Guest guest Posted November 15, 2002 Report Share Posted November 15, 2002 dear List and Ken... Maybe the link: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/antibiotic_resistance.php is both of use and or interesting... In a earlier message Ken: It made me think. How do we come todifferentiate the valuable from thevalueless? I'm thinking not only with respect to what seems like an offbeat use of human urine as medicine but alsowith respect to "normal" acceptedpractices. Marco: Is it that of beat? Is seams more like a social historical "attitude". I am not sure but think that quite a number of cultures have used / recognised urine as medicine and or beneficial in some form. However it begs the question that you post, but before that one needs to investigate the surrounding circumstances say with regard to the case that I think Al relayed. was it open i.e. always exposed cleaned regularly with or with out urine? Any other agents i.e. plant medicines and both internally and or externally? i.e. what was the preceding-surrounding-following circumstances? We know for example that one way of reducing the antibiotic problematic with resistant bacteria is to complete the "cure", in a way exists a "ceremonial regime" attached and / or associated with antibiotics. In Guatemala many plants prescriptions by the more Maya based practices involves taking a agent for certain time periods and even to start (co-inside with certain time periods). Also urino-terapia is something which many claim that Maya medicine had developed to a very "high" level. It is currently difficult to confirm this, however my dear partner tells me that her parents and even more so her abulas grand parents used to either be prescribed urine and / or self medicate, but it involved cleansing the body by not eating certain prohibited foods and steam baths, including consumptions of herbs for cetin time period before one could use urine as a therapeutically agent. However that was Vermontly destroyed by the "love" of western religion, as always with the indigenous native American culture some aspects where retained either due to enforce secrecy and or no contact with missionaries; still what can be recuperated may never be the same "advance" logistical approach, since the cosmovision is less "relevant/practice" today. So what the point you may say? Well the twist here is that some health canters run by the Catholic church are promoting urine therapy but the modern impulse comes from Japan, since most people keep saying because in Japan... Hence the church and its relation to Indigenous culture is still a patronising one. Ken your question: How do we come todifferentiate the valuable from thevalueless? I wonder how widelythe rationale for traditionalChinese medical interventions is understood. Are excellent and, have no answer. My personal understanding for the rational of Chinese medicine is rudimentary considering the information that exists. It is once this rationale of/for Chinese medicine is made visible, visibilised more and hence understood further (more profoundly) that Complexity and Chinese medicine can have a "practical" approach (to comment on something written at the group Chinese medicine and Complexity) in one of my opinions. As for differencing the value from the valueless is to be highly honest and observant of the changes but with out sufficient knowledge of the constant interaction between: Heaven Humankind Earth It is difficult to "predict" the outcome "normal from the abnormal", what lacked in my course of Chinese medicine yes apart from the Chinese medical language many other aspects lacked, was the art and science of prognoses. But if any one could elaborate on the two questions by Ken and maybe you Ken would not mind to opiniate? They are fundamental to the development of Chinese medicine and even to the identity(s) of Chinese medicine. Supposedly clinical audits may be one approach another is to analyse in a compare and contrast fashion various approaches to research in Chinese medicine and maybe the invisible can be temporarily made a bit more visible; treatment outcomes may also be relevant to begin to answer your question. However although I have read that Unshuld explianes that never developed a system of identifying "total truths" surely a Traditional if not a co herent policy of identifying what "works and not" but at least certain norms where either more or less used? And finally, in a way the link above deals with certain aspects of understanding and or not understanding the rationale of Chinese medical intervention. Ken by the way did you locate your Swedish friend? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2002 Report Share Posted November 15, 2002 Marco, > Is it that of beat? > Is seams more like a social historical " attitude " . > I am not sure but think that quite a number of cultures have used / recognised urine as medicine and or beneficial in some form. I think you are quite right. > > However it begs the question that you post, but before that one needs to investigate the surrounding circumstances say with regard to the case that I think Al relayed. > > was it open i.e. always exposed cleaned regularly with or with out urine? > > Any other agents i.e. plant medicines and both internally and or externally? > i.e. what was the preceding-surrounding-following circumstances? Certainly. > > > We know for example that one way of reducing the antibiotic problematic with resistant bacteria is to complete the " cure " , in a way exists a " ceremonial regime " attached and / or associated with antibiotics. Yes. It's a manifestation of a basic cultural bias of modern civilization: if it gets in your way, kill it. The killing that follows in the wake of such thinking is often ritualized. People performing such rituals often look on their own actions first and foremost as simply complying with the norms of their cultural environment. > > In Guatemala many plants prescriptions by the more Maya based practices involves taking a agent for certain time periods and even to start (co-inside with certain time periods). > > Also urino-terapia is something which many claim that Maya medicine had developed to a very " high " level. I know nothing of it but would be interested to find out. > > It is currently difficult to confirm this, however my dear partner tells me that her parents and even more so her abulas grand parents used to either be prescribed urine and / or self medicate, but it involved cleansing the body by not eating certain prohibited foods and steam baths, including consumptions of herbs for cetin time period before one could use urine as a therapeutically agent. What's " abulas? " > > However that was Vermontly destroyed by the " love " of western religion, as always with the indigenous native American culture some aspects where retained either due to enforce secrecy and or no contact with missionaries; still what can be recuperated may never be the same " advance " logistical approach, since the cosmovision is less " relevant/practice " today. > > So what the point you may say? > > Well the twist here is that some health canters run by the Catholic church are promoting urine therapy but the modern impulse comes from Japan, since most people keep saying because in Japan... Hence the church and its relation to Indigenous culture is still a patronising one. I think that the cross-cultural dynamics must be kept clearly in view in this particular discussion and in the wider forum when it comes to interpreting Chinese medical ideas generally. > > Ken your question: > > How do we come to > differentiate the valuable from the > valueless? > > I wonder how widely > the rationale for traditional > Chinese medical interventions is > understood. > > > > Are excellent and, have no answer. My personal understanding for the rational of Chinese medicine is rudimentary considering the information that exists. It is once this rationale of/for Chinese medicine is made visible, visibilised more and hence understood further (more profoundly) that Complexity and Chinese medicine can have a " practical " approach (to comment on something written at the group Chinese medicine and Complexity) in one of my opinions. I agree. I think that's a very early step that needs to be accomplished. Light has to be cast on the nature and structure of the theoretical underpinnings so that they are both visible and comprehensible. This is just what we're calling for in Who Can Ride the Dragon? > > As for differencing the value from the valueless is to be highly honest and observant of the changes but with out sufficient knowledge of the constant interaction between: > > Heaven > Humankind > Earth > > It is difficult to " predict " the outcome " normal from the abnormal " , what lacked in my course of Chinese medicine yes apart from the Chinese medical language many other aspects lacked, was the art and science of prognoses. What are you doing to supplement for these aspects? > > But if any one could elaborate on the two questions by Ken and maybe you Ken would not mind to opiniate? > > They are fundamental to the development of Chinese medicine and even to the identity(s) of Chinese medicine. I agree with those who insist that clinical results are the true arbiter of the value of medical ideas and methods. That's precisely why I place such emphasis on the widespread study of Chinese medical language, terms, and texts. Only a clear, accurate, and workable perception of such materials can Westerners come into possession of satisfactory evidence of the value or valuelessness of Chinese medical practice. > > Supposedly clinical audits may be one approach another is to analyse in a compare and contrast fashion various approaches to research in Chinese medicine and maybe the invisible can be temporarily made a bit more visible; treatment outcomes may also be relevant to begin to answer your question. When you get down to the details of what's involved in doing these, the language issues constitute a considerable barrier. If researchers don't understand the terms and concepts, studies can hardly be well designed. > > However although I have read that Unshuld explianes that Chinese Medicine never developed a system of identifying " total truths " surely a Traditional if not a co herent policy of identifying what " works and not " but at least certain norms where either more or less used? Complex question. Certainly Chinese medical theory was never conceived of as a way to identify or explain " total truths " . Rather, theories are conceptual tools. The only " proof " considered of any value is whether or not a particular tool works at a particular time in a