Shang Han Sweating

[Guest guest]

That’s

it.

 

-----Original

Message-----

Alon Marcus

[alonmarcus]

Friday, November 08, 2002

7:59 PM

To:

 

Re:

Re: Shang Han Sweating

 

include: huang qi,

dang gui, ci wu jia, han fang ji, yin yang huo, renshen, and echinacea.

>>>Include these herbs? are there any others?

Alon

 

The Chinese Herb

Academy, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners,

matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal

Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved

online continuing education.

 

 

 

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

include: huang qi,dang gui, ci wu jia, han fang ji, yin yang huo, renshen, and echinacea.

>>>Include these herbs? are there any others?

Alon

[Guest guest]

echinacea

>>>Is it in a TCM pharmacopoeia?

alon

[Guest guest]

, Julie Chambers <info@j...> wrote:

 

> If you remove the ginseng, then why are you calling it Ren Shen

Bai Du San instead of some other wind/cold/damp formula? Are you

saying that tonification is an important part of your strategy in

general? or are you saying that wind/cold/damp is the predominant

pattern since you are practicing in the Rockies?

>

> Julie

 

 

Julie:

 

Sorry for the confusion. Actually, Ren Shen Bai Du San is a similar

formula that comes closest to the original Chinese, Tian Bao Kai Cai

Tang---which may not be as well known. I modify it every few years

to match the type of 5-Phase/6-Qi calendar pattern that dominates.

Basically, it contains:

 

Pinellia Ban xia

Atractylodes Cang zhu

Citrus Chen pi

Poria Fu ling

Agastachis Huo xiang

Peucedanum Qian hu

Cynanchum Bai qian

Bupleurum Chai hu

Paeonia (red) Chi shao

Ligusticum Chuan xiong

Angelica pub. Du huo

Licorice Gan cao

Pueraria Ge gen

Cinnamon Gui zhi

Magnolia Hou po

Platycodon Jie geng

Ephedra Ma huang

Notopterygium Qiang huo

Ginger Sheng jiang

Cimifugia Sheng ma

Aurantium Zhi shi

 

I add Liu Wei Di Huang for tonification. Wu Wei Xiao Du Yin for

severe and chronic cases. Qing Qi Hua Tan Tang for coughing and

milder cases of heat/phlegm. I've followed my Korean teacher's

example and mixed formulas together rather than fussing with

individual herbs. Each year's flu has a specific pattern based on

the 60-year calender. So, we look at those patterns in the pulse

which characterize the type of flu going around, rather than the

constellation of a patient's symptoms. The results are always good.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

James wrote:

 

Each year's flu has a specific pattern based on the 60-year calender

 

Julie queries:

 

Can you explain this further? For example, what flu is happening this year,

if you can describe it, and can other practitioners confirm this clinically?

Does it matter what part of the world one is practicing in?

[Guest guest]

James Ramholz wrote:

 

> I've followed my Korean teacher's

> example and mixed formulas together rather than fussing with

> individual herbs.

 

What happens when you mix a few largish formula together such as Tian

Wang Bu Xin Dan with Bao He Wan?

 

I'm always a little concerned about the patient getting a therapeutic

dosage. I'm using powdered extracts and I limit the dosage to 5 caps,

three times daily. So, when the number of ingredients goes up, the

quantity goes down. I like the idea of simply throwing together these

two formulas for the patient that demonstrates their indications, but I

question the dosages.

 

Did you Korean teacher have a problem with this at all?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Al,

 

How many grams per cap?

 

 

~Fernando

 

> I'm always a little concerned about the patient getting a therapeutic

> dosage. I'm using powdered extracts and I limit the dosage to 5 caps,

> three times daily. So, when the number of ingredients goes up, the

> quantity goes down.

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

>>> What happens when you mix a few largish formula together such as

Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan with Bao He Wan? >>>

 

Combine formulas or use them together as you would individual herbs.

A well designed formula has a particular character and moves the

energy in a specific way; so only combine compatible formulas. Off

the top of my head, combining Bo He Wan and Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan

sounds like they may work together if the digestive problem is due

to the patient's internalizing their nervous tension in the

digestive tract. In a case like this, you would see a wiry pulse at

the 2nd of Nan Jing 5-depth model going from SJ into the stomach

(and into the large intestine if it also affects the lower GI

tract).

 

But you shouldn't consider only the function as you would in TCM,

you need to consider the 5-Phase character of each formula---that

is, consider where the energy is going to go when these formulas are

used together. For example, you can combine a surface resolving

cold/flu formula for wind/heat with Liu Wei Di Huang. Liu Wei helps

take the formula deeper, supplies yin, and strengthens water element

to better control heat. So it provides vital energy to a deeper

level that will, in turn, help push out the perverse energy at or

near the surface.

