Releasing the Exterior...

[Guest guest]

Dear Group,

 

I was discussing CM with a M.D. recently and one of our convos revolved

around colds/flu's. So I ask you, What are some of the ideas that explain our

treatment principles of releasing the exterior - sweating - from a western

(physiological) perspective.

To rephrase, in some situations it is clear that just taking a sauna (i.e. ma

huang tang excess presentation's) might do the trick to beat back a 'cold' -

common to many westerners - a) how can this sweating be explained in western

terms to do the trick (i.e. just a raise in body temp?)..

b) but more unclear is our other presentations (i.e. w-h, guizhitang's,

w-w-drys' etc) what western explanation can be given for our methods? what do

we think is going on from this western angle that explains how we get results...

Pushing a pathogen out is fine for CM, but is seems odd to a westerner... Ideas?

 

-

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

> I was discussing CM with a M.D. recently and one of our convos

revolved around colds/flu's. So I ask you, What are some of the

ideas that explain our treatment principles of releasing the

exterior - sweating - from a western (physiological) perspective.

> To rephrase, in some situations it is clear that just taking a

sauna (i.e. ma huang tang excess presentation's) might do the trick

to beat back a 'cold' - common to many westerners - a) how can this

sweating be explained in western terms to do the trick (i.e. just a

raise in body temp?)..

> b) but more unclear is our other presentations (i.e. w-h,

guizhitang's, w-w-drys' etc) what western explanation can be given

for our methods? what do we think is going on from this western

angle that explains how we get results... Pushing a pathogen out is

fine for CM, but is seems odd to a westerner... Ideas?

 

Good question.

 

I suggest that answers can be found or

more precisely created by focusing on

the meanings of the terms and the basic

concepts involved.

 

So you might want to check out the

new Introduction to English Terminology

of volume from

Paradigm. There's a section on methods

of treatment that starts on page 182.

 

As to how to correlate Chinese and Western

explanations: that's something I've been

working on for a while now. I believe

that the answer lies in an understanding

of the role of metaphor in Chinese

medical language and in language

and knowledge in general.

 

If the metaphoric values of Chinese

medical terms are not clearly understood,

then the interpretation of meanings from

a Western perspective will be skewed

by the absence of such an understanding.

 

One of the principal metaphors involved

in the questions you've raised is the

whole set of images and values related

to the interior/exterior relationships

that are seen to exist in traditional

Chinese medical terms.

 

So we could proceed along a path that

was suggested to me by John Holland, namely

to make up three lists. The first is

a list of Chinese medical terms and

concepts. The second is a list of

Western medical terms and concepts.

The third is a list of the implied

dynamics of the human body to which

the terms/concepts on the first two

lists make reference.

 

Then by working through the lists

we could begin to establish correlations.

 

What did the MD to whom you were talking

have to say?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " " <@h...> wrote:

 

What are some of the ideas that explain our treatment principles of releasing

the exterior - sweating - from a western (physiological) perspective.

Pushing a pathogen out is fine for CM, but is seems odd to a westerner...

Ideas?

 

 

I think what we are doing is stimulating and directing the righteous qi to expel

the evil qi. In WM, the analogous idea would be stimulating the immune

system to destroy viruses. But why sweating? It is interesting that sweating

has a long history in many different traditional medicines for the purpose of

treating acute respiratory infections. It is considered likely by some cultural

anthropologists that sweating originally developed to expel the demonic

causes of illness. Is there something that happens with sweating that is

crucial to this process of stimulating the immune system? I wonder if any

research has been done in China.

 

We do know there is an optimum temperature for the body to overcome

infection. It is elevated a few degrees above normal. But if it goes higher,

than it becomes counterproductive. Diaphoretic herbs often produce

vasodilation which directs more blood flow to peripheral tissues where the

virus is in large quantities at the onset of illness. A number of diaphoretic

herbs stimulate the immune system to produce more lymphocytes and also

have direct antimicrobial effects. I believe I have seen some studies that

other

forms of inducing sweating also caused changes in immune response. I have

to think that this idea would not have remained so widespread cross culturally

for thousands of years if it did not have some validity. when I was in college,

my best friend had been a soccer player in high school. His european coach

always told the players to run off a sore throat or cold to sweat it out.

