Language

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, Alon, and all,

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> I don't agree. I think within 30 hours, one can begin simple

> translation work.

 

One begins translation work the very instant

that one begins to study a foreign language.

One of the important benchmarks in language

study is when the student ceases to engage

in translation and simply functions in the

language being studied.

 

This discussion about the relevance and importance

of language learning in the education and training

of practitioners of Chinese medicine is constantly

distorted on this list by those who insist that there

is some inherent conflict between learning the language

of the subject and studying and practicing medicine in the

clinic. Of course, there is no such conflict.

 

A course of study must first and foremost be

designed around a concern for what it takes

to bring into the possession of students

those tools that have been found indispensable

by former students and practitioners. The

idea that there's not enough time just

doesn't make any sense. It would be like

saying there just isn't enough time to

teach an astronaut how to fly the space

shuttle. There's whatever time it takes

to learn to do any technical subject until

you have the requisite knowledge, understanding,

experience and skill to do it professionally.

 

Knowing the meaning of the Chinese medical

terms that serve as the foundations of

Chinese medical theory and practice is

a good thing. It is a necessary thing.

It supports the development of strong,

clinical understanding and skill.

 

The question of why it was omitted from

the curriculum in the early days of the

subject and why so many of the materials

that have come to be regarded and used

as the foundation texts in the subject

neglected or omitted the nomenclature

is a fascinating one. Maybe those who

want to pursue it can meet on the

ChineseMedicine.net list.

 

Alon, you continually demand to be given

examples that will convince you. But it

seems to me that you have already made up

your mind. You told us earlier that after a

year or two of studying Chinese you decided

it wasn't worth your time and gave it up.

 

I submit for your consideration the possibility

that your personal experience is more representative

of the student than the subject. I know many people

who after similar periods of study have become

quite capable...not to mention appreciative

students of the subject.

 

You are certainly entitled to whatever opinion

you have on the subject. But since we are in

a public forum here, I think it is important

that everyone recognize that it is the opinion

of a student who did not progress very far

in the study and in the end gave it up as

not worth the time. Again, I want to make it very

clear that I am not talking about your

qualifications as a practitioner. I am speaking

in a very narrow sense about your own characterization

of your experience with the study of Chinese

medical language.

 

As to my own qualifications, as they have

been indirectly questioned, I will try to

make them as clear as I can.

 

I am a student. I have been a student for

quite a while now, and I hope to remain

one for the rest of my life. In my experience

in the clinic, the more I understand

the better. And in my experience, learning

the meanings of Chinese medical terms

has only helped me understand clinical

realities more clearly.

 

Ken

 

>

> On Wednesday, November 27, 2002, at 03:42 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

>

> > Why rob Peter to pay Paul? If students need more time, increase

the

> > hours, or prioritize other subjects to make room for medical

Chinese.

> > They do at Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine, why not at

other

> > schools

> > >>>Because 4000 hours are a short time. I would think that to

learn

> > good Chinese would take almost the entire time

> > Alon

> >

[Guest guest]

It would be likesaying there just isn't enough time toteach an astronaut how to fly the spaceshuttle.

>>>No that is like saying the astronaut needs to study mechanical, electrical, electronics, and bio engineering because he needs to operate and fly equipment that was designed using these languages.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Knowing the meaning of the Chinese medicalterms that serve as the foundations ofChinese medical theory and practice isa good thing. It is a necessary thing.It supports the development of strong,clinical understanding and skill.>>>No question one can not practice CM without this. Does this have to be done in Chinese? why good dictionaries of Chinese medical terms.

Alon

[Guest guest]

did not progress very farin the study and in the end gave it up asnot worth the time

>>>If you are talking about TCM clinical practice I would put my outcomes against yours any day. If you are talking about your passions well only you can speak of that

Alon

[Guest guest]

I want to make it veryclear that I am not talking about yourqualifications as a practitioner. I am speakingin a very narrow sense about your own characterizationof your experience with the study of Chinesemedical language.>>>Well to me that is why one would want to learn the language. Again if it is for the sake of being Chinese I have no interest.