 

 

>> I'm always a little concerned about the patient getting a

therapeutic dosage. I'm using powdered extracts and I limit the

dosage to 5 caps, three times daily. So, when the number of

ingredients goes up, the quantity goes down. I like the idea of

simply throwing together these two formulas for the patient that

demonstrates their indications, but I question the dosages.>>>

 

Therapeutic dose is the same number of grams as you normally would.

You're looking at the problem too nearsightedly. If you think there

isn't enough dose of a particular herb you're thinking like a

Westerner. Think, instead, about the seven emotions of herbs---their

combination is synergistic. So, this isn't a real problem. Most of

my formulas have 30-something herbs in them and work famously.

 

>> Did your Korean teacher have a problem with this at all? >>>

Neither he nor I have had a problem working this way. It's simply a

different style of working with herbs. TCM isn't engraved on gold

tablets. The classics are a record of past successes and a

suggestion, not dogma.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Hi, All.

 

James Ramholz wrote:

 

> Therapeutic dose is the same number of grams as you normally would.

> You're looking at the problem too nearsightedly. If you think there

> isn't enough dose of a particular herb you're thinking like a

> Westerner. Think, instead, about the seven emotions of herbs---

their

> combination is synergistic. So, this isn't a real problem. Most of

> my formulas have 30-something herbs in them and work famously.

 

 

One of my teachers, Prof Xioa from Chengdu always said not to put

more then 10 herbs in a capsulated formula.

The key word here is cooking. Patent Pills are much better in that

aspect since they have been cooked before they have been made into

pills. The cooking process is what makes the 'new product' \ the

synergistics between herbs much stronger.

When ordering a capsulated prescription we lose some(or a lot) of

this synergistic since we dont get the cooking effect.

 

Danny Levin L.Ac

[Guest guest]

No. I've checked before.

 

 

On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 06:59 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> echinacea

> >>>Is it in a TCM pharmacopoeia?

> alon

[Guest guest]

, " Danny Levin " <lvds@n...> wrote:

> One of my teachers, Prof Xioa from Chengdu always said not to put

> more then 10 herbs in a capsulated formula.

> The key word here is cooking. Patent Pills are much better in that

> aspect since they have been cooked before they have been made into

> pills. The cooking process is what makes the 'new product' \ the

> synergistics between herbs much stronger.

> When ordering a capsulated prescription we lose some(or a lot) of

> this synergistic since we dont get the cooking effect.

 

 

Prof Xioa's " 10 rule " is a totally arbitrary number---but is a good

working limit for students. Shorter formulas are a statistical rule;

not a mandate. When you read Chinese herbal books, you can always

find long and interesting formulas. For example, one famous Shaolin

formula, Abundent Justice Wine, has 55 herbs. My teacher's teacher's

Longevity Pill has 36 herbs. Back in the 1980's, it took a long

while to boil down a formula in a bushel basket. Concentrates make

that unnecessary today.

 

My Headache formula has 33 herbs; my Tung Xue 31; my Blood and

Marrow Support 23. Each is made by Spring Wind from mixed individual

concentrates in moderate size batches (23,000 capsules) and are no

less effective for not being boiled (I only make enough for personal

use and a few sales).

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

echinacea>>>Is it in a TCM pharmacopoeia?

 

>>>>Out of curiosity what made them add it in China? Do they import it from the west?

Alon

 

[Guest guest]

Prof Xioa's "10 rule" is a totally arbitrary number

>>>There are many such methods. One of the most effective TCM dr i have ever seen only uses 9 herbs in almost all his formulas (cooking formulas) with a strict rule of never treating more than 3 pathoconditions at one time, and often with 3 herbs for each

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

 

>Prof Xioa's " 10 rule " is a totally arbitrary number---but is a good

>working limit for students.

 

I definitely cannot argue with the success of your formulas.

I can just add that xiao used this " 10 rule " for his own capsulated

formula's as well.

 

Dan

[Guest guest]

, " Danny Levin " <lvds@n...> wrote:

> I definitely cannot argue with the success of your formulas.

> I can just add that xiao used this " 10 rule " for his own

capsulated formula's as well.

 

 

Dan:

 

Please don't misunderstand. My point was not that Xiao's idea was

wrong. Right or wrong in this case would be meaningless. Limiting a

formula to no more than 10 herbs is simply a conceit. You can either

accept this conceit or not---often I do. It is an arbitrary rule;

one that is very useful in some contexts---for example, students who

cannot yet manage large amounts of information. My conceit---an

intentional one---in designing general formulas was to see how many

herbs I could put in it. Some were interesting failures; others were

unexpected successes.

