Shang Han Sweating

[Guest guest]

Simple question here - what does 'absense of sweating' mean? If I have a WC excess EPI (Ma Huang Tang type) and I go work out, will I sweat or not? If I do sweat, has the mission been accomplished (exterior released), or will the pathogen only be released by diaphoretic actions caused by herbs?

 

Geoff

[Guest guest]

A good question. If one examines the two major tai yang disease

patterns, one sees that sweating or no sweating is one of the rubrics

that distinguishes a vacuity from repletion exterior pattern. However,

there are other signs as well, such as a floating strong and tight

pulse for a repletion pattern, and a floating, thin to moderate pulse

for a vacuity pattern. You can look up the other symptoms in the

introductory material in the Mitchell/Wiseman/Feng translation of the

Shang Han Lun.

 

Most likely, exertion and working out will not produce sweat (in a

strong individual with difficulty sweating) unless done to the extreme

( a heated gym doing strenuous exercise). Otherwise, it will be

noticably more difficult to produce sweat. Some vacuity tai yang

disease pattern individuals will sweat just on exposure to a breeze.

There are obviously different degrees of this symptom according to

season, constitution, severity of the wind/cold damage, etc.

 

While sweating from exercise may help relieve an exterior pattern,

remember there are other symptoms such as wheezing, coughing, stuffy

nose, or aching joints that may not be relieved.

 

 

 

 

On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 12:56 PM, Geoffrey Hudson wrote:

 

> Simple question here - what does 'absense of sweating' mean?  If I

> have a WC excess EPI (Ma Huang Tang type) and I go work out, will I

> sweat or not?  If I do sweat, has the mission been accomplished

> (exterior released), or will the pathogen only be released by

> diaphoretic actions caused by herbs?

>  

> Geoff

[Guest guest]

Z'ev -

 

This is one of the common problems with Americans using the Shang Han Lun (SHL) model. Sweating or not distinguishes between wind strike and cold damage respectively rather than vacuity and repletion patterns of wind and cold conflated in the context of an exterior pattern. This comment is supported by one of my mentors, Yang Maiqing who I have cited before on SHL theory, and - it is reflected in the Wisemen, Feng, Mithchel text.

 

And - while I concur with you that the pulse could be thin to moderate in what I assume you mean to be a wind strike, the text states floating and moderate (Hammer would call this yielding - in agreement, I think this is more appropriate). A thin quality relates more likely to an underlying blood deficiency which can predispose an individual to wind strike.

 

Will

 

PS: On another note. Maybe we could do an SHL (vs SNL) skit. That includes Shang Han Za Bing in entirety. There could be scatalogical and code yellow jokes generated from the formulary.

 

 

A good question. If one examines the two major tai yang disease patterns, one sees that sweating or no sweating is one of the rubrics that distinguishes a vacuity from repletion exterior pattern.

[Guest guest]

Can you list some of

the other common problems with Americans

using the Shang Han Lung?

 

 

1. Correct identification of a tight pulse (inability to describe it or correctly identify it without supervision)

2. Correct identification of a cold pattern vs heat pattern (calling it wind heat)

3. Correct identification of a mixed heat and cold pattern (calling it wind heat)

4. Confusing a lesser yang pattern with a tai yang pattern.

5. Attempting to call complex, mixed stage patterns a single pattern

6. Thinking the material unrelated to practice in southern California

 

 

Sweating or not distinguishes between wind strike and cold > damage respectively rather than vacuity and repletion patterns of wind and > cold conflated in the context of an exterior pattern. This comment is > supported by one of my mentors, Yang Maiqing who I have cited before on SHL > theory, and - it is reflected in the Wisemen, Feng, Mithchel text.

 

I'm confused a bit. Can you make

reference to the Chinese terms

you are talking about here? It

will help me understand what this

comment actually comments on.

 

 

 

 

wind strike = zhong feng

cold damage = shang han

exterior pattern = tai yang bing

 

 

>

> And - while I concur with you that the pulse could be thin to moderate in > what I assume you mean to be a wind strike, the text states floating and > moderate (Hammer would call this yielding - in agreement, I think this is > more appropriate).