 

[Guest guest]

Why not explain the mechanism of action according to chinese thought?? trying to explain external pathogenic influences according to western thouhgt is fitting a round peg in a square hole. we've been through that before. Jason, you are so eloquent, explain to him briefly the differentiation and how it works, its simple! I know you can do that well.

Eti

< wrote:

Dear Group, I was discussing CM with a M.D. recently and one of our convos revolved around colds/flu's. So I ask you, What are some of the ideas that explain our treatment principles of releasing the exterior - sweating - from a western (physiological) perspective. To rephrase, in some situations it is clear that just taking a sauna (i.e. ma huang tang excess presentation's) might do the trick to beat back a 'cold' - common to many westerners - a) how can this sweating be explained in western terms to do the trick (i.e. just a raise in body temp?).. b) but more unclear is our other presentations (i.e. w-h, guizhitang's, w-w-drys' etc) what western explanation can be given for our methods? what do we think is going on from this western angle that explains how we get results... Pushing a pathogen out is fine for CM, but is seems odd to a westerner... Ideas?-Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, Eti Domb <etidomb> wrote:

>

> Why not explain the mechanism of action according to chinese thought??

trying to explain external pathogenic influences according to western thouhgt

is fitting a round peg in a square hole.

 

Eti

 

Your idealism is refreshing, however there would be no surer way to alienate

the medical doctor. It is not only reasonable to expect us to be able to give

such explanations, but it is also a worthy logical exercise. All events in the

human body have physiological correlates. this does not mean that one can

reduce the study of chinese medicine to physiological correlates, it just means

such correlates exist. Concepts like wind invasion don't really " explain "

anything about the internal workings of the body. they are merely metaphoric

tools used to organize symptoms complexes and their associated treatments.

To explain the metaphor by referring to the metaphor is circular logic. these

metaphors are used to describe the human experience of illness. The MD is

interested in the biochemical experience of illness. these are two different

angles on the same phenomena, 2 sides of the same coin.

 

It is completely reasonable to ask what is happening biochemically when

these changes occur on the level of human experience. In fact, this is the

distinct role of modern science. To determine what is going on in the invisible

world of biochemistry. Recently we found that despite the opinions of women

and doctors about the supposed value of hormone replacement therapy,

biochemically these women were either experiencing no benefit or were

having negative changes occur. If the use of diphoretics does not make

scientific sense, it does not matter whether it makes metaphoric sense on the

level of human experience. Insurance will not reimburse for metaphors, no

matter how eloquently crafted and Jason, who is indeed quite eloquent,

knows that full well.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <@i...> wrote:

> , Eti Domb <etidomb> wrote:

> >

> > Why not explain the mechanism of action according to chinese thought??

> trying to explain external pathogenic influences according to western

thouhgt

> is fitting a round peg in a square hole.

>

> Eti

>

> Your idealism is refreshing, however there would be no surer way to

alienate

> the medical doctor.

 

this does remind me of another " explanation " I considered once upon a time.

that is that the climatic factors of dry, heat and cold are actually identical

to

what stress researchers call external stressors. In this model, the exposure to

cold or heat in the presence of an invisible evil (wind) weakens the immune

system and leads to infection. Cold and heat are both used in animal studies

to alter the immune system via the stress hormone system (increased cortisol

from stress lowers immunity). so perhaps the expelling of cold or heat is

exactly that. using herbs that affect peripheral vasodilation to antagonize the

stressor. So by warming the surface, one antagonizes the cold stressor and

immunity is restored in wind-cold.

 

[Guest guest]

Is this the Hans Selye theory of stress? Efrem Korngold always said

that it is similar to Chinese medical ideas of exterior invasion.