 

The only real litmus test for an herbal formula is whether it is

effective or not. I am always surprised when these sort of imposed

general rules become doctrine; even when there are a number of

longer formulas in Chinese literature---albeit, statistically fewer.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> Prof Xioa's " 10 rule " is a totally arbitrary number

> >>>There are many such methods. One of the most effective TCM dr i

have ever seen only uses 9 herbs in almost all his formulas (cooking

formulas) with a strict rule of never treating more than 3

pathoconditions at one time, and often with 3 herbs for each

 

 

 

Sounds interesting. I am always interested in well-crafted and

effective formulas. Can you supply some examples?

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Can you supply some examples?

>>>>Bai Zhu, Ku Shen, Sang Di

Fu Ling, Yu Jin, Huang Qi,

Gan Cao, Ren Dong Teng, Sha Shen

 

Although you can say this formula has more than 3 three treatment principles he claims that it does not. Note also how its written. This is how he writes all his formulas in three lines of threes.

Alon

[Guest guest]

In , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Can you supply some examples?

>

> >>>>Bai Zhu, Ku Shen, Sang Di

> Fu Ling, Yu Jin, Huang Qi,

> Gan Cao, Ren Dong Teng, Sha Shen

>

> Although you can say this formula has more than 3 three treatment

principles he claims that it does not. Note also how its written.

This is how he writes all his formulas in three lines of threes.

 

 

Alon:

 

Can you tell us what the formula is for and how he thinks it works.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

These caps are called size " 0 " . I infer from other websites that the

size " 0 " is 500 mg. So, I guess five caps is 2.5 grams and that is taken

three times daily.

 

Fernando Bernall wrote:

>

> Al,

>

> How many grams per cap?

>

> ~Fernando

>

> > I'm always a little concerned about the patient getting a therapeutic

> > dosage. I'm using powdered extracts and I limit the dosage to 5 caps,

> > three times daily. So, when the number of ingredients goes up, the

> > quantity goes down.

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

James Ramholz wrote:

 

> Think, instead, about the seven emotions of herbs---their

> combination is synergistic. So, this isn't a real problem. Most of

> my formulas have 30-something herbs in them and work famously.

 

Cool, thanks. : )

 

> TCM isn't engraved on gold

> tablets. The classics are a record of past successes and a

> suggestion, not dogma.

 

The more time I spend studying others' protocols and formulas the more I

realize that what we do really is an art. Perhaps some art doesn't work

famously for everybody, but for that one person out there, it'll change

their life.

 

I was recently comparing how two different practitioners approached the

same patient at the ECTOM clinic. It was two very different formulas

that both addressed the same chief complaint. The ben and biao differed

somewhat, but I could clearly see how we had two doors that entered the

same room.

 

The TCM that you present is very interesting and I hope to spend some

time looking at the Su Wen to get a feel for what's up with this stems

and branches approach to seasonal pathogens. I am very sensitive to the

personality of a particular pathogen, i.e. the unique life cycle of a

season's common cold or flu, and hope to discover what you have in

regards to predicting these things.

 

And just think of how this could effect the herb futures market! : )

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

> Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> Prof Xioa's " 10 rule " is a totally arbitrary number

> >>>There are many such methods. One of the most effective TCM dr i

> have ever seen only uses 9 herbs in almost all his formulas (cooking

> formulas) with a strict rule of never treating more than 3

> pathoconditions at one time, and often with 3 herbs for each

 

What does a pathocondition mean? Is that a symptom or a syndrome?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Al Stone wrote:

>

> James Ramholz wrote:

>

> > Think, instead, about the seven emotions of herbs

 

It that the same as the tastes?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

What does a pathocondition mean?

 

>>>It is both a pattern or only scant evidence for one. For example one can have many degrees of evidence to support Dampness, to be truly a pattern, I was taught that a higher degree of evidence is needed. If you have it than the major formula can be one for dampness.

This is why I have been asking in the past what people mean my complex patterns.

When combining herbs in a formulation one can add herbs for a pathocinditon, for example blood-stasis only on the basis of seeing affected veins. This however, is not a pattern of Blood-stasis and choosing the main formula from blood-stasis category would be "incorrect."

Alon

[Guest guest]

Can you tell us what the formula is for and how he thinks it works.>>>>This is for a patient with a central pattern of Spleen deficiency resulting in liver disregulation and Damp-Heat. While shang di and Sha shen can help control heat, the are included because the pulse shows a possible the begining, not yet manifested i.e.. preventative, Yin-damage from the Heat

Alon

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> It that the same as the tastes?

 

 

 

Al:

 

I don't have Wiseman in front of me, but Him-che Yeung lists the

emotions (with examples) of herbs in his Handbook of Chinese Herbs as

 

Mutual reinforcement

Assistance

Mutual restraint

Neutralization

Counteraction

Incompatibility

 

 

Jim Ramholz