Alon

[Guest guest]

I am a student. I have been a student forquite a while now, and I hope to remainone for the rest of my life. In my experiencein the clinic, the more I understandthe better. And in my experience, learningthe meanings of Chinese medical termshas only helped me understand clinicalrealities more clearly. >>>I hope you do not think you are the only one that thinks this

Alon

[Guest guest]

Alon, you continually demand to be givenexamples that will convince you. But itseems to me that you have already made up your mind. You told us earlier that after a year or two of studying Chinese you decidedit wasn't worth your time and gave it up.>>>I submit to you that you can not give an example and therefore cling to your values and investment. When you give me an example that can not be written and understood in English I would hear your words.

alon

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> A course of study must first and foremost be

> designed around a concern for what it takes

> to bring into the possession of students

> those tools that have been found indispensable

> by former students and practitioners. The

> idea that there's not enough time just

> doesn't make any sense. It would be like

> saying there just isn't enough time to

> teach an astronaut how to fly the space

> shuttle. There's whatever time it takes

> to learn to do any technical subject until

> you have the requisite knowledge, understanding,

> experience and skill to do it professionally.

>

 

Again, all of this talk is going to be misconstrued until we get some

idea of what you or others would consider " requisite " to be.

 

Since you've characterized this situation as an " illness " , let's try

to frame it as such; let's make an analogy to a patient who has an

illness that we can see even though the patient is having trouble

seeing it. For example, obesity... say we have a patient who is

clearly morbidly obese though feeling fine. We say " you are terribly

overweight and until you lose enough weight you will be at risk for

terrible health consequences " .

 

The patient is unlikely to comply unless we are able to explain:

*How much weight the patient needs to lose to avoid health risks

associated with obesity (ie ideal weight or body mass)

*Why the patient needs to lose the weight (ie the consequences that

will likely follow unless the patient complies)

*Concrete steps the patient can follow to enable them to change their

lifestyle in order to lose weight

 

To bring it back to the point, the debate will continue to descend

into the mud until we have some realistic idea of *how much* Chinese

is necessary, and *what are the real professional and personal

benefits* of taking the time to study the material. And then

support -- for example, Z'ev, who is clearly extremely busy with his

teaching, practice, family and religious obligations, what concrete

steps would you give to someone who is looking to fit study time into

their lives?

 

> Knowing the meaning of the Chinese medical

> terms that serve as the foundations of

> Chinese medical theory and practice is

> a good thing. It is a necessary thing.

> It supports the development of strong,

> clinical understanding and skill.

 

I think nobody disputes this... again, what is your vision of the

outcome? If it is that every CM practitioner can recognize 100

characters and know the basic Wiseman dictionary definition, then

this is an attainable goal; if it is to know Chinese well enough to

translate complicated texts from various periods in CM history, this

is far less likely. If it is to be able to know the myrid nuances

associated with each character (remembering that earlier " Tong "

discussion), you're talking nearly impossible to achieve. I've been

living as a gringo in a Spanish-speaking household for over a decade

and I still can't say I've got the nuance thing down.

 

Speaking of weight issues, I'm off to eat some Cuban turkey. Feliz

dia del pavo....

 

Robert Hayden

http://jabinet.net

[Guest guest]

I would suggest getting a Chinese language tutor once a week as I did

for three years, and spend 20 minutes a day studying, plus the Paradigm

texts I mentioned earlier, plus good Chinese-English dictionaries.

The first book I started with was " Grasping the Wind " , which explained

the characters used to name acupuncture points.

 

 

On Thursday, November 28, 2002, at 09:41 AM, kampo36 wrote:

 

> And then

> support -- for example, Z'ev, who is clearly extremely busy with his

> teaching, practice, family and religious obligations, what concrete

> steps would you give to someone who is looking to fit study time into

> their lives?