particular case. This is one of the fundamental precepts of Chinese medicine: different patient; different time; different place: different treatment. We could also add " different theory " to that list. If theory X doesn't illuminate matters, it's obviously the wrong theory to be using. So use a different one. This follows from the nature of qi4. > > And finally, in a way the link above deals with certain aspects of understanding and or not understanding the rationale of Chinese medical intervention. I haven't checked it out yet. I will and will let you know what I think. > > > > Ken by the way did you locate your Swedish friend? No. Ken > > > > Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2002 Report Share Posted November 16, 2002 Dear Ken, Marco: > Also urine-terapia is something which many claim that Maya medicine had developed to a very "high" level. Ken: I know nothing of it but would beinterested to find out. Marco: I too and if I do will post it... Ken:What's "abulas?" Marco: Sorry its spelt abuelas plural for grandmothers and I am using it as a plural for grandparents, strictly speaking that would be abulos which is masculine but I find the spanish language and the Guatemalan too sexist for its own good, hence abuelas. However the native American Maya population tend to employ the term as a metaphor for someone who is: Wise Knowledgeable influential usually but not exclusively related to age. Ken: I think that the cross-cultural dynamicsmust be kept clearly in view in thisparticular discussion and in the widerforum when it comes to interpretingChinese medical ideas generally. Marco: This is actually a topic that has some very practical implication in Guatemala it ripples into the political arena too. All too often people with good intention say that Maya medicine is like and or similar to Chinese medicine. A book buy some Mexicans was done it is interesting but fraught with pre-conceived ideas and no clear approach is made between what the authors claim to be representative of Maya medicine and what they claim to be Chinese medicine; what's more they actually promote their personal western interpretation as the finial arbitrator. Once a very good western doctor who spent many years actively with the Maya resistance told me that he liked the book because he could understand the term bio-energy better then say Qi, and although he and others have been interacting with a non western but of course westernised cultured they see no real clinical value in Maya medicine and or other Traditional medicines but promote the "idea" that Maya medicine should be recognised in Guatemala. This however is a political resonance behind it and hence any real actuan will and or at least until now been unfruitful. Partially because they (its an health organisation that I am working with albeit just on a discussional level) do not take time to step out of political thinking and recognised the dilemma with medicine as a generic term in the first place. Thus claiming similarities between the two system is empty talk and will possibly create obstacles for both Maya medicine and Chinese medicine in Guatemala as phenomena "entities" that could possibly improve the health situation in Guatemala. I as I get to know and understand more Chinese medicine and possibly more familiarity with some Maya medicine would like to compare and contrast and just like with Western medicine create a network of physicians-practitioners that could interrelate their workings of the persons being treated. I share the view that cultural dynamics are para mount. I for the time being "believe" that Chinese medicine will albeit slowly be more recognised as a viable treatment modality. Where I hope it will be included and promoted on various levels. Rural-Urban Health promotion - preventative - curative - rehabitation in a cyclical form. Meanwhile this will promote Maya medicine to a certain extent in the sense that it makes more sense to take it seriously before throwing out "the baby with the bathwater" and so. However it is currently a lonely endower because politically Chinese medicine does not have the same connotation, this in turn is probably a advantage because it leaves room from creating the social-political ambiance to promote Chinese medicine. I am currently participating in a small program the ministry of health "alternative and Complementary" medicine. Where Chinese medicine is classified for the time being. Will write more about it as soon as possible and no doubt hope to get some constructive in-put from this list which I find a partial remedy to a feeling of isolation and frankly loniness with regard to the potential useful ness of Chinese medicine in Guatemala. Your Questions: How do we come to> differentiate the valuable from the> valueless?