 

 

On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 04:27 PM, wrote:

 

>

> this does remind me of another " explanation " I considered once upon a

> time.

> that is that the climatic factors of dry, heat and cold are actually

> identical to

> what stress researchers call external stressors. In this model, the

> exposure to

> cold or heat in the presence of an invisible evil (wind) weakens the

> immune

> system and leads to infection. Cold and heat are both used in animal

> studies

> to alter the immune system via the stress hormone system (increased

> cortisol

> from stress lowers immunity). so perhaps the expelling of cold or

> heat is

> exactly that. using herbs that affect peripheral vasodilation to

> antagonize the

> stressor. So by warming the surface, one antagonizes the cold

> stressor and

> immunity is restored in wind-cold.

>

 

[Guest guest]

I don't think that terms such as wind invasion are merely 'metaphoric'.

They are described naked sense perceptions of phenomena that effect

the body, that are 'real'. Metaphors do not describe real phenomena,

but are symbolic or representational.

 

The perceptions of Chinese physicians may be different than in modern

western medicine, but this doesn't make it any less 'real'.

 

I agree, that an underlying physiological explanation could be

developed for the phenomena of diaphoresis and its ability to dispel

external wind, but it has to be based on sound, logical thinking.

There is enough pharmacological research on Chinese medicinals to

develop an explanation, but this doesn't really address the problem of

how to communicate Chinese medicine to Western physicians.

 

There must be some attempt on the part of Western health professionals

to engage with the concepts of Chinese medicine, rather than just

trying to get Chinese medical concepts to 'fit' Western bias. Those

physicians who I have communicated with have had nothing but rewarding

experiences when they have investigated Chinese medicine on its own

terms.

 

There is enough half-baked pseudo-biomedical attempts to 'explain'

Chinese medicine that have done nothing but confuse matters even more.

 

Finally, in my opinion, it is dishonest to represent Chinese medicine

to insurance companies as anything other than what it is.

 

I once had a case where a woman I treated for liver qi depression with

underlying liver and kidney yin vacuity who had botched breast surgery

and sued a major supplier of breast implants. The company sent an

insurance reviewer and court reporter to my office, and I responded

with the data I received from traditional Chinese diagnosis, no more,

no less, plus the herbal medicines and acupuncture points I used. I

gave traditional observations on her condition and left it at that.

 

Without the tools of modern diagnostics, I would have been putting

myself in potentially troublesome waters in this situation. By

'sticking to my guns', and not going beyond what I am trained and

licensed to do, I was able to honestly interact with the insurance

reviewer and legal authorities, and teach them something about Chinese

medicine at the same time.

 

 

 

 

On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 04:12 PM, wrote:

 

> It is completely reasonable to ask what is happening biochemically when

> these changes occur on the level of human experience. In fact, this

> is the

> distinct role of modern science. To determine what is going on in the

> invisible

> world of biochemistry. Recently we found that despite the opinions of

> women

> and doctors about the supposed value of hormone replacement therapy,

> biochemically these women were either experiencing no benefit or were

> having negative changes occur. If the use of diphoretics does not make

> scientific sense, it does not matter whether it makes metaphoric sense

> on the

> level of human experience. Insurance will not reimburse for

> metaphors, no

> matter how eloquently crafted and Jason, who is indeed quite eloquent,

> knows that full well.

>

 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Is this the Hans Selye theory of stress? Efrem Korngold always said

> that it is similar to Chinese medical ideas of exterior invasion.

 

yes indeed and I quite agree. While conceptually very similar to TCM ideas,

this is still a western explanation.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> I don't think that terms such as wind invasion are merely 'metaphoric'.

> They are described naked sense perceptions of phenomena that effect

> the body, that are 'real'.