 

So you mean that Hammer and you are

using a different English equivalent

for the same Chinese term? Or are you

making reference to a different term

and concept in Chinese? And what is

the Chinese?

 

 

I am saying I agree with Hammer that a good English term for the sensation is yielding. The Chinese is mai huan zhe - Hammer does not associate moderate with yielding, rather, he states that yielding is a new term that describes the give under pressure from the fingers.

 

A thin quality relates more likely to an underlying blood > deficiency which can predispose an individual to wind strike.

 

I just got confused reading the post and

it will help me if you cite the

Chinese terms.

 

 

 

 

 

> > Will

> > PS: On another note. Maybe we could do an SHL (vs SNL) skit. That includes > Shang Han Za Bing in entirety. There could be scatalogical and code yellow

 

Now, that I would watch. Heck, I

might even engage you to do it

for the TV program I'm working on.

 

Ke

 

Well, that could be fun. And Julie, before Arlington? This is a thought for which no development has taken place. I would love to play, let's take some time and do it right. Any closet comedy writers out there?

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Z'ev -

 

 

So while I appreciate your further clarification of the issue of sweating and no sweating by correctly pointing out the difference between wind strike and cold damage, we see here that wind strike is also referred to as a tai yang exterior vacuity pattern.

 

OK - I know I'm getting nit picky here, but, the text states that the stellium of symptoms is often called tai yang xu, not that zhong feng is tai yang xu. In addition, it states that spontaneous sweating is wind strike with and underlying deficiency of of ying qi.

"Greater yang disease takes different forms. Heat effusion, sweating, aversion to wind, and a pulse that is floating and moderate is known as greater yang wind strike and ALSO (caps are mine for emphasis)

referred to as a greater yang exterior vacuity pattern."

 

Our resident SHL teacher Zhang Ji often gets on a rant about confusing tai yang xu with zhong feng. I just hired a PhD in SHL for the clinic, I will raise the issue to her for clarification.

 

Elsewhere in the text, this pattern is later called a "gui zhi tang (Cinnamon Twig Decoction) pattern."

 

 

It is a common practice to name the pattern after the formula.

 

By the way, she says that the use of si ni san in shao yin stage is not academic, it is practical although rare. Yang Maiqing claimed it is absolutely part of the shao yin stage and did research on cardiopathology and increased lifespan using si ni san to prevent cardiac failure in the shao yin stage.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Will said:

 

 

On another note. Maybe we could do an SHL (vs SNL) skit. That includes Shang Han Za Bing in entirety. There could be scatalogical and code yellow jokes generated from the formulary. Julie queries:

 

Can you get it together in time for the meetings in Arlington this month?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Will,

 

> This is one of the common problems with Americans using the Shang

Han Lun

> (SHL) model.

 

I'm trying to get a caught up on recent

postings. Forgive me if I'm asking you

to repeat something you've said already

but I've missed. Can you list some of

the other common problems with Americans

using the Shang Han Lung?

 

Sweating or not distinguishes between wind strike and cold

> damage respectively rather than vacuity and repletion patterns of

wind and

> cold conflated in the context of an exterior pattern. This comment

is

> supported by one of my mentors, Yang Maiqing who I have cited

before on SHL

> theory, and - it is reflected in the Wisemen, Feng, Mithchel text.

 

I'm confused a bit. Can you make

reference to the Chinese terms

you are talking about here? It

will help me understand what this

comment actually comments on.

>

> And - while I concur with you that the pulse could be thin to

moderate in

> what I assume you mean to be a wind strike, the text states

floating and

> moderate (Hammer would call this yielding - in agreement, I think

this is

> more appropriate).

 

So you mean that Hammer and you are

using a different English equivalent

for the same Chinese term? Or are you

making reference to a different term

and concept in Chinese? And what is

the Chinese?

 

A thin quality relates more likely to an underlying blood

> deficiency which can predispose an individual to wind strike.