> > I wonder how widely> the rationale for traditional> Chinese medical interventions is > understood. I see as paramount and hope that others would care to elaborate and comment, I am well aware that in a way the conversations since day one on this list have tackled inderectly and or directly but what then is the current opinion(s)? Sometime ago wrote a message about being able to peg-associate the termilogy to the actions of the clinicians and to the resulting outcome, as a potential "model/ vehicle" of investigation and research approach. Since there was no response figure that it is best to leave such things to people like your self and Rey and Birch among others. By the way Rey any possibilities of some comments? Marco: It is once this rationale of/for Chinese medicine is made visible, visibilised more and hence understood further (more profoundly) that Complexity and Chinese medicine can have a "practical" approach (to comment on something written at the group Chinese medicine and Complexity) in one of my opinions. Ken: I agree. I think that's a very earlystep that needs to be accomplished.Light has to be cast on the natureand structure of the theoreticalunderpinnings so that they are bothvisible and comprehensible. Marco: The concept of peg-associate the termilogy both to action and outcome had the "visibilisation" aspect in mind. Who Can Ride the Dragon has been kindly donated by a person in UK and I am currently trying to not generate to much elation in the interim of waiting. From what I can understand and or gather from your writings thus far a book like that and "Qi" would be indispensable to any genuine course of Chinese medicine, at least out side of Asia. Marco: It is difficult to "predict" the outcome "normal from the abnormal", what lacked in my course of Chinese medicine yes apart from the Chinese medical language many other aspects lacked, was the art and science of prognoses. Ken: What are you doing to supplement forthese aspects? Marco: I am trying to learn medical Chinese, two volume books by Unschuld and then need to tackle pronunciation as well. From reading message on the list I am also developing my case history note taking. James Ramholz and Z'ev have made some very interesting and useful comments on the five phases. Basically a lot of people on the list, Bob Felt, Tay Fax I think the name is mist spelt (sorry) Rey and many more are good "role" figures. Once the ministry of health pays I will get books specially the once by Wiseman and language, I have tried in vain to find writing from Andy Ellies (I think he has produce a book on learning medical Chinese) apart from that he seam to be very astute (apart from fundamentals only have a hear say info). I am looking in to Japanese acumoxa and have manage to get two books co written by Birch and others. Keep studying Bensky's material and which that he could be more active in producing written material. Hope to read Volkers book fairly soon. Hope that the program run by MoH will give space to create a very solid platform of in Guatemala. Dream of going to China to study more and more profoundly. Have some students and feel it is a two way flow. Waiting for a book by Sabine Williams which is still in the process of being made, who I think currently is not on this list yet. Basically trying to improve my case history and diagnoses and "making" a prognoses and relating the actual outcome to these factors. Also trying to understand-comprehend what Heaven - mankind - earth actually meant in Chinese medicine and culture as well as Oriental medicine and Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese and so forth influence of these topics would be paramount. Any ideas are most welcome. Guatemala has a lot of need for cooperation and promotional work with regard to Chinese medicine and I have thus far failed to create any solid links with others say on this list, but hopefully as objectives and logistic become more clear maybe that will change. Ken: I agree with those who insist thatclinical results are the true arbiterof the value of medical ideas andmethods. That's precisely why Iplace such emphasis on the widespreadstudy of Chinese medical language,terms, and texts. Only a clear,accurate, and workable perceptionof such materials can Westernerscome into possession of satisfactoryevidence of the value or valuelessnessof Chinese medical practice. Marco: Thanks... Ken: When you get down to the details ofwhat's involved in doing these, thelanguage issues constitute a considerablebarrier. If researchers don't understandthe terms and concepts, studies can hardlybe well designed. Marco: This statement to me has such great amplitude of ramifications sense it really homes in to the foundation of transmission and therefore learning and hence practice of Chinese medicine. hence, brings many other aspects into the conversation: What are good studies? What are acceptable studies? What is good practice ethical-efficacy-efficiently? Will hope fully have some more comments on the paragraph of yours. Finally since you recognise a lot of utile and practical implications for the metaphorical aspect of medical Chinese, maybe there would be a case for exploring elaborating of what you mean by metaphor or metaphorical, because in a recent posting Zev writes: I don't think that terms such as wind invasion are merely 'metaphoric'. They are described naked sense perceptions of phenomena that effect the body, that are 'real'. Metaphors do not describe real phenomena, but are symbolic or representational. Are there any other opinions of "definitions" of metaphors i.e. its meaning(s). Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2002 Report Share Posted November 16, 2002 Marco, Thanks for the explanation of abuelas. > > All too often people with good intention say that Maya medicine is like and or similar to Chinese medicine. Of all the basic terms in the subject of Chinese medicine that are misunderstood or simply not understood, perhaps the misunderstanding with the most widespread impact is the misunderstanding of what Chinese medicine is. This is one of the questions that I think can be productively addressed using the tools of complex systems science. One of the objectives of the Complexity and Research Center in Beijing is to foster an investigation into the nature of traditional Chinese medicine considered as a giant, open and very complex system. >A book buy some Mexicans was done it is interesting but fraught with pre-conceived ideas and no clear approach is made between what the authors claim to be representative of Maya medicine and what they claim to be Chinese medicine; what's more they actually promote their personal western interpretation as the finial arbitrator. > Once a very good western doctor who spent many years actively with the Maya resistance told me that he liked the book because he could understand the term bio-energy better then say Qi, and although he and others have been interacting with a non western but of course westernised cultured they see no real clinical value in Maya medicine and or other Traditional medicines but promote the " idea " that Maya medicine should be recognised in Guatemala. This however is a political resonance behind it and hence any real actuan will and or at least until now been unfruitful. Partially because they (its an health organisation that I am working with albeit just on a discussional level) do not take time to step out of political thinking and recognised the dilemma with medicine as a generic term in the first place. It's complicated stuff. And I'm glad that you mention these dynamics as there are, of course, comparable and in many ways similar dynamics affecting the processes of transmission and reception of Chinese medicine in many other parts of the world. We should all pay attention to what happens in such circumstances. > > Thus claiming similarities between the two system is empty talk and will possibly create obstacles for both Maya medicine and Chinese medicine in Guatemala as phenomena " entities " that could possibly improve the health situation in Guatemala. > > I as I get to know and understand more Chinese medicine and possibly more familiarity with some Maya medicine would like to compare and contrast and just like with Western medicine create a network of physicians-practitioners that could interrelate their workings of the persons being treated. Seems like a potentially useful activity, and one that would require the establishment of some sort of common language in order to even commence. I read recently that " Linguists have discovered that no two speakers speak exactly the same language. " Those who ignore the language issues that relate to the study and understanding of Chinese medicine impose a distinct, political agenda and set of values on the subject. > > I share the view that cultural dynamics are para mount. Yes. The wider dynamics are always in play and should not be ignored by people involved in diagnosing even a single patient. [...] > I am currently participating in a small program the ministry of health " alternative and Complementary " medicine. Where Chinese medicine is classified for the time being. > Will write more about it as soon as possible and no doubt hope to get some constructive in-put from this list which I find a partial remedy to a feeling of isolation and frankly loniness with regard to the potential useful ness of Chinese medicine in Guatemala. Do keep us all posted. What sort of help might you need? > > Your Questions: > > How do we come to > > differentiate the valuable from the > > valueless? > > > > I wonder how widely > > the rationale for traditional > > Chinese medical interventions is > > understood. > > I see as paramount and hope that others would care to elaborate and comment, I am well aware that in a way the conversations since day one on this list have tackled inderectly and or directly but what then is the current opinion(s)? > > Sometime ago wrote a message about being able to peg-associate the termilogy to the actions of the clinicians and to the resulting outcome, as a potential " model/ vehicle " of investigation and research approach. > > Since there was no response figure that it is best to leave such things to people like your self and Rey and Birch among others. By the way Rey any possibilities of some comments? These things take some time to consider. Sometimes what seems like a simple thought implies a long series of actions. Hence the value of perseverance. [...] > The concept of peg-associate the termilogy both to action and outcome had the " visibilisation " aspect in mind. Yeah. It's a kind of connect the dots activity. > > Who Can Ride the Dragon has been kindly donated by a person in UK and I am currently trying to not generate to much elation in the interim of waiting. > > From what I can understand and or gather from your writings thus far a book like that and " Qi " would be indispensable to any genuine course of Chinese medicine, at least out side of Asia. Both those books were written because they are the kinds of books I always wished I'd had during my earlier days with the subject. I continue to think that the outline of issues as presented in Who Can Ride the Dragon? does