Guest guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 I treated a student for a severe dermatitis. I used a variation of xiao feng san. 1 pack containing chan tui gave good relief. so I deleted the chan tui and added some herbs to try and moisten the dryness and heal the cracking (he shou wu and mai men dong). 3 packs. the condition worsened dramatically. At the patient's request I added back the chan tui, which I don't even like to use. 3 packs. complete relief. I am surprised that one herb seemingly made so much difference. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 , <@i...> wrote: I am surprised that one herb seemingly made so much difference.>> What a thing for an herbalist to say! This is an example of the necessity of looking at an herb's actions from the taste and channel induction too. In an earlier post, you said that you didn't think it important and now you find a case where it is. Because it is sweet and cold and courses the lung and liver channels, Chan tui helps stop the liver from sending wind/heat externally (a common condition for skin problems). Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 , <@i...> wrote: > I treated a student for a severe dermatitis. I used a variation of xiao > feng san. 1 pack containing chan tui gave good relief. so I deleted the > chan tui and added some herbs to try and moisten the dryness and heal the > cracking (he shou wu and mai men dong). 3 packs. the condition worsened > dramatically. At the patient's request I added back the chan tui, which I > don't even like to use. 3 packs. complete relief. I am surprised that > one herb seemingly made so much difference. I think that this happens a lot with skin disease, (prehaps its just that its most obvious here). I find that which herb from a category works best is largely an empirical matter, although of course one can justify it afterwards! Also i find that dispelling, clearing and draining is usually the right approach even when the skin looks like it needs moistening and nourishing. Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 , <@i...> wrote: added some herbs to try and moisten the dryness and heal the > cracking (he shou wu and mai men dong). 3 packs. the condition worsened > dramatically. Hi Todd. This is a quote from an article written by Mazin Al-Khafaji: " A common and understandable mistake that is frequently made.. is the desire to use blood and yin nourishing ingredients for the dry phase of this disease. This should be resisted... The dryness is the product of obstruction by dampness and fire-toxin, and using tonic medicines will compound the problem by as it were 'adding oil to the fire'. " This article is about pompholyx eczema but i think this logic can be applied to other skin conditions where tonify blood and yin leads to a worsening of the condtion. The article can be found in this link: http://www.jcm.co.uk/SampleArticles/pompholyx.pdf Levin Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 I added back the chan tui, which I don't even like to use >>>Why not? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 , " Danny Levin " <lvds@n...> wrote: > > This is a quote from an article written by Mazin Al-Khafaji: > " A common and understandable mistake that is frequently made.. > is the desire to use blood and yin nourishing ingredients for the dry > phase of this disease. This should be resisted... The dryness is the > product of obstruction by dampness and fire-toxin, and using tonic > medicines will compound the problem by as it were 'adding oil to the > fire'. " I think this is what happened. admittedly, I treat very few skin diseases. It was a relatively acute dermatitis, not a chronic eczema, so I don't think Jim's explanation about chan tui was valid in my case. In fact, because the patient is old and has a quite peeled tongue, I mistook there to be an internal component when in hindsight that does not appear to be the case. It was completely exterior. In my own defense regarding channel entering as a clinical tool, I believe I have publicly retracted my earlier comments since I have had numerous opportunities to see the folly of my ways since that time. In fact, temp, taste and channel now form a key part of my teaching method, which is a deviation from my teachers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 I think this is what happened. admittedly, I treat very few skin diseases. >>>Todd I think this happens in others diseases all the time as well. The temptation to notify too early or at all is too great and done too often when not appropriate Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I think this is what happened. admittedly, I treat very few skin diseases. > >>>Todd I think this happens in others diseases all the time as well. The temptation to notify too early or at all is too great and done too often when not appropriate I am usally more careful about this. the patient seemed on the mend after one pack and he was quite yin xu. I did continue with xiao feng san, just minus the chan tui, plus 2 moistening herbs in low dose. the formula still had a heavy emphasis on dispelling wind, stopping itching, cooling blood. given that the patient was yin xu, which may have predisposed