 

I just got confused reading the post and

it will help me if you cite the

Chinese terms.

 

 

>

> Will

>

> PS: On another note. Maybe we could do an SHL (vs SNL) skit. That

includes

> Shang Han Za Bing in entirety. There could be scatalogical and code

yellow

 

 

Now, that I would watch. Heck, I

might even engage you to do it

for the TV program I'm working on.

 

Ken

>

[Guest guest]

Will,

To quote the Wiseman/Feng/Mitchell SHL text, pg. 44:

 

" Greater yang disease takes different forms. Heat effusion, sweating,

aversion to wind, and a pulse that is floating and moderate is known as

greater yang wind strike and ALSO (caps are mine for emphasis)

referred to as a greater yang exterior vacuity pattern. "

 

So while I appreciate your further clarification of the issue of

sweating and no sweating by correctly pointing out the difference

between wind strike and cold damage, we see here that wind strike is

also referred to as a tai yang exterior vacuity pattern.

 

Elsewhere in the text, this pattern is later called a " gui zhi tang

(Cinnamon Twig Decoction) pattern. "

 

 

On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 08:21 PM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> This is one of the common problems with Americans using the Shang Han

> Lun (SHL) model. Sweating or not distinguishes between wind strike and

> cold damage respectively rather than vacuity and repletion patterns of

> wind and cold conflated in the context of an exterior pattern. This

> comment is supported by one of my mentors, Yang Maiqing who I have

> cited before on SHL theory, and - it is reflected in the Wisemen,

> Feng, Mithchel text.

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

 

> I'm confused a bit. Can you make

> reference to the Chinese terms

> you are talking about here?

 

Will: wind strike and cold

> > damage respectively rather than vacuity and repletion thchel text.

>

 

: This is wiseman terminology. It shouldn't have to be translated back

into pinyin for further clarity. Let's agree from here on in to either use

wiseman terminology when referring to technical terms or define any

nonstandard term choices in our posts to avoid further confusion. This is the

current publishing standard in the field. Obvious exceptions include terms

like excess and deficiency, which, while nonstandard, are so common as to

avoid any possible confusion. We can then assume the poster is using

wiseman terminology. If you still can't make sense from the post, then ask for

clarity. In this case, cold damage is actually shang han from the title of the

book.

 

[Guest guest]

Rory -

 

Don't you mean si ni tang?

 

 

No .....this is often what practitioners think, 'I either heard it wrong or he said it wrong.' Si ni san is the formula, look at Feng Ye pg 469 : "reversal from yang depression with cold limbs, cough, palpitations, inhibited urination, pain in the abdomen, and diarrhea with heaviness: counterflow powder (si ni san)." It continues on pgs 511-513 concerning transmuted Shao Yin patterns.

 

There seems to be an argument that si ni san is discussed in the shao yin stage for academic purposes only, that Zhang was contrasting and comparing. This is the position of two practitioners I know from Beijing - Yang Tiande and Qiao Yi. However, two practitioners from the Guang Zhuo area, Dina Tang (PhD in SHL) and Yang Maiqing (spent his life practicing SHL with tutelage and lineage in the subject) maintain that the discussion is academic; they both have clinical and research experience treating with si ni san at the shao yin stage.

Will

[Guest guest]

At 2:50 AM -0500 11/5/02,

WMorris116 wrote:

By the way, she says that the use of si ni san in shao

yin stage is not academic, it is practical although rare. Yang Maiqing

claimed it is absolutely part of the shao yin stage and did research

on cardiopathology and increased lifespan using si ni san to prevent

cardiac failure in the shao yin stage.

--

 

Don't you mean si ni tang?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Such discussions are of great interest to me. I am hoping that the

discourse on Chinese medicine in the West has entered a new, more

advanced stage, where we can study and discuss the findings of such

eminent scholars of the classics such as these, as well as our own

experiences with the texts and the practice of the medicine.