[Guest guest]

>

> > Knowing the meaning of the Chinese medical

> > terms that serve as the foundations of

> > Chinese medical theory and practice is

> > a good thing. It is a necessary thing.

> > It supports the development of strong,

> > clinical understanding and skill.

>

> I think nobody disputes this... again, what is your vision of the

> outcome? If it is that every CM practitioner can recognize 100

> characters and know the basic Wiseman dictionary definition, then

> this is an attainable goal;

 

MORE T-DAY RANTS…

 

Ken, or others,

 

(I think this might have been asked before) but... What do you feel

is the difference between knowing, lets say, 500 characters (main TCM

med-terms) and the Wiseman definition, vs. -- knowing those exact

same terms in pinyin and knowing the wiseman definition. Are you

making a distinction here? If so, what is the clinical significance

of this? (asked before) - but more importantly how does (knowing the

character) enable one to communicate better or worse to others in

this field.? IMO, I don't think the understanding of terms is aided

very much by knowing Chinese! [unless there is an obscure topic, and

not much is translated, therefore reading Chinese material, gives one

access] There has been times that I or others have had a better

understanding of a concept or term than a native Chinese speaker,

only because of careful reading of the dictionary or supplementary

material. Reading a dictionary has nothing to do with knowing

Chinese. Furthermore, most of the time, anyone can look up a term

(or even a Chinese character after a few hours of study), and find

enough information in the dict or other sources to get a grip, use it

effectively in the clinic, and communicate it with an English or

Chinese speaker.

BUT, I see a distinction, I think learning Chinese is all about

learning to read, not recite terms, and this entails GRAMMAR, and

this combine with recognizing characters takes years (to be good).

The point of instilling a program in the current institutions is NOT

to graduate people who are at a professional translation level. It

would be to give people a basis to further there studies in the

future (if they so desire). Therefore I disagree and agree with

Alon's stance that 4000 hours isn't enough (something like that). Yes

it is not enough to enable one to read proficiently or translate

accurately, but this is not the point.

At SIOM, students are able to translate basic semi-classical material

(Maybe modern, I am not sure) before graduation. This is huge, if a

student while attending a 4 year-undergraduate can acquire the basic

skills to get to this level, while still getting the fundamentals of

TCM, then that is great. Remember after a 4 year program one is only

getting a basic understanding of TCM anyway, expected to really learn

after school (note our SHL discussions of the past)- BTW, I have also

only heard good things, in regard to clinical ability of Students

graduating from SIOM. SO people then have a choice after graduation.

Continue translating, reading and learning Chinese or not. But at

least they have a foundation.

 

Finally, I have been studying Chinese for some time now. But because

one uses a dictionary (Wiseman) to reference a term, look up a

character -- someone who does not know Chinese, using the same

resources, can get the same understanding. I find this true though

only in a mainstream setting -- meaning current mainstream TCM

thought processes. For example, reading case studies, just from 200

years ago one can see standard terms which we know today to represent

a certain set of ideas (from a Wiseman dictionary perspective) used

in slightly different ways giving the term an expanded meaning or

different meaning in that setting. This is even more true for later

works. This shows a limitation of a standardized dictionary, or at

least our current dictionaries. How this translates into clinical

relevance at this point is somewhat unclear to me. The only

relevance would be in interpreting a passage (classical or semi

classical) more or less correctly. And this gets into the realm of

purely translation arena, and have little to do with the average TCM

practitioner. At this point if I translate something, which will

probably have errors, or I read another's translation, probably from

someone more experienced, the same information is obtained. Isn't

this the WHOLE point of translation and a standardized terminology?

So if one cannot read some-what efficiently (accessing more

material) - than I too am searching for benefits to learning

Chinese. I too would like to see more examples of how understanding

a character better translates to better TCM practitioner. I see it

only making one a better reader or translator.