him to the blood heat, it all seemed logical. the best learning is from cases where an error is made, corrected and then success. I wish more people on this list and in english journals would record their errors and rectifications. this is apparently common practice in chinese case studies, as exemplified by chip chace's fleshing out the bones. In the USA, case presentations by senior docs tend to be self congratulatory. Everybody is apparently successful all the time. I don't buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 I did continue with xiao feng san, just minus the chan tui, plus 2 moistening herbs in low dose. the formula still had a heavy emphasis on dispelling wind, stopping itching, cooling blood. >>>To me this question is also important in orthopedics as this to some extent is an external medicine as well. For example, what should be the balance of information used from Organ diagnosis with tongue and pulse being very central.I have found it necessary to use information obtained from the tissues that are being treated to be more important many times. Any thoughts or input. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2002 Report Share Posted November 30, 2002 Message: 7 Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:53:14 -0600 " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus Re: Re: experience --for what its worth I did continue with xiao feng san, just minus the chan tui, plus 2 moistening herbs in low dose. the formula still had a heavy emphasis on dispelling wind, stopping itching, cooling blood. >>>To me this question is also important in orthopedics as this to some extent is an external medicine as well. For example, what should be the balance of information used from Organ diagnosis with tongue and pulse being very central.I have found it necessary to use information obtained from the tissues that are being treated to be more important many times. Any thoughts or input. Alon Yes, I also do a lot of work in orthopedics and find that " information from the tissues " is often the most important Dx finding directing me as to how and what to treat. Mark Fradkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2002 Report Share Posted November 30, 2002 , Mark Fradkin <mfrad@b...> wrote: > Yes, I also do a lot of work in orthopedics and find that " information > from the tissues " is often the most important Dx finding directing me as > to how and what to treat. > > Mark Fradkin :-) I don't understand your terminology. what do you mean by information from the tissues (I do little ortho treatment myself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2002 Report Share Posted November 30, 2002 I don't understand your terminology. what do you mean by information from the tissues (I do little ortho treatment myself).>>>For example when treating a joint, if the end-feel at the joint is soggy, ie the joint comes to a stop and if pressure is continues it give a little means there is fluid in the joint. I find it then necessary to use this information preempting signs of pulse or tongue when writing a formula often (not always). There are many other such examples. My point was that in skin disease it is well known that one often ignores organ, tongue and pulse symptom signs and writes a formula base on the appearance of the skin. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 , " " <@i...> wrote: > , Mark Fradkin <mfrad@b...> wrote: > > > Yes, I also do a lot of work in orthopedics and find that " information > > from the tissues " is often the most important Dx finding directing me as > > to how and what to treat. > > > > Mark Fradkin > > > :-) I don't understand your terminology. what do you mean by information > from the tissues (I do little ortho treatment myself). > When I evaluate a patient who has chronic pain related to a soft tissue injury and/or long term biomechanical imbalances, the PE(physical exam) of the joints and soft tissues involved directs my immediate Tx strategy. What I call " tissue quality " is the critical piece of " objective " information that I use to determine if Qi stagnation or Blood Stasis prevails in the tissues and to what degree. Many years of doing palpation and hands on therapy everyday has given me a developed sense of just how healthy tissues are compared to normal. I define normal soft tissue as healthy if it is supple. I define supple as tissue that is strong, flexible(full ROM) and not tender upon palpation. Unhealthy soft tissue shows a wide range of qualities such as- hard, tight, spasm, tender, knotty, etc. all of which can be associated with some degree of chronicity and dysfunction. As Alon said earlier this is external medicine; therefore, that is how I justify using the findings from the exterior to direct my initial Tx strategy. As a support to the orthopedic Tx I also like to use herbal Rx to work on the systemic patterns that I find. In some cases, though not most, my primary " orthopedic Tx " will be a herbal Rx. I hope this answers your question. Or maybe it raises many more? Mark Fradkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 , " fradkin724 " <mfrad@b...