 

 

On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 07:08 AM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> There seems to be an argument that si ni san is discussed in the shao

> yin stage for academic purposes only, that Zhang was contrasting and

> comparing. This is the position of two practitioners I know from

> Beijing - Yang Tiande and Qiao Yi. However, two practitioners from the

> Guang Zhuo area, Dina Tang (PhD in SHL) and Yang Maiqing (spent his

> life practicing SHL with tutelage and lineage in the subject) maintain

> that the discussion is academic; they both have clinical and research

> experience treating with si ni san at the shao yin stage.

[Guest guest]

> At 2:50 AM -0500 11/5/02, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> >By the way, she says that the use of si ni san in shao yin stage is

> >not academic, it is practical although rare. Yang Maiqing claimed it

> >is absolutely part of the shao yin stage

 

Jason

 

Do you know Min Fan's position on this point? I believe Heiner Fruehauf

considered si ni san to be a shaoyang formula. My formula notes from him

say that the inclusion of si ni san in the shaoyin chapter is indeed merely a

reminder that not all cold limbs are yang xu, but can also be due to

obstruction of the LV/GB channels. He considers this a purely repletion

condition. This was the opinion of about half a dozen teachers from Chengdu

I know, including Bensky's professor, Dr. Ma. This also seems to be implicit in

Bensky's F & S. The formula was used to treat AIDS patients at ITM in the early

90's, but only because they were presenting with liver qi depression and

blood stasis that had been misdiagnosed as vacuity. I wonder what Craig

thinks about this.

 

[Guest guest]

you guys have a sense of humor. I would have never guessed. :-)

 

, Julie Chambers <info@j...> wrote:

> Will said:

>

>

> On another note. Maybe we could do an SHL (vs SNL) skit. That includes

Shang Han Za Bing in entirety. There could be scatalogical and code yellow

jokes generated from the formulary.

>

> Julie queries:

>

> Can you get it together in time for the meetings in Arlington this month?

[Guest guest]

, " Geoffrey Hudson " <list@a...> wrote:

> Simple question here - what does 'absense of sweating' mean? If I have

> a WC excess EPI (Ma Huang Tang type) and I go work out, will I sweat or

> not?

 

absence of sweating means sweating is not present in a pattern where it is a

possibility. so it is whether you are sweating at rest or not when having a

fever that distinguishes gui zhi tang and ma huang tang. It is not whether you

can induce sweating by exercise or sauna. Ma huang tang also induces

sweating, but we still say the patient being treated has " absence of sweating " .

another example would be if a person exerts themselves and does not sweat.

one would expect exertion to cause sweating, so the naturally expected

sweating would be absent. but this is an internal pattern and has nothing to

do with shanghan, per se.

 

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

> Can you list some of

> the other common problems with Americans

> using the Shang Han Lung?

>

>

> 1. Correct identification of a tight pulse (inability to describe it or

> correctly identify it without supervision)

 

yes. many call wiry pulses tight. part of this is terminology discrepancies

between professors. however, the tight pulse may be taught differently at

PCOM than I learned it (many students tell me that is similar to wiry, but more

forceful; I learned it to be twisting in quality and that force was not a

determinant)

 

> 3. Correct identification of a mixed heat and cold pattern (calling it wind

> heat)

 

very common. in my experience, most colds in adults begin as wind cold that

combines with or transforms to heat. true windheat from the outset seems

rare in the healthy adult.

 

 

> 5. Attempting to call complex, mixed stage patterns a single pattern

 

this raises a critical point. where do SHL studies belong in one's training.

While SHL forms the foundation of TCM, the actual application of this book

and the JGYL are more complex than the modern TCM approach. this

suggest that this material is advanced and we may not be able to expect

master's level students to master it before graduation. If one has not gained

some mastery over this material, then one's application will be quite faulty,

such as Will's examples above. People should not play fast and loose with

this material. I hear too many ideas about how to use the SHL being floated

by persons who have never studied the actual texts (I don't mean you guys,

but others whom I have read over the years). I think all of us americans will

admit that we did not gain a handle on this material until AFTER we

graduated from school.