a fairly decent job of summarizing the concerns of a student approaching the subject with little if any understanding or appreciation of the Chinese-ness of Chinese medicine. So this brings us back to the question of what is Chinese medicine. Why do we call it " Chinese " medicine? As for Qi, well, I'm still curious to find out, " What is qi? " > > Marco: > It is difficult to " predict " the outcome " normal from the > abnormal " , what lacked in my course of Chinese medicine yes apart > from the Chinese medical language many other aspects lacked, was the > art and science of prognoses. > > Ken: > > What are you doing to supplement for > these aspects? > > Marco: > > I am trying to learn medical Chinese, two volume books by Unschuld .... > > Any ideas are most welcome. Come to China. > > Guatemala has a lot of need for cooperation and promotional work with regard to Chinese medicine and I have thus far failed to create any solid links with others say on this list, but hopefully as objectives and logistic become more clear maybe that will change. No doubt. If you want to come to China and get more hooked up with what's happening there, let me know. I urge everyone to come and have a look. >[...]> > Ken: > > When you get down to the details of > what's involved in doing these, the > language issues constitute a considerable > barrier. If researchers don't understand > the terms and concepts, studies can hardly > be well designed. > > > Marco: > > This statement to me has such great amplitude of ramifications sense it really homes in to the foundation of transmission and therefore learning and hence practice of Chinese medicine. hence, brings many other aspects into the conversation: > > What are good studies? > > What are acceptable studies? > > What is good practice ethical-efficacy-efficiently? > > Will hope fully have some more comments on the paragraph of yours. Check out the website of CAOM: http://www.harcourt-international.com/journals/caom/ There are probably some materials available there that address these questions. Steve Birch and his colleagues met at Exeter University in July of 2001 to discuss these issues and we've been publishing the results of that meeting ever since. Steve is also now working on organizing a follow up meeting. > > Finally since you recognise a lot of utile and practical implications for the metaphorical aspect of medical Chinese, maybe there would be a case for exploring elaborating of what you mean by metaphor or metaphorical, because in a recent posting Zev writes: > > I don't think that terms such as wind invasion are merely 'metaphoric'. > They are described naked sense perceptions of phenomena that effect > the body, that are 'real'. Metaphors do not describe real phenomena, > but are symbolic or representational. > > > Are there any other opinions of " definitions " of metaphors i.e. its meaning(s). Although this seems to be a reply to something I said, I never said that anything was " merely metaphoric. " I think Todd made some comment that added the " merely metaphoric " aspect to the discussion. What I meant was that concepts like " wind " and " wind invasion " and " exterior " and " resolving the exterior " etc. all work together as a systematic method of describing pathologies and developing therapeutic interventions. In order to understand the nature and function of this system, we've got to understand the building blocks as well as the way they fit together. There's another dimension to the matter, I believe. But it gets a little complicated. It has to do with the role of metaphor in human consciousness and in the utility of exploring and explaining such dynamics in terms of traditional Chinese medicine. We can leave that for another time and place. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2002 Report Share Posted November 23, 2002 Dear Ken, Dough and list... Sorry for the delay in sending a response... Ken: Of all the basic terms in the subjectof Chinese medicine that are misunderstoodor simply not understood, perhaps themisunderstanding with the most widespread impact is the misunderstanding of whatChinese medicine is. Marco: This really is hitting the head on the nail. Ken: This is one of the questions that I thinkcan be productively addressed using thetools of complex systems science. Oneof the objectives of the Complexity and Research Center inBeijing is to foster an investigation intothe nature of traditional Chinese medicineconsidered as a giant, open and very complexsystem. Marco: Very interesting, some links below may be of interest: http://www.ravelifesciences.com/ftp/education_papers/Chinese_Medicine_in_HD.pdf The idea is intriguing but where do one draw once information in the first place? http://www.cbflabs.com/tec/friend/tcm.pdf Traditional ,Yin-Yang and Five Phase theory is discussed with concepts and methods of System Science and Complexity. Any comments welcome as I quite frankly did not understand it...