 

Finally (2), Usually people who study Chinese, as pointed out by Todd

(?) previously, usually study TCM overall more. This can give a

false impression that they are acquiring greater knowledge through

studying Chinese. I highly doubt that anyone that is not spending a

immense amount of time reading/translating is getting any greater

understanding than another purely from the Chinese language aspect.

Dabbling in Chinese does not, IMO, make one elite or better than

other practitioners that do not partake. For our profession someone

needs to get more information. That is it, if one chooses this path,

then great. And we need this, therefore it should be in schools.

Everyone does not need to excel in such a class. This is not what

makes a good practitioner, but only CAN possibly enhance one's

understanding.

 

 

 

if it is to know Chinese well enough to

> translate complicated texts from various periods in CM history,

this

> is far less likely.

 

1) I assume we can all agree that being able to translate is out-of-

reach for the majority (99%) of practitioners.

 

So I would like to here Ken and others personal vision / goals for

our education system. If a language program is instilled - At what

proficiency should a student exiting a program (both grad and PHD) be

at and what is the purpose ??

 

-

[Guest guest]

Ken -

 

I appreciate your sense of humor, however, your interpretation of my expression does not capture my intent. It is not about money. It is about professional endeavor.

 

Will

 

Will, I have to thank you for the

good laugh I got from your suggestion

that money motivates my concern about

illiteracy.

[Guest guest]

All,

 

I'll try and respond to the various questions,

objections, etc. that have been raised while

the turkeys were all being consumed.

 

Those who've been on the list for a while

will recall that I am engaged in a grass

roots movement with respect to learning

Chinese medical language. I am not primarily

interested in reforming the schools. If

I comment on the role the schools have

played in this subject, it is to communicate

to the individuals on this list some fact

or idea and not to presume to be telling

schools how to conduct their work.

 

Nor do I presume to tell people how

to live their lives, how to think their

thoughts, or what is valuable and important

to them.

 

With respect to quantifying the study of

Chinese medical language, i.e., the how

much is enough question, I have addressed

this one many times. Z'ev has also

clearly addressed the issue.

 

Enough is to begin. If you begin you

will discover whether or not it matters

to you personally. If it does, you will

continue. If it doesn't, you won't.

 

In San Diego a friend pointed out

to me that there are many paths to

knowledge. Of course all I could

say to her was, " You're absolutely

right. "

 

There are, and I have never once

suggested otherwise. Much of what I

have learned about Chinese medicine

was taught to me without a single

word being spoken, written, or

even thought.

 

I remain vigilant about the language

and literature issue because it is

often hard to see things that aren't

there. And the contempoary trend in

Chinese medical education has been to

omit and/or neglect the language and

literature of the subject.

 

So there are lots of folks in the

profession who still don't really have

any meaningful idea of what is available

in the Chinese language and literary

archives of the subject.

 

 

It seems to me that despite all the

bellyaching, there is now broad concensus

on the fact that knowing the meanings of

Chinese medical terms benefits the

understanding of medical theory and

practice.

 

As is clear from the ongoing discussions,

there are many differing opinions on

what constitutes an adequate approach

to " knowing the meanings of Chinese

medical terms. "

 

All I can report is based on my own

experience. Like I am not a stellar

student. I am slow and require endless

review of material before it begins to

sink in.

 

I follow Musashi's principle that

the way is in training.

 

In the near future, more materials will

be available to help those who want

to explore further. And as anyone

who has ever contacted me directly

to ask for help on this knows, I

am always happy to do whatever I can

to help sincere students.

 

Will, I have to thank you for the

good laugh I got from your suggestion

that money motivates my concern about

illiteracy. When I realize how little

money I've earned from working on this

topic, I laugh so hard I cry.

 

But it is good to know that you are vigilant

of people's responsibility to caveat

emptor.

 

If you walk into the library there at

Emperors you'll find all those Korean

books that comment on Chinese medical

texts. There, Is submit, you have evidence

of the efficacy of language study with

respect to the reception of Chinese

medical traditions.

