herbs vs. drugs

[Guest guest]

I mentioned in clinic that unlike drugs, chinese herb formulas are always

used to improve the function of the body rather than merely relieving or

suppressing symptoms. It is not that drugs cannot do this, but that hasn'

t really been the goal. While many of the herbs in formulas are used for

symptoms, the formula as a whole is geared towards improvement of function

in treating chronic illness. Arguably, substances like quercetin and

coenzyme Q are essentially drugs, being purified extracts of natural

substances. Same with megadoses of vitamins. Such " drugs " do confer

longterm benefit on their users. But I did not think any pharmaceuticals

were typically used this way. An intern gave two examples:

 

1. SSRI's, which may reset brain chemistry after 6 months to 2 years and

thus " cure " depression by correcting brain function

 

2. Vaccines which stimulate the immune system to prevent disease.

 

While number 1 may have merit, I dispute number 2. Vaccines do not

improve the immune system, they just expose to something to prime it. But

a vaccine only works if the immune system works. Arguably, vaccines may

damage the immune system. they may be implicated in various neurological

and autoimmune diseases. It is definite;ly a long held tenet of natural

medicine that vaccines are bad for you.

 

As for number 1, does prozac really reset the brain or is most depression

self limited?

 

When I think of the drugs used to treat the diseases that are the leading

causes of death and debility, such as diabetes, heart disease,

hypertension, chronic pain, liver disease, autoimmunity, in all cases the

approach is palliative or suppressive. the drugs are not used to restore

normal organ function. Major depression is a leading cause of death (by

suicide). But in those cases, whatever the goal of prozac therapy, the

clinical reality is most such patient remain on their drugs indefinitely.

 

I do believe drugs can be used to reset brain chemistry for long term

benefit. I know of an orange county doc who has had great success

treating CFIDS and FMS this way. I also think the next generation of

pharmaceutics will be geared in this direction. Early successes in stem

cell therapy show that western medicine can correct organ function when.

I just think this is certainly the exception rather than the rule in WM.

In the all the cases described above, chinese herbs can actually improve

function and this is the rule rather than the exception.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre

minds " -- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

> I just think this is certainly the exception rather than the rule in WM.

> In the all the cases described above, chinese herbs can actually improve

> function and this is the rule rather than the exception.

>

 

 

 

I agree with your statements. But just to show a slightly different side to

Chinese herbs, let us use the original intention (or hypothesized) of the SHL.

Many say that the whole book/ all formulas really have 1 goal - eliminate the

pathogen from the body. The Rx do not have an intention of improving function

of the body. Although, now of course, we use many of those formulas in this

way.. I think it is interesting to view these formulas in this way... Also I

imagine many wenbing Rxs are the same. And this way of thinking is still

valuable in certain situations, and for a very good reason. SPEED of recovery.

For example, a case study involving a woman with chronic menstrual problem, was

unsuccessfully treated with basic zang-fu (xiao yao san, blood inv. etc) for

quite some time. From the case history this would be most of our zang-fu

interpretations. BUt what actually CURED the woman was acknowledging that she

had a cold pathogen lodged in the uterus, and ma huang tang was the solution,

and it CURED the problem within 1 week of herbs. This is purely about riding

the pathogen, similar to western view (virus, bacteria, flukes) etc... Function

was only restored due to elimination of this pathogen, not from the Rx.

 

-JAson

 

-JAson

[Guest guest]

, " " <@h...> wrote:

The Rx do not have an intention of improving function of the body. Although,

now of course, we use many of those formulas in this way.. I think it is

interesting to view these formulas in this way...

 

I agree. it is an equal mistake to think chinese med is always focused on

balance. I often see supplementation being done when draining is called for.

Two questions.

 

1. Was this an observed case (cold uterus) or one that you read about? I

have read about numerous such cases over the years, but have only rarely

witnessed a sustained result, though I have seen many attempts to treat

chronic illness using this approach. In most of those cases, a standard zang

fu approach using adequate herb dosage usually succeeeded. Perhaps it

was the poor skill of the SHL type prescribers, but illness of long standing is

probably rarely due to an excess condition, IMO.

 

2. aren't formulas for yin stages of disease focused on improving body

function as the method for expelling pathogen at those levels.

 

Whatever the goal of the SHL or wen bing texts, those are not the prevailing

method for treating chronic illness for at least 400 years. The emphasis in

recent centuries seems to be very much on improving function in combination

with draining pathogen. However, I agree with Jason that one should never

forget these methods especially when zang fu diagnosis fails. But if the

draining formula is going to work, it will work quickly. this is not

justification for

longterm use of draining formulas in chronic illness (such as is often done in

herpes). We need to be openminded, but also to look for horses when we

hear hooves pounding over the horizon, not zebras. A true case of cold

uterus should be distinguishable based upon presentation. I am concerned

that others (not Jason) will be seduced by any idea other than TCM as an

excuse to give nonstandard care as a first measure without careful pattern

discrimination.

 

[Guest guest]

A psychiatrist who used to live in San Diego observed that SSRI's did

'reset' brain chemistry, but not for the better. A recent study

published in Discover magazine last year showed that neurochemical

pathways were reset by the drugs, but leading to damage to seritonin

receptors over time that made it difficult for patients to discontinue

the drugs.

 

 

On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 10:03 PM, wrote:

 

> As for number 1, does prozac really reset the brain or is most

> depression self limited?

[Guest guest]

This is not true. Search yin qiao san discourse on the list.

 

Will

 

chinese herb formulas are always used to improve the function of the body rather than merely relieving or suppressing symptoms.

[Guest guest]

A psychiatrist who used to live in San Diego observed that SSRI's did 'reset' brain chemistry, but not for the better. A recent study published in Discover magazine last year showed that neurochemical pathways were reset by the drugs, but leading to damage to seritonin receptors over time that made it difficult for patients to discontinue the drugs.>>>It really depends on the type of depression. Endogenous types would need treatment for life time.

Alon