 

I am not sure most medical anthropologists would agree with you. Consider

bi syndrome. While one can postulate the reality of the exterior invasion

leading to cold and flu, it makes much less sense when applied to chronic

arthritis. While I postulated an alternative idea about climatic stressors, I

think

the reality is that the chinese were working largely with metaphor, not with

naked sense perception. this is underscoed by the fact that many authorities

consider CM to be more akin to a literary tradition than a scientific one.

Literature is well known for using metaphors.

 

[Guest guest]

, " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> wrote:

If they want to talk about TCM, then talk about TCM. Do they expect us to be

able to start quoting studies about the biomedical effectiveness of our

treatments?

 

 

I think they do. and with all due respect to people's anecdotal exepriences

with MD's, I have had my own. and for about every one MD or nurse who is

openminded to the way we practice on our own terms, I have met ten others

who consider our model ludicrous. I have convinced far more people to try

TCM by reference to science than by reference to chinese cosmology. And it

is a far cry from theorizing about the biochemical action involved in releasing

the exterior to making a claim about the effectiveness of a particular therapy.

Hypothesizing about how an action might occur is the first part of any

scientific

experiment. there is no liability in doing this.

 

The questions seems to simply be, " why would diaphoresis have any effect on

the course of a common cold? " Before even considering the possibility of the

effectiveness of certain therapies, the first question that comes to a certain

type of mind is whether the idea makes any sense. I think this is the question

I

first ask when hearing about new therapies. My personal background is in

neurophysiology; that's what I got my B.S. in. I think it is the first question

that

most of the people I worked with in the biological sciences would ask. It might

not be the first question people in our field ask or the first question a

layperson would ask. But I am fairly openminded in this area in that I will

consider any hypothesis (magic, demons, etc.), but I think most others with my

background are even more conservative and skeptical than myself. These

are the decisionmakers I want to convince and it brings me full circle to my

oft-

stated position that paradigms shift by challenging so-called normal science

first on its own terms.

 

Paradigms do not shift by just claiming the new paradigm is superior without

subjecting it to the tests of the old paradigm. This is what Kuhn actually

wrote.

Arguably, the paradigm shift we have all been awaiting since the early 70's

has been so slow in coming because we have clung stubbornly to the notion

that we will win because we are right. We will not win until we engage in

battle.

 

[Guest guest]

, Eti Domb <etidomb> wrote:

>

> Why not explain the mechanism of action according to chinese thought?? tr=

ying to explain external pathogenic influences according to western thouhgt =

is fitting a round peg in a square hole. we've been through that before. Ja=

son, you are so eloquent, explain to him briefly the differentiation and how=

it works, its simple! I know you can do that well.

> Eti

>

 

Group,

 

Eti, Thank you for the compliment, and yes I have no problem explaining 'ou=

r' concept of what is going on to an M.D. ( & others), and actually the M.D. =

followed my explanation with ease, somewhat amused, but interested & fascina=

ted. - he was a friend...

But there is a bigger point here. Firstly, I do not believe that explainin=

g a Chinese concept in western terms is fitting a round peg in a square hole=

.. I think they are two languages describing the same phenomenon, (or at lea=

st potentially). And this is actually an exercise for myself more than for =

the M.D. - A broader understanding of ways to communicate 'our' ideas can on=

ly help our current struggle for acknowledgment.

 

Secondly, I do not think that, by sticking to our guns, and speaking in 'us=

eless' terminology to an M.D. (i.e. the patient has a wind-cold-damp pathoge=

n lodged in the joints, with an underlying kidney yang deficiency and this i=

s evidenced by a butterfly pulse etc) does us any good in advancing our prof=

ession. AS true as we believe this vision to be , there are other just as v=

alid explanations of what is going on. And some of these other explanations=

may use terminology that Westerners understand more easily. I see this tru=

e for language in general. I could go to a foreign country and just speak En=

glish all day and everyone will just stare at me and say isn't he nice, or I=

can learn to speak their language and they might then say oh, not only is h=

e nice, but hey I understand what he talking about...