 

Thanks to all who offer their ideas

on this topic. I continue to find it

fascinating.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Usually people who study Chinese, as pointed out by Todd (?) previously, usually study TCM overall more. This can give a false impression that they are acquiring greater knowledge through studying Chinese.

>>>I agree it just shows that they are serious students

Alon

[Guest guest]

Hi!

It has been interesting to observe all of the discussion about learning

Chinese.

 

As a native Chinese speaker, I learned Chinese medicine through 5

element acupuncture school, which didn't require to learn Medical

Chinese.

Since I am able to read the Chinese language, I rely heavily on Chinese

textbook to validate what I learn in school. I realized that I learned

more through reading the Chinese text. I don't rely on translation to

English only.

In fact, I found some of the Chinese text is not easy to understand,

such as classics. I have to rely on Morden Chinese translation to the

classics. English text is helpful for beginner, but I still rely on

Chinese text to get the essence of the theory.

 

Again, I do believe that able to read Chinese will give you a quick

access of journals and books about Chinese medicine. However, I don't

believe that 30 hours of Chinese class can teach you much, and able to

translate Chinese. However, if you can read the basic acupuncture

points and herbs, it will be helpful to verify and validate the

translation. There are so much information out there in Chinese which

hasn't been translated, such as some formula I was able to read but

cannot find in English translation text books.

 

I have been practice nursing for 7 years and has been a nurse

practitioner for past 7 years. It's essential for me to know both

Chinese and English, because I practice Western and Chinese medicine

daily. I am a beginner of Chinese medicine practitioner (since 2000),

and learn a great deal from my American teachers who cannot speak or

read Chinese medicine text. I have advantage of reading the Chinese

text and able to discuss with my teachers to have in-depth learning.

However, I believe that it would be most helpful to learn Chinese to

have in-depth understanding about Chinese medicine, but it is not

guarantee to be a good clinician. You can be a good scholar, but not a

good clinician.

 

Ta-Ya Lee

MSN, MAc, CRNP, L.Ac.

Johns Hopkins Community Physician

Primary Care Provider and Licensed Acupuncturist

 

 

>>> alonmarcus 11/28/02 02:03PM >>>

 

How can it possibly be that the same exact definition is more valid

when

referenced to a Chinese character than to a standard translation term.

Terms

signify something.

>>My question exactly and still waiting for example

Alon

[Guest guest]

Hello Ta-Ya,

I would love to talk with you off-list about combining TCM and NP -- I am in the process of applying to NP direct entry programs, including Johns Hopkins. Please send me your e-mail address and/or your phone number. My email address is chemenway

 

thanks!

 

Catherine Hemenway, L.Ac.Mirasol: Arizona Center forEating Disorder Recoverywww.mirasol.net

 

-

Ta-Ya Lee

Friday, November 29, 2002 8:16 AM

Re: Re: language

Hi!It has been interesting to observe all of the discussion about learningChinese.As a native Chinese speaker, I learned Chinese medicine through 5element acupuncture school, which didn't require to learn MedicalChinese.Since I am able to read the Chinese language, I rely heavily on Chinesetextbook to validate what I learn in school. I realized that I learnedmore through reading the Chinese text. I don't rely on translation toEnglish only.In fact, I found some of the Chinese text is not easy to understand,such as classics. I have to rely on Morden Chinese translation to theclassics. English text is helpful for beginner, but I still rely onChinese text to get the essence of the theory.Again, I do believe that able to read Chinese will give you a quickaccess of journals and books about Chinese medicine. However, I don'tbelieve that 30 hours of Chinese class can teach you much, and able totranslate Chinese. However, if you can read the basic acupuncturepoints and herbs, it will be helpful to verify and validate thetranslation. There are so much information out there in Chinese whichhasn't been translated, such as some formula I was able to read butcannot find in English translation text books.I have been practice nursing for 7 years and has been a nursepractitioner for past 7 years. It's essential for me to know bothChinese and English, because I practice Western and Chinese medicinedaily. I am a beginner of Chinese medicine practitioner (since 2000),and learn a great deal from my American teachers who cannot speak orread Chinese medicine text. I have advantage of reading the Chinesetext and able to discuss with my teachers to have in-depth learning. However, I believe that it would be most helpful to learn Chinese tohave in-depth understanding about Chinese medicine, but it is notguarantee to be a good clinician. You can be a good scholar, but not agood clinician.Ta-Ya LeeMSN, MAc, CRNP, L.Ac.Johns Hopkins Community PhysicianPrimary Care Provider and Licensed Acupuncturist>>> alonmarcus 11/28/02 02:03PM >>>How can it possibly be that the same exact definition is more validwhen referenced to a Chinese character than to a standard translation term. Terms signify something. >>My question exactly and still waiting for exampleAlonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Will, I have to thank you for the