> wrote: > I hope this answers your question. Or maybe it raises many more? > > Mark Fradkin I follow you completely. Patients often ask me how I know where the " spot " is? Same thing about experience palpating tissues. Are your palpatory correlations rooted in any CM or japanese or other sources or personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 Are your palpatory correlations rooted in any CM or japanese or other sources or personal experience. >>>I integrate both OM ie Japanese and CM and Orthopaedic and osteopathic methods. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Put together I find my choices and scope of understanding increase. If I am giving herbs then I translate it to CM terms. If I palpate "channels" for example teaching from osteopathy have enhanced my ability to feel inert motions (circulation?) in channels and tissues. I am not always sure how to interpret them and still exploring. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 Dear Mark, Alon and Todd... Interesting there is an article written by Dan Bensky http://www.siom.com/resources/texts/articles.html "Listening to the Channels: Preliminary Reflections on the Adaptation of One Form of Osteopathic Palpation to Acupuncture" from North American Journal of Oriental Medicine (reprinted by permission) You probably are aware of it. However, I am wondering if any of you have written on the topic in question? I am well aware that it is in the intrinsic of actual inter-connection and inter-communication between practitioner and patient, but ask since I am far from where you are... Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 , " " <@i...> wrote: > , " fradkin724 " <mfrad@b...> wrote: > > > I hope this answers your question. Or maybe it raises many more? > > > > Mark Fradkin > > I follow you completely. Patients often ask me how I know where the " spot " > is? Same thing about experience palpating tissues. Are your palpatory > correlations rooted in any CM or japanese or other sources or personal > experience. > > My palpatory correlations are a combination of my training in CM, Neuromuscular Therapy, and experience. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Are your palpatory > correlations rooted in any CM or japanese or other sources or personal > experience. > > >>>I integrate both OM ie Japanese and CM and Orthopaedic and osteopathic methods. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Put together I find my choices and scope of understanding increase. If I am giving herbs then I translate it to CM terms. If I palpate " channels " for example teaching from osteopathy have enhanced my ability to feel inert motions (circulation?) in channels and tissues. I am not always sure how to interpret them and still exploring. > Alon Yes, this sounds similar to my experience and approach as well. Although I have found the combination of CM and NMT to be very effective most of the time some patient's " soft tissue terrain " is difficult to interpret, as Alon has said. Much yet to explore and develop! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 , " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > " Listening to the Channels: Preliminary Reflections on the Adaptation of One Form of Osteopathic Palpation to Acupuncture " from North American Journal of Oriental Medicine (reprinted by permission) dan has always been big onthis stuff. eastland has published books on visceral manipulation. he is a DO, after all. I have not read the article, but I like that he delineates it as an adaptation rather than pretending it is TCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 Dear Thanks, Do you + list recomend any book in particuliar? Marco - Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:42 PM Re: experience --for what its worth , "Marco" <bergh@i...> wrote:> "Listening to the Channels: Preliminary Reflections on the Adaptation of One Form of Osteopathic Palpation to Acupuncture" from North American Journal of Oriental Medicine (reprinted by permission)dan has always been big onthis stuff. eastland has published books on visceral manipulation. he is a DO, after all. I have not read the article, but I like that he delineates it as an adaptation rather than pretending it is TCM.Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 Interesting there is an article written by Dan Bensky >>>When palpating channels I find it necessary to actually hold two point on each channel bilaterally. Doing this I found flow (or movement I feel) to sometimes be in opposite directions in left and right channels. Some in proximal and other time distal direction Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 dan has always been big onthis stuff. eastland has published books on visceral manipulation. he is a DO, after all. I have not read the article, but I like that he delineates it as an adaptation rather than pretending it is TCM. >>It would be silly to pretend its TCM, However at the same time there are tremendous theoretical and basic principle parallels between osteopathy and OM. I heard a story that the founder of osteopathy rented his first office space from a Chinese store owner and one wanders if they did not talk to each other. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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