SO why should we have to learn there language and not the other way around?=

Well, I see no debate here, Western Medicine prevails and if we want to exp=

and, work closer with them, getting more access and responsibility in treati=

ng real-difficult diseases, we must communicate with them. This IS NOT sell=

ing out. Our treatment and medicine is the same. Just different words for =

outsiders.

 

I see no reason to keep our medicine in some bubble that only WE can unders=

tand. What are we afraid of? And to think only Chinese medicine can explain=

Chinese medicine IS IMO just plain ignorance.

 

Z'ev - you are though right, there is a lot of half-baked attempts at what =

we are talking about. No doubt! but I don't think we should stop trying beca=

use of insufficient attempts of the past.

 

I think that much of our recent attention in this country is due to what bi=

omedicine has been able to explain and understand from their perspective, sp=

ecifically for acupuncture. I think when 20/20 airs a segment on how acupun=

cture is seen to help lower-back pain (or whatever) is one of the biggest bo=

osts for our profession. This does not happen because we say it is so, or 1=

00 patients call the show, it is because some research has proved it and/or =

they can make sense of it in there terms… but I could be wrong… I see only =

one way herbs will be readily accepted in this country. And that is outlined=

above.

 

-

[Guest guest]

I don't know. I certainly feel like I have look within the constraints of the metaphor for my diagnosis, and treatment. If a doctor doesn't like the metaphor when it works with herbs, he's going to like it even less when it works with acupuncture and moxa, since its the treatment principle were talking about, not only the herbs used. Chinese medicines strength has always seemed to me to be its total happy acceptance of a good idea when it came down the pike. That said, I see no reason why we shouldn't add biomedicine's perspective, and I certainly wouldn't eschew good biomedical advice.

 

Considering the rate at which science is "discovering" new ways the body conducts its business, I suspect, and to some extent hope that its secrets will be secret for some time to come. It seems a bleak prospect when "health science" can do for health what "food science" has done for eating and nutrition.

 

It seems like there are plenty of MDs who are at least willing to capitalize on the idea of holism, if not get behind it in a more wholehearted way. If they want to talk about TCM, then talk about TCM. Do they expect us to be able to start quoting studies about the biomedical effectiveness of our treatments? On one level I'd like to be able to do that, it would certainly make me feel better when I look at a patient and give them a prognosis. But it's not my training, or my bailiwick. I could get arrested if I go around making all sorts of biomedical assertions, can't I?

 

As for insurance companies, I suspect they would pay for wearing a stupid looking hat if it would make people stop submitting claims, as long as the hats were cheap.

 

-

 

Friday, November 15, 2002 4:12 PM

Re: Releasing the Exterior...

, Eti Domb <etidomb> wrote:> > Why not explain the mechanism of action according to chinese thought?? trying to explain external pathogenic influences according to western thouhgt is fitting a round peg in a square hole.EtiYour idealism is refreshing, however there would be no surer way to alienate the medical doctor. It is not only reasonable to expect us to be able to give such explanations, but it is also a worthy logical exercise. All events in the human body have physiological correlates. this does not mean that one can reduce the study of chinese medicine to physiological correlates, it just means such correlates exist. Concepts like wind invasion don't really "explain" anything about the internal workings of the body. they are merely metaphoric tools used to organize symptoms complexes and their associated treatments. To explain the metaphor by referring to the metaphor is circular logic. these metaphors are used to describe the human experience of illness. The MD is interested in the biochemical experience of illness. these are two different angles on the same phenomena, 2 sides of the same coin. It is completely reasonable to ask what is happening biochemically when these changes occur on the level of human experience. In fact, this is the distinct role of modern science. To determine what is going on in the invisible world of biochemistry. Recently we found that despite the opinions of women and doctors about the supposed value of hormone replacement therapy, biochemically these women were either experiencing no benefit or were having negative changes occur. If the use of diphoretics does not make scientific sense, it does not matter whether it makes metaphoric sense on the level of human experience. Insurance will not reimburse for metaphors, no matter how eloquently crafted and Jason, who is indeed quite eloquent, knows that full well.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev and Todd And Ken and ....