good laugh I got from your suggestion

that money motivates my concern about

illiteracy.

 

 

Ken -

 

I hope you had a good holliday. I have thought about this comment for a while now and choose to further clarify.

Ernestly, your arguments for language would hold more weight if you were a practitioner who had completed a program, gained licensure in this country and maintained a livelihood on that basis. The same is true for anyone else whose livelihood is extracted from means other than the practice of OM. Let's do needs analysis with those who are in the profession 100%. These are the people we should be asking about language requirements. If we remove the people who have anything other than practice as the sustaenance, we may have a very different picture. This was certainly the tone at the accreditation commission doctoral task force public hearings.

Your friend,

 

Will Morris

[Guest guest]

I have a few simple questions, Will.

 

1) How can a professional population (Western trained non-Chinese

native language speaking) who, the vast majority of, have not been

exposed to Chinese language, decide if Chinese language is important in

their training? (At PCOM, a majority of students want exposure to

Chinese language studies, as it turns out).

 

2) Why define our profession as only containing licensed

acupuncturists? Does this mean we don't include writers, translators,

administrators or others that are important to our field?

 

3) Why avoid the common sense wisdom of other professions, i.e. to have

as much access to materials of a profession as possible (or, as I see

it, why invest in willful ignorance of a vast body of material)?

 

Ken is a health professional who has trained and practiced in qi gong

and tui na with great teachers. What exclusion could you rationalize

to keep him out of the dialogue in our profession? There are other

very important individuals in our field who have not trained in this

country, couldn't gain a license, and yet have a much broader base of

knowledge than your average licensed acupuncturist.

 

I don't think your rationalization is correct or fair.

 

 

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 08:07 AM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> Ken -

>

> I hope you had a good holliday. I have thought about this comment for

> a while now and choose to further clarify.

>

> Ernestly, your arguments for language would hold more weight if you

> were a practitioner who had completed a program, gained licensure in

> this country and maintained a livelihood on that basis. The same is

> true for anyone else whose livelihood is extracted from means other

> than the practice of OM. Let's do needs analysis with those who are in

> the profession 100%. These are the people we should be asking about

> language requirements. If we remove the people who have anything other

> than practice as the sustaenance, we may have a very different

> picture. This was certainly the tone at the accreditation commission

> doctoral task force public hearings.

>

> Your friend,

>

> Will Morris

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

(At PCOM, a majority of students want exposure to

> Chinese language studies, as it turns out).

 

that's a little misleading. PCOM has offered classes in chinese every

semester since I got to town. for the last three, I have attempted to take the

classes, but they are always cancelled due to lack of enrollment. Master's

students may want to learn chinese, but apparently not if it means going to

additional classes and studying for them. My hunch would be that if other

things were eliminated, many students would take on this burden, but not in

ADDITION to everything else. And I don't blame them; the existing program is

barely manageable as it is.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <@i...> wrote:

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> (At PCOM, a majority of students want exposure to

> > Chinese language studies, as it turns out).

