborate or any one else care to? below is a link to an article: http://www.medicinechinese.com/A55800/libr.nsf/5cf026093cd2b2f085256a1c00759b10/e0b85de3ad0d839785256a2c007c388f!OpenDocument Entitle - A Mathematical Model to Quantify the Generative and Restrictive Relationships between the Five Zangs Zhang-Qiming (Shandong University of Traditional Jinan 250014 China) It may be of interest any comments or elaborations or summery and or clarifications are both welcome and appropriate for this type of list... Marco Bergh - Robert L. Felt Monday, November 04, 2002 11:40 AM Science - holism > Western science recognizes them. western med is just catching> up.Well said. The holism of western science culminates in the idea of a single explanation for the universe, the theory of a unified field. In "not mainstream" writers like Sheldrake, you can see the same attempt at integration in biology. In chaos theory, systems and information theory, there are practical technologies developing, for example, methods of organizing data, that are highly multi-variable and highly integrated. Friedman and Birch's phenomenological equasions for channel properties and Manaka's application of system theory to acupuncture are good examples of highly holistic thinking in CM. There will a conference in the PRC next Fall that will discuss the application of chaos theory to CM.Biomedicine, however, has the huge infrastructure that must be brought along with any change, and that makes things move quite slowly.BobBob bob Paradigm Publicationswww.paradigm-pubs.com 44 Linden StreetRobert L. Felt Brookline MA 02445617-738-4664---[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Dear Ken and Robert and List... Robert: .... There will a conference in the > PRC next Fall that will discuss the application of chaos theory to CM. Ken: A couple weeks back I attended a conferenceon intervention and adaptation in complexsystems in Beijing. The second paper presented wason "The Complexity of ".It was delivered by Jiang Sheng Hua who This is indeed something that begs to be elaborated on. Are there any web reading (up) one can do on these topics? One good and interesting article is by James Ramholz which can be access by subscribing to his pulse list, but are anyone aware of other articles or longer essays? Ken have you or can you translate some works by the Chinese specialists? Robert will you participate in the conference next year? At a university in Australia there is something being done on this Find out more by following the link): http://www.newcastle.edu.au/centre/casrg/index.html However they have not made any article/essay available via the internet, maybe there is an Ozzy (not sure why Australians are referred to as Ozzy´s, if its incorrect or offensive forget I wrote it) out there that can make something available if you happen to be on the course? Or are there other departments and or Universities that have something similar to Newcastle University Australia?. Not to go on about a Australia but they seam to be very advanced in their approach to Chinese medicine any thoughts comments as to why and as to why a country like Sweden are so un-advance both interms of clinical practice and view-approach to Chinese medicine. There are of course a high probability that someone in Sweden also have a very sain approach and know how to but I mean in general terms and with regard to the educational and public health care systems. I am asking because although every country, but of course are different, the program we are doing is trying to promote "alternative Medicine" and any lessons learnt via history or otherwise is actually needed in Guatemala. For example here in Guatemala some people will make educational recommendations and Although I am far from even beginner in the Chinese medical language one recommendation and hopefully implementation will be for any further educational undergraduate program to have "relevant" language-linguistical course and graduate with "sufficient" Chinese medical language skill... Here again Australia and I think Canada are way ahead of the big Giant of the West although hopefully for people in the USA it is probably just a question of time... Ken: you mention a list or web site about Chinese medicine and Complexity less I am mistaking in a previous letter to the list. Do you have the address? And finally is medicine East West and so forth science per say? I "thought" that they are disciplines that borrows from science and other human interpretations of life but a pure science as such is rather "Newton Marxistic" world view or? Marco - dragon90405 Monday, November 04, 2002 10:07 PM Re: Science - holism Bob, and anyone else who's interested in this thread...> > > Western science recognizes them. western med is just catching> > up.> > Well said.I wonder what markers we can look atto decide whether or not Todd's lastsentence is accurate. Is western medicine catching upwith science? ... There will a conference in the > PRC next Fall that will discuss the application of chaos theory to CM.A couple weeks back I attended a confernceon intervention and adaptation in complexsystems in Beijing. The second paper presented wason "The Complexity of ".It was delivered by Jiang Sheng Hua whois a member of the standing committeeof the national people's congress.So, in a couple of important ways, thediscussion has already gotten going. Andit turns out there is a fairly well establishedtheme among contemporary Chinese intellectualsthat explores the relative values and potentialsof ancient and contemporary ways of knowledge.We are planning to hold a meeting to forwardthis discussion about such comparisons, particularlyas they relate traditional Chinese medicineand complex systems science. I've alreadywritten of my interest in this in a piecethat was recently published in CAOM. So Iwon't elaborate my interests here. But if there is anyone who would liketo get involved, you can contact me privatelyor we can take it up on the Complexity and list. Or if you are goingto be at the PCOM symposium this weekin San Diego come by the Redwing boothand if I'm not there, leave me a message. There are some things going on in Chinanow that I think people on this list willand should be quite interested, not to mentioninvolved in. I'm going to be writing thesethings up for an upcoming editorial inCAOM. But this thread deals with a coupleof themes that are involved in some prettyinteresting current events and possiblefuture developments in the field. And I'd very much appreciate the chance to talk aboutthis with folks who are interested.