 

[Guest guest]

> you guys have a sense of humor. I would have never guessed. :-)

>

 

 

Oh, once in a while it comes out.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 10:09 AM, wrote:

 

>>

>>

>>

>> 1. Correct identification of a tight pulse (inability to describe it

>> or

>> correctly identify it without supervision)

>

> yes. many call wiry pulses tight. part of this is terminology

> discrepancies

> between professors. however, the tight pulse may be taught

> differently at

> PCOM than I learned it (many students tell me that is similar to wiry,

> but more

> forceful; I learned it to be twisting in quality and that force was

> not a

> determinant)

 

A xian mai wiry (bowstring) pulse can be thin, a jin mai/tight pulse

never is. While the tight pulse is often twisting left and right,

Wiseman considers the tight pulse to be a replete wiry pulse.

>

>> 3. Correct identification of a mixed heat and cold pattern (calling

>> it wind

>> heat)

>

> very common. in my experience, most colds in adults begin as wind

> cold that

> combines with or transforms to heat. true windheat from the outset

> seems

> rare in the healthy adult.

 

You do see wind/heat here in southern California, when the santa ana

winds blow off the deserts from the east, increasing heat and vastly

lowering humidities.

>

>

>> 5. Attempting to call complex, mixed stage patterns a single pattern

>

> this raises a critical point. where do SHL studies belong in one's

> training.

> While SHL forms the foundation of TCM, the actual application of this

> book

> and the JGYL are more complex than the modern TCM approach. this

> suggest that this material is advanced and we may not be able to expect

> master's level students to master it before graduation. If one has

> not gained

> some mastery over this material, then one's application will be quite

> faulty,

> such as Will's examples above. People should not play fast and loose

> with

> this material. I hear too many ideas about how to use the SHL being

> floated

> by persons who have never studied the actual texts (I don't mean you

> guys,

> but others whom I have read over the years). I think all of us

> americans will

> admit that we did not gain a handle on this material until AFTER we

> graduated from school.

>

Your comments here make a good case for a comprehensive doctorate

program. We are adding a SHL/WB course to the cirriculum for third

year at PCOM.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Please excuse the intrusion of a non-academic but licensed by the Great

State of California struggling practitioner.

 

Shan Han Sweating

and is the pathogen only released by diaphoretic actions caused by herbs?

 

In the case of a WC excess EPI (Ma Huang Tang type) sweating induced at a

work out in a gym the exterior could be released. But if one then takes a

cooling shower (after a strenuous work out) and walks outside in the chilly

air - not following the prescription -induce _mild_ sweat and REST. then one

makes the condition worse.

 

Am I wrong in the belief that the magic is in the reaction caused by the

herbs not the herbs themselves, therefore a workout producing sweat or a

steam bath producing a sweat achieves the same affect. Note that the

prescription calls for a mild sweating and _rest_ and the SHL goes on to

give remedies (indications) for incorrect/overuse treatments.

 

Geoff thanks for the question.

 

Ed Kasper LAc

Santa Cruz, CA.

 

 

 

Message: 4

Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:56:45 -0800

" Geoffrey Hudson " <list

Shang Han Sweating

 

Simple question here - what does 'absense of sweating' mean? If I have a WC

excess EPI (Ma Huang Tang type) and I go work out, will I sweat or not? If

I do sweat, has the mission been accomplished (exterior released), or will

the pathogen only be released by diaphoretic actions caused by herbs?

 

Geoff

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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[Guest guest]

Dear Ed,

One of the points I was making in the last post is that the SHL

herbal prescription is a combination of medicinals to address

complexities of a pattern, including sweating. Sweating alone is not

the goal of the treatment. For example, in ma huang tang, the goal is

to open the exterior, diffuse the lung qi, and supplement spleen and

stomach qi.

Sweating without these other supportive actions will not correctly

dispel the disease evil.

 

 

On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 11:23 AM, Ed Kasper LAc. wrote:

 

>

>

> Am I wrong in the belief that the magic is in the reaction caused by

> the

> herbs not the herbs themselves, therefore a workout producing sweat or

> a

> steam bath producing a sweat achieves the same affect. Note that the

> prescription calls for a mild sweating and _rest_ and the SHL goes on

> to

> give remedies (indications) for incorrect/overuse treatments.