 

Z'ev

I agree, that an underlying physiological explanation could be developed for the phenomena of diaphoresis and its ability to dispel external wind, but it has to be based on sound, logical thinking. There is enough pharmacological research on Chinese medicinals to develop an explanation, but this doesn't really address the problem of how to communicate Chinese medicine to Western physicians.

Marco:

 

What's more it does not fully explain and or elaborate on what actually is the impulse for clinical decision making in Chinese medicine and does always have the danger of making something which is farley interconnected (maybe a better term then wholistic?) becomes isolated and only "empirical", because the explanation becomes methodical in terms of biochemistry - physiology and not interms of "implicit action" that does exits if there is a different "type" Pattern of wind cold. Hence rendering any further synchronistical and analytical observations meaningless and hence impeds the development of Chinese medicine into the "scheme" relayed and comment on by Ken:

 

This is one of the fundamental preceptsof Chinese medicine: different patient;different time; different place: differenttreatment. We could also add "differenttheory" to that list. If theory X doesn'tilluminate matters, it's obviously thewrong theory to be using. So use a differentone.

Since these observational factors and thus contributors to good practice would have no further generative information.

 

However at the same time I think that if people Like Todd and others whom share a similar approach could compile articles on materialistically (I am not saying that Todds approach in treatment is bio-meteralistical) views of Functionality of Chinese medicine. This would be a interesting essays and or even in the future a book(s) but I am alluding more to something also stated by Ken:

 

So we could proceed along a path thatwas suggested to me by John Holland, namelyto make up three lists. The first isa list of Chinese medical terms andconcepts. The second is a list of Western medical terms and concepts.The third is a list of the implieddynamics of the human body to whichthe terms/concepts on the first twolists make reference.

Marco:

 

Thus contributing to what the just above paragraph is elaborating and giving material to relies such interesting endower.

 

Ken who is John Holland?

 

Marco...

 

 

[Guest guest]

Marco,

 

>

> Thus contributing to what the just above paragraph is elaborating

and giving material to relies such interesting endower.

>

> Ken who is John Holland?

 

Check out http://www.santafe.edu/

 

There's a picture of John Holland

and several other SFI folks standing

in the middle of Tian An Men Square

in Beijing. John is the fellow second

from the right as you look at the photo,

next to the woman in the red jacket.

 

He's on the faculty at the Univ. of

Michigan in psychology and computer

science. He is the author of several

seminal texts on complex adaptive

systems, genetic algorithms, and

a wide range of topics related to

what we call complexity. He's one

of the founding members of the Santa

Fe Institute.

 

His remarks that I cited came in

response to the article on complexity

and Chinese medicine that Zhu Jian Ping

and I wrote, which was recently published

in CAOM. I also just posted it at the

Complexity and list

if anyone who wants to go and check

it out.

 

I find there is a rapidly growing

group of people who are interested in

looking into the confluence of these

two disciplines.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

I also don't think we should stop trying to communicate with western

medical professionals. We just need to do a better job of it.

However, communication is a two-way street, and I don't think it is

unreasonable to ask western physicians to have open minds and learn

something about Chinese medicine. I've lectured to medical students in

UC Irvine, UCSD, and in Seattle, and they were all interested in

hearing about Chinese medicine 'as is'.

 

Even describing one phenomenon such as wind-cold invasion and the

body's response is not simple, in either Chinese or biomedical terms.

I've heard too many descriptions of Chinese medical processes

oversimplified through lack of understanding of basic concepts, and

then expressed in pseudo-biomedical metaphors that made no sense.

 

A physician who used to teach at PCOM once asked a class of thirty

students a few years ago what Chinese medicine meant by 'toxin'. Not

one student could answer! An embarassment. While the situation has

improved greatly (at PCOM), I wonder how many practitioners out there

could explain the Chinese concept of du/toxin to a physician.