> Biomedicine, however, has the huge infrastructure that must be brought > along with any change, and that makes things move quite slowly.Yeah. That was the point I was trying tomake. Todd says that they're catching upand I think I know what you mean, Todd.But I just wonder...are they? And whenyou come down to it, catching up withwhat?KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Hi Marco, > Ken: > A couple weeks back I attended a conference > on intervention and adaptation in complex > systems in Beijing. The second paper presented was > on " The Complexity of " . > It was delivered by Jiang Sheng Hua who > > This is indeed something that begs to be elaborated on. > > Are there any web reading (up) one can do on these topics? There are several articles in the most recent edition of CAOM dealing with complexity and complex systems science and Chinese medicine. I'm currently conducting a search of available literature on this and related topics and will share whatever I find. > > One good and interesting article is by James Ramholz which can be access by subscribing to his pulse list, but are anyone aware of other articles or longer essays? > > Ken have you or can you translate some works by the Chinese specialists? Working on it... > > Robert will you participate in the conference next year? > > At a university in Australia there is something being done on this Find out more by following the link): > > http://www.newcastle.edu.au/centre/casrg/index.html I'll check it out. Thanks. > > However they have not made any article/essay available via the internet, maybe there is an Ozzy (not sure why Australians are referred to as Ozzy´s, if its incorrect or offensive forget I wrote it) out there that can make something available if you happen to be on the course? > > Or are there other departments and or Universities that have something similar to Newcastle University Australia?. > > Not to go on about a Australia but they seam to be very advanced in their approach to Chinese medicine any thoughts comments as to why and as to why a country like Sweden are so un-advance both interms of clinical practice and view-approach to Chinese medicine. There are of course a high probability that someone in Sweden also have a very sain approach and know how to but I mean in general terms and with regard to the educational and public health care systems. AUStralia, in AUStralian becomes Oztralian, if you follow. The Chinese have been in Oz for a long time and there is a robust community there which has played an important role in the acculturation of Chinese medicine in contemporary society. No doubt Ray can elaborate. > > I am asking because although every country, but of course are different, the program we are doing is trying to promote " alternative Medicine " and any lessons learnt via history or otherwise is actually needed in Guatemala. I've got a fried who lives in Sweden and is interested in all of this. I'll see if I can track him down and get his perspective on the Chinese medicine scene there. > > For example here in Guatemala some people will make educational recommendations and Although I am far from even beginner in the Chinese medical language one recommendation and hopefully implementation will be for any further educational undergraduate program to have " relevant " language-linguistical course and graduate with " sufficient " Chinese medical language skill... Well, this certainly makes sense to me. > > Here again Australia and I think Canada are way ahead of the big Giant of the West although hopefully for people in the USA it is probably just a question of time... We can only wait and see... > > Ken: you mention a list or web site about Chinese medicine and Complexity less I am mistaking in a previous letter to the list. > > Do you have the address? Complexity_and_Chinese_Medicine/? yguid=36564949 > > And finally is medicine East West and so forth science per say? > > I " thought " that they are disciplines that borrows from science and other human interpretations of life but a pure science as such is rather " Newton Marxistic " world view or? I tend to agree. This is the kind of consideration that promted me to pose the question earlier to Todd as to what sort of markers or indications he sees that support his conclusion that medicine is generally " catching up " with science. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Ken I have a question for you Do we really know the dates and sophistication of sciences of ancient times. i.e. that the Chinese predated much of the west, since we do not know much about the builders of the pyramids, stoneheadge etc? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2002 Report Share Posted November 23, 2002 Dear Robert, I may have missed the response and or comment if it warrant one... hence apologise for repeating the following: Robert: Friedman and Birch's phenomenological equasions for channel properties and Manaka's application of system theory to acupuncture are good examples of highly holistic thinking in CM. There will a conference in the PRC next Fall that will discuss the application of chaos theory to CM. Marco: Very interesting only recently I was able to obtain Chasing the Dragon Manaka et. al. is this the reference work you are referring to with regard to Manaka and Birch? with regard to: Friedman and Birch's phenomenological equasions for channel properties Where can I find written information? Or can you elaborate or any one else care to? below is a link to an article: http://www.medicinechinese.com/A55800/libr.nsf/5cf026093cd2b2f085256a1c00759b10/e0b85de3ad0d839785256a2c007c388f!OpenDocument Entitle - A Mathematical Model to Quantify the Generative and Restrictive Relationships between the Five Zangs Zhang-Qiming (Shandong University of Traditional Jinan 250014 China) It may be of interest any comments or elaborations or summery and or clarifications are both welcome and appropriate for this type of list... Marco Bergh By the has any one any comments on the above link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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