>

> Geoff thanks for the question.

>

> Ed Kasper LAc

> Santa Cruz, CA.

>

>

>

> Message: 4

> Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:56:45 -0800

> " Geoffrey Hudson " <list

> Shang Han Sweating

>

> Simple question here - what does 'absense of sweating' mean? If I

> have a WC

> excess EPI (Ma Huang Tang type) and I go work out, will I sweat or

> not? If

> I do sweat, has the mission been accomplished (exterior released), or

> will

> the pathogen only be released by diaphoretic actions caused by herbs?

>

> Geoff

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release 10/31/2002

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think this is just limited to Americans. There was another

saying that I heard from a Vietnamese practitioner (that goes back well

before the days of Americans studying SHL), that the jist of which was,

The Shang Han Lun saved a lot of people and the Shang Han Lun killed a

lot of people. The point was that it's not easy to get the 'deeper'

level of meaning from the book, and a lot of practitioners (in Asia)

made mistakes in interpreting the SHL, as we (Americans and otherwise)

do. In Dr. Ma's class notes, he stated that there were over 600

commentaries written and interpretation of the SHL became an area of

fierce debate. He also noted that there are many versions of the books

and it had been lost and found throughout the centuries. For instance,

in clause 52, it states that if the pulse is floating and rapid, you can

induce sweating and ma huang tang is appropriate. Dr. Ma noted that

this seems like a major contraindication, and many SHL books take that

statement out. However, he goes on, there isn't anything wrong with

that statement (basically, you have to use the 4 examinations to come up

with your diagnosis, not 1).

 

I guess what I'm getting at is there are a lot of opinions and even

'good' practitioners can totally disagree (American or otherwise) - the

problems aren't limited to Americans alone.

 

And to my original question, regarding sweating. I just spoke to my

mentor and got some clarification. In Tai Yang disease, the symptoms

mention spontaneous sweating. This is si han, or 'self sweating', in

Chinese. Si han is different from 'chang (or po) han' which is

'forceful sweating'. Si han is spontaneous, sweating without apparent

reason, and chang han is induced sweating, which is normal. For

diagnosis, spontaneous sweating is the important factor to consider. He

told me that in either zhong feng or shang han, chang han would help,

same as the herbs. But - you wouldn't normally recommend people with

zhong feng or shang han to go out and exercise. I think that Z'ev is

right, if you have Shang Han, the Cold binds the pores, and chang han

sweating would be difficult to induce.

 

Geoff

 

 

 

> __________

>

> Message: 17

> Tue, 5 Nov 2002 02:33:20 EST

> WMorris116

> Re: Re: Shang Han Sweating

>

> Can you list some of

> the other common problems with Americans

> using the Shang Han Lung?

>

>

> 1. Correct identification of a tight pulse (inability to

> describe it or

> correctly identify it without supervision)

> 2. Correct identification of a cold pattern vs heat pattern

> (calling it wind

> heat)

> 3. Correct identification of a mixed heat and cold pattern

> (calling it wind

> heat)

> 4. Confusing a lesser yang pattern with a tai yang pattern.

> 5. Attempting to call complex, mixed stage patterns a single pattern

> 6. Thinking the material unrelated to practice in southern California

>

>

> > Sweating or not distinguishes between wind strike and cold

> > > damage respectively rather than vacuity and repletion patterns of

> > wind and

> > > cold conflated in the context of an exterior pattern.

> This comment

> > is

> > > supported by one of my mentors, Yang Maiqing who I have cited

> > before on SHL

> > > theory, and - it is reflected in the Wisemen, Feng, Mithchel text.

> >

> > I'm confused a bit. Can you make

> > reference to the Chinese terms

> > you are talking about here? It

> > will help me understand what this

> > comment actually comments on.