 

 

On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 06:38 PM, wrote:

 

> Well, I see no debate here, Western Medicine prevails and if we want

> to exp=

> and, work closer with them, getting more access and responsibility in

> treati=

> ng real-difficult diseases, we must communicate with them. This IS

> NOT sell=

> ing out. Our treatment and medicine is the same. Just different

> words for =

> outsiders.

>

> I see no reason to keep our medicine in some bubble that only WE can

> unders=

> tand. What are we afraid of? And to think only Chinese medicine can

> explain=

> Chinese medicine IS IMO just plain ignorance.

>

> Z'ev - you are though right, there is a lot of half-baked attempts at

> what =

> we are talking about. No doubt! but I don't think we should stop

> trying beca=

> use of insufficient attempts of the past.

[Guest guest]

Could you explain this to me. What is the Chinese concept of du/toxin?

 

:-)

 

Thank You!

 

Worldpeace,

Benjamin

 

<< A physician who used to teach at PCOM once asked a class of thirty

students a few years ago what Chinese medicine meant by 'toxin'. Not

one student could answer! An embarassment. While the situation has

improved greatly (at PCOM), I wonder how many practitioners out there

could explain the Chinese concept of du/toxin to a physician. >>

[Guest guest]

One of four definitions in the Wiseman dictionary:

Du2/toxin: evil qi that causes painful reddening and swelling,

suppuration or weeping discharge.

 

 

On Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 11:30 AM, sensimus wrote:

 

> Could you explain this to me. What is the Chinese concept of du/toxin?

>

> :-)

>

> Thank You!

>

> Worldpeace,

> Benjamin

>

> << A physician who used to teach at PCOM once asked a class of thirty

> students a few years ago what Chinese medicine meant by 'toxin'. Not

> one student could answer! An embarassment. While the situation has

> improved greatly (at PCOM), I wonder how many practitioners out there

> could explain the Chinese concept of du/toxin to a physician. >>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> A physician who used to teach at PCOM once asked a class of thirty

> students a few years ago what Chinese medicine meant by 'toxin'. Not

> one student could answer! An embarassment. While the situation has

> improved greatly (at PCOM), I wonder how many practitioners out there

> could explain the Chinese concept of du/toxin to a physician.

>

>

> On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 06:38 PM, wrote:

 

Hi Z'ev,

 

Are you referring to pattern, like an environmental toxin, that turns into a

Latent Heat Pathogen?

 

Teresa

[Guest guest]

That is one possibility.

 

Definition # 1 in the Wiseman dictionary: " any substance that is

harmful to the body when eaten or entering the body through a wound or

the skin. "

 

 

On Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 07:14 PM, Teresa Hall wrote:

 

>

> Hi Z'ev,

>

> Are you referring to pattern, like an environmental toxin, that turns

> into a

> Latent Heat Pathogen?

>

> Teresa

[Guest guest]

I've lectured to medical students in UC Irvine, UCSD, and in Seattle, and they were all interested in hearing about Chinese medicine 'as is'

>>>In that setting I have as well many times. But most other settings it does not work.

Alon

[Guest guest]

One of four definitions in the Wiseman dictionary:Du2/toxin: evil qi that causes painful reddening and swelling, suppuration or weeping discharge

>>>Zev the others are toxins in herbs. Toxins from severe heat fever

Alon

[Guest guest]

Have you ever sat in the audience of a lecture that you aren't really

interested in? You are not going to get something out of it. What is

the point of lecturing in places where people are not interested in

what you have to say?

 

Z'ev

On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 07:37 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> I've lectured to medical students in

> UC Irvine, UCSD, and in Seattle, and they were all interested in

> hearing about Chinese medicine 'as is'

> >>>In that setting I have as well many times. But most other settings

> it does not work.

> Alon

[Guest guest]

Have you ever sat in the audience of a lecture that you aren't really interested in? You are not going to get something out of it. What is the point of lecturing in places where people are not interested in what you have to say?>>>That is my point Zev

Alon