> that's a little misleading. PCOM has offered classes in chinese

every semester since I got to town. for the last three, I have

attempted to take the classes, but they are always cancelled due to

lack of enrollment. Master's students may want to learn chinese, but

apparently not if it means going to additional classes and studying

for them. My hunch would be that if other things were eliminated,

many students would take on this burden, but not in ADDITION to

everything else. And I don't blame them; the existing program is

barely manageable as it is.

 

:

 

You remarks also hold true for CSTCM, where I teach. When classes

were offered and attendance was voluntary, not enough students

enrolled to make the class worth continuing.

 

Anything not tested on the NCCAOM exam would be difficult to justify

in an undergraduate curriculum. For undergraduate study, there

should be a greater priority for clinical material---including

literature already in translation and pulse diagnosis.

 

This, of course, doesn't exclude knowing the meaning and development

of essential terms. In fact, it requires them.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Remember,

This was an elective course. Not only is there the time issue,

which you point out, but that students don't see it as essential or as

high quality if it is just an 'elective'. Also, the class that was

originally offered used a poor quality textbook of dubious value, and

the instructor had no knowledge of the Wiseman or any other useful

medical Chinese-English dictionary.

 

 

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 11:51 AM, wrote:

 

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> (At PCOM, a majority of students want exposure to

>> Chinese language studies, as it turns out).

>

> that's a little misleading. PCOM has offered classes in chinese every

> semester since I got to town. for the last three, I have attempted to

> take the

> classes, but they are always cancelled due to lack of enrollment.

> Master's

> students may want to learn chinese, but apparently not if it means

> going to

> additional classes and studying for them. My hunch would be that if

> other

> things were eliminated, many students would take on this burden, but

> not in

> ADDITION to everything else. And I don't blame them; the existing

> program is

> barely manageable as it is.

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev:

 

Why do people continually refer to Ken as a "health care professional"? What is his "profession" and how did he get this professional training?

 

Your school even listed him as L.Ac. on your advertising brochure, until I called both you and Ken on this misrepresentation.

 

This is not meant to disrespect Ken and his knowledge -- I wouldn't have hired him to teach a course at Yo San if I didn't respect him, and he would be the first to admit he is not a licensed professional -- let's just have some professional and academic accuracy here.

 

If I'm wrong or out of line, I'll admit it.

 

Julie Chambers

 

[Guest guest]

This is not meant to disrespect Ken and his knowledge -- I wouldn't have hired him to teach a course at Yo San if I didn't respect him, and he would be the first to admit he is not a licensed professional -- let's just have some professional and academic accuracy here.

>>>Does it really matter? I do not think so. His ideas are based on his experience which include many years of exposure to CM. This is a red herring

Alon

[Guest guest]

As I pointed out to you in an earlier, private post, the L. Ac. was a

mistake on the part of the advertising office, and once printed,

couldn't be removed.

 

You'll have to ask Ken for the details on his professional status.

 

 

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:06 PM, Julie Chambers wrote:

 

> Dear Z'ev:

>  

> Why do people continually refer to Ken as a " health care

> professional " ? What is his " profession " and how did he get this

> professional training?

>  

> Your school even listed him as L.Ac. on your advertising brochure,

> until I called both you and Ken on this misrepresentation.

>  

> This is not meant to disrespect Ken and his knowledge -- I wouldn't

> have hired him to teach a course at Yo San if I didn't respect him,

> and he would be the first to admit he is not a licensed professional

> -- let's just have some professional and academic accuracy here.

>  

> If I'm wrong or out of line, I'll admit it.

>  

> Julie Chambers

>  

>

>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alon -

 

I agree with you on this. Let's get an accurate assessment of curent conditions

and determine what to do next. Language skills are sorely needed by this

profession.

 

Will

 

> I agree with you to the extent that practitioners usually know better what

they are lacking. But we do need people with good language skills to bring to us

oriental literature. Why are we talking only about Chinese. To again the

question is only what is appropriate in medical school in the time

> allowed.

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

Fair enough...but you referred to him as a health professional.

 

Julie