> >

> >

>

>

> wind strike = zhong feng

> cold damage = shang han

> exterior pattern = tai yang bing

>

>

> >

>

> > > And - while I concur with you that the pulse could be thin to

> > moderate in

> > > what I assume you mean to be a wind strike, the text states

> > floating and

> > > moderate (Hammer would call this yielding - in agreement, I think

> > this is

> > > more appropriate).

> >

> > So you mean that Hammer and you are

> > using a different English equivalent

> > for the same Chinese term? Or are you

> > making reference to a different term

> > and concept in Chinese? And what is

> > the Chinese?

> >

>

> I am saying I agree with Hammer that a good English term for

> the sensation is

> yielding. The Chinese is mai huan zhe - Hammer does not

> associate moderate

> with yielding, rather, he states that yielding is a new term

> that describes

> the give under pressure from the fingers.

>

> > A thin quality relates more likely to an underlying blood

> > > deficiency which can predispose an individual to wind strike.

> >

> > I just got confused reading the post and

> > it will help me if you cite the

> > Chinese terms.

[Guest guest]

Certainly true. The debate is the essence of studying medicine. As

long as it is informed debate.

 

I enjoyed your post very much, Geoffrey.

 

 

On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:40 PM, Geoffrey Hudson wrote:

 

> I guess what I'm getting at is there are a lot of opinions and even

> 'good' practitioners can totally disagree (American or otherwise) - the

> problems aren't limited to Americans alone.

[Guest guest]

Emperor's has a 40 hour SHL/Wen Bing track. Beijing TCM University has a full year of 'classics' study that is divided between SHL, Golden Cabinet, Wen Bing, and Nei Jing.

It takes years to gain working mastery over these topics. That is why I provide two supervisors in clinic who have high degree of mastery on the SHL - the esteemed Yang Tiande and the young PhD, hot shot Dina Tang. Gu Naiqiang's interest in classics is the Nei Jing, his teacher chairs the department of classics at Shanghai and is chair of the government office for Nei Jing. This way, if students have such an interest, they can pursue such studies during the clinical phase of training.

 

Will

 

Your comments here make a good case for a comprehensive doctorate program. We are adding a SHL/WB course to the cirriculum for third year at PCOM.

[Guest guest]

Z'ev -

 

According to Feng, ma huang tang opens the interstices, promotes sweating, diffuses the lungs and calms panting. What source do you have that states that it will "supplement spleen and stomach qi?"

 

Will Morris

 

Sweating alone is not

the goal of the treatment. For example, in ma huang tang, the goal is

to open the exterior, diffuse the lung qi, and supplement spleen and

stomach qi.

Sweating without these other supportive actions will not correctly

dispel the disease evil.

[Guest guest]

Z'ev -

 

I think it is important to distinguish between commentary and source text. In the Chinese, Zhang does not make the distinction vacuity or excess for tai yang disorders and the use of ma huang tang or gui zhi tang. What you cite is commentary, which as Geoff so aptly put -and I paraphrase - is subject to debate here as well as in China. So maybe we must agree to disagree.

From my perspective however, vacuity patterns are found more deeply in the chapter on Tai Yang syndromes. The Paradigm Press version is very well organized and gives details for vacuity patterns in the Tai Yang stage beginning on page 161. What you will notice is many gui zhi tang derived formulas, but not gui zhi tang. According to Zhang, and strictly speaking, the use of gui zhi tang is differentiated from ma huang tang on the basis of zhong feng vs zhong han (wind strike vs cold strike) rather than deficiency vs excess.

 

Will Morris

 

 

Will,

To quote the Wiseman/Feng/Mitchell SHL text, pg. 44:

 

"Greater yang disease takes different forms. Heat effusion, sweating, aversion to wind, and a pulse that is floating and moderate is known as greater yang wind strike and ALSO (caps are mine for emphasis)

referred to as a greater yang exterior vacuity pattern."

 

So while I appreciate your further clarification of the issue of sweating and no sweating by correctly pointing out the difference between wind strike and cold damage, we see here that wind strike is also referred to as a tai yang exterior vacuity pattern.