(the language) >>> Will write more about it as soon as possible and no doubt hope to get some constructive in-put from this list which I find a partial remedy to a feeling of isolation and frankly loniness with regard to the potential useful ness of Chinese medicine in Guatemala.Do keep us all posted. What sort ofhelp might you need? Marco: Thanks for asking. This list for starter is a great aid in "keeping up with issues" as well as see some ambiance of a fairly representive part of people with an genuine interest in Chinese medicine. As time and the project materlisies more will be in a "better" position to answer the question. Things like what constitute good studies and legislative matters and ethics and so forth... With regard to ethics and Chinese medicine which has been referred to a bit in other recentes post found only this: Chinese Medical Ethics and the Role of Medical History Paul U. Unschuld, University of Munchen, Germany link: http://www.lb.nagasaki-u.ac.jp/kiyo/amn/v46/46sup14.pdf Advances in Chinese Medical Ethics: Chinese and International Perspectives Medical Ethics and Culture Lee Shui-chuen A Confucian Assessment of 'Personhood' Ole Döring Moral Development and Education in Medical Ethics. An Attempt at a Confucian Aspiration Daniel F.C. Tsai The Two-Dimensional Concept of Confucian Personhood in Biomedical Practice Chen Rongxia Religious Emotions and Bioethics Cao Kaibin Approaches to Health in Ancient China Zhang Daqing Medicine as Virtuous Conduct: Assessing the Tradition of Chinese Medical Ethics Shen Mingxian Euthanasia and Chinese Traditional Culture Wang Yifang Ideals and Ethics: “The Art of Humaneness” Is Not Reliable Just the titles they sound interesting thou, and maybe some of them and or similar could be a theme and or at least a further article for CAOM, still to but via the journal the much needed debate and action on ethics would reach a presumably fairly extensive and wide audients. (I imagine that the Asian countries has an extensive literature on the topic and experience...) Some sites that may be of interest: http://www.who-umc.org/umc.html Monitoring center for drugs natural and synthetic considering that Chinese drugs (any drugs natural or otherwise) and toxicity is a possibility even more so when inappropriately and or incorrectly used but not exclusively. Which beg the question how to minimise, reduce, prevent natural drug toxicity? Monitoring of Liver Enzymes in Patients On by Mazin Al-Khafaji used to be on the sample site of journal of Chinese medicine any one read it any comments, would a similar but more multicenter study be feasible? (appears to not be currently available on the sample site of JCM) Ken: It's complicated stuff. And I'm glad thatyou mention these dynamics as there are,of course, comparable and in many wayssimilar dynamics affecting the processesof transmission and reception of Chinesemedicine in many other parts of the world.We should all pay attention to what happensin such circumstances. Marco: The below links in a way deal with this on a "macro" level; some interesting information on Traditional medicine. Search: Traditional medicine once at the sites. My first impression is: How representative is the work that is being done? How can we as a Chinese medical profession also actively participate and or contribute? How can one ensure that Asian traditional doctors and those geniually trained in "the" Oriental medical paradigms with language and well rooted in "the" intrinsic logistics of Chinese medicine - Oriental medicine (and other traditional medicine on par) In a way it would be interesting to compare and contrast the views and works of CAOM as CAOM and as individuals whom work with CAOM for example with the work that is being done on a "macro" level. http://www.paho.org/ http://www.who.or.jp/ http://www.who.or.id/ http://www.afro.who.int/index.html http://www.wpro.who.int/ http://w3.whosea.org/index.htm Ken: As for Qi, well, I'm still curious tofind out, "What is qi?" Marco: Well, I be the last on the list to be able to give a decent opinion but since you asked:-) Is Qi not defined by the recent postings of metaphor and your elaboration of metaphor: something like: an elaborate and functional phenomenological "unit"; temporal and spatial dependent i.e. context dependent made (more) visible by observing inter-connectness of entities and phenomena's. Well it is worth a try, apologise for any grave misunderstanding... Ken: No doubt. If you want to come toChina and get more hooked up withwhat's happening there, let me know.I urge everyone to come and have a look. Marco: Thanks, it is always on my mind and will hopefully one day have reason to ask you about going to China. Ken: Check out the website of CAOM:http://www.harcourt-international.com/journals/caom/ I have its great and now really its just a question of time to ...Jieepie hurra tralala... However on the editorial board there are many interesting contributors to Chinese medicine in the English langue could the journal not "coheirs" those people to write articles as well for example Steven Clavey, Volker, Alan Bensoussan and Marnae Ergil... and so on... (Rey could you not wrote an article about your theses for CAOM?) The editorial board could it not be possible to incorporate professionals from Korea and Vietnam as to make those part of East Asian medicine more representive. The S.T.R.I.C.T.A. Birch et.al. is very interesting... things like that help for any one interested in promoting and or developing Chinese medicine (developing here means making valuable, good practice Chinese medicine on a non exclusive biases). Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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