Si Ni San

[Guest guest]

Craig,

 

> Clearly, there is legitimacy to the idea that given how closely Si Ni San > is

> related to Xiao Chai Hu Tang that it might reasonably by discussed in the

> Shao Yang section. Si Ni San is clearly used in similar ways to XCHT

> clinically. However, the fact that ZZJ placed SNS in the shao yin section

> cannot be ignored. He also clearly refers to syndromes that he describes

> as shao yin disorders for which the treatment is SNS. This cannot be > ignored.

> I think it only being academic ignores the reality of the text, but > ignoring SNS's

> relationship to XCHT ignores the reality of clinical practice and formula

> construction. I can't settle it, nor can anyone, in my opinion.

It is a little peculiar maintaining discourse second hand. I think I have Craig's email at work so I will post to him directly.While it is close to Xiao Chai Hu Tang, Zhang Zhongjing does not mention it as a Shao Yang stage formula. And, having observed patients who have been prescribed si ni san incorrectly, it doesn't work very well for Shao Yang stage disorders. The pattern is entirely different. Si Ni San is a Golden Cabinet formula for liver-spleen disharmony, below you will see Dr Yang go on a rant about use of si ni san for liver spleen. Practitioners who I have tremendous respect for will argue that si ni san is academic, however, I concur with Craig on the notion that it isn't. My experience with Dr Yang Maiqing especially causes me to think differently. Here are a couple of his cases:Many think Si Ni San is for Liver Stomach disharmony, in the text it is written it is for chronic hepatitis, chronic pancreatitis, chronic cholecystitis, chronic gastritis, peptic ulcer, chronic ulcerative colitis,dysentary, appendicitis, ascariades in the comon bile duct, chollithiasis, esophagel spasm, stomach neuresthenea, intercostal neuralgia, and cervical lymph node involvement. This implies the scholars don’t really know what Si Ni San is used for. They also thought dysmenorrhea, salpingitis, or any disease related to liver and stomach. Si Ni San really treats prestage of heart failure. Lab tests prove Si Ni San controls prestages of heart failure. This can cause a favorable turn in Shao Yin disease. Chai Hu subdues and disperses liver. Zhi Shi descends the rebellious Qi of Liver, this also strengthens the heart. Ancient literature is says Bai Shao purges Liver Yin, Bai Shao dredges blood vessels and opens blood vessels, astringe yin is the same as open the collaterals. Gan Cao harmonizes the middle jiao. Si ni san prevents heart failure, Shao Yin disease is a syndrome of heart failure….of course it treats the Liver Stomach chronic diseases. Why did Zhang Jong Jing place the formula here? Because it can help prevent heart failure. Examples: A child three years old has cold extremities for one day.Very weak, child has cough and SOB, fever, on back of neck there are some rashes, some doctors promoted sweating, in pediatrics, rash shows entrance of toxins to the interior, this childs development and nutrition is moderate. There was no response, pale complexion, purple lips, deep red tongue, eyes didn’t respond to the light, same on both sides, lungs had rales, heart beat is strong, pulse was rapid, liver and spleen enlarged.Diagnosis: pneumonia complicated w/ measles Treatment: antibiotics, intravenous injection, no result. After si ni san, the patient turned the corner, discharged after three days. Si Ni San can stop the disease if it may have a tendency to go to heart disease. 10 month old in winter high fever cough SOB low spirits, dysurea, no sweating, extremities not cold, lungs have rales, heart beat is low, rate is 150 bpm, dx is sudden onset pneumonia, used Si Ni San. Fever didn’t come down, pulse over 100 bpm gave Fu Zi 10g and glucose, then cough and asthma improved and heart beat returned right away. Not only abdominal pain if Si Ni San doesn’t work add Fu Zi. The rapid pulse and and fever show heart involvement, it will turn to cold. These are all real cold and false heat fevers. HT Beat highest 120 over 150 or 160 signals heart failure. If there is no Yang Ming syndrome, elevated pulse rates are due to heart failure. Low spirits are due to Yin pattern no Yang pattern.

 

Will Morris

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

> Many think Si Ni San is for Liver Stomach disharmony, in the text it is

> written it is for chronic hepatitis, chronic pancreatitis, chronic

> cholecystitis, chronic gastritis, peptic ulcer, chronic ulcerative

> colitis,dysentary, appendicitis, ascariades in the comon bile duct,

> chollithiasis, esophagel spasm, stomach neuresthenea, intercostal

neuralgia,

> and cervical lymph node involvement. This implies the scholars don’t

really

> know what Si Ni San is used for.

 

And yet many others will claim this formula is effective for all these cond=

itions

due to affecting liver spleen/stomach disharmony. I find this statement od=

d

because the fact that si ni san can be used for many diseases hardly implie=

s

" the scholars don't really know what Si Ni San is used for " . It implies th=

at all

these conditions can be treated if one discriminates the correct pattern. =

 

Finally, setting aside SHL theory, the combination of herbs in si ni san is=

 

clearly applicable to LV/SP disorders even if that was not ZZJ's intention,=

 

which of course we will never know (same for xiao chai hu tang). I learned=

 

yesterday that it was a common tactic to write things with cryptic or mixed=

 

meanings in classical times. It wa a sign of intelligence, but that leaves=

us

forever in limbo on these issues. We ride on the backs of precedent in TCM=

,

but in this case, the precedents are diverse and contradictory, so all we c=

an

do is apply them in clinic and see what happens.