Language learning

[Guest guest]

All,

 

I'm the odd man out in my group. I'm the fellow whose freshman French

teacher awarded the " worst accent ever " prize and who left a small horde of

Japanese with facial pains from trying not to wince when I tried to say

" hello " . My colleagues seem to acquire languages as fast as I acquire bad

habits. They " learn French for fun " and go to Japan to learn Japanese

because they are " tired of waiting for answers about Japanese ideas. " So, I

am right there with all who would avoid learning any language, any time.

But, when I hear Bob Flaws talk about how knowing Chinese works in his

practice, or hear Ken Rose talk about taiji bone docs in Chengdu, what

impresses me is the confidence that comes from being independently able to

get information when and how they want it. I earn my living on computers

and would go insane, then bankrupt, if I could not access the technical

literature on my own. Access to data and information is a big deal for me.

 

>From that perspective, I think that there will always be CM practitioners

who want learn Chinese. I talk to more of them than most and have never

heard anyone say the effort wasn't worthwhile, regardless of whether like

Z'ev they are inspired by the classics, or like Bob by the contemporary

literature. I'm a commercial guy and I would not bet ten cents that there is

any better way to get a high volume of quality information about the

delivery and practice of TCM than to access the experience stored in the

Chinese language and I think I know enough about the market to say that it

will be a while yet before there is a really broad selection of translated

materials. The idea that we're going to generate an equivalent experience

soon enough to make the best decisions - clinical or social - is hard to sell to

someone like myself who has read nearly thirty years of Western

pronouncements on Chinese medicine, a huge hunk of which have proven

flat-out wrong (my own included).

 

Practically, if the schools can't get a full class for Chinese language, it is

not

going to happen in the schools and arguing it as a curriculum issue is just

repeating ourselves. So, what I suggest rather than using CHA to argue

about language, is to use it to find out how many people would like to study

Chinese and how much time and money they think they can dedicate to the

effort. I'm sure there are school people listening and if we put some facts to

the issue, maybe someone will have a workable plan.

 

If this is too non-clinical for CHA, I'd be happy to take it somewhere else,

but arguing about it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

 

Bob

 

bob Paradigm Publications

www.paradigm-pubs.com 44 Linden Street

Robert L. Felt Brookline MA 02445

617-738-4664

 

 

---

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[Guest guest]

Bob I agree with you totally.

 

I myself am a student learning TCM and will be

completing my course in a few months. However, what I

lack is the Chinese language. Granted, I fully

believe in my heart that I would make a good TCM

Practitioner and my marks back me up. However, I am

research oriented and it annoys me to no end when I

can't locate the information I want in books or when

books contradict each other. Or if I can't get what I

want in a herbal shop because they don't understand

me.

 

After I finish my program and get my license to

practice, I am going to learn chinese (and this is

something I promised myself in year one). I am not

learning it now because it is too much a load for me

to carry and to do a good job.

 

At any rate, what I am trying to say is. Learning

Chinese should be an option. If you live in a place

where you are not dealing with the Chinese community

and you have no interest in dealing directly with

Chinese TCM books, you are happy with translated

copies ... why go there. You may not the best

clinical TCM Practitioner, but you learned to be a

good TCM Practitioner from excellent practitioners and

teachers who do have the knowledge and they are giving

their knowledge to you.

 

Schools in general should have an extra program

available to the students who want to take the extra

step ... Not make it manditory.

 

Maria Dias

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

, " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...>

wrote:

I'm sure there are school people listening and if we put some facts to

> the issue, maybe someone will have a workable plan.

>

> If this is too non-clinical for CHA, I'd be happy to take it somewhere else,

> but arguing about it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

 

Discuss it here. You are right.

 

[Guest guest]

, " <@i...> " <

@i...> wrote:

> , " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...>

> wrote:

> I'm sure there are school people listening and if we put some facts to

 

 

I have an idea I have said before. allow students to opt out of tai ji, qi gong

and/or tui na and do medical chinese intead. In the PRC, internal med

specialists do not have to learn these subjects. I am not saying they are

without value. I like them both quite a bit. However they are not necessary to

practice internal medicine, yet they are required at many schools. The main

problem is that there is literally NO time for students to do anything more than

they already do. And learning chinese would not speed up this process. this

is a simple change that basically offers a slightly more academic, scholarly

track as an alternative to the current one at many schools, which still retains

strong influences from bodywork professions.

 

there is a good argument to be made that we need as many translators as we

need qi gong masters in the field. And that is really the only area I can

identify

that can be sacrificed without severely undermining internal medicine studies

(except perhaps acupuncture - ha-ha). Arguably, various orthopedic and

related classes are also not necessary for internal medicine specialists.

PCOM, like many schools has somewhere from 4-8 or more required classes

along these lines.

 

The only alternative would be to increase hours. However PCOM already has

3200 hours, 200 more than the state mandated 3000. Other schools have as

little as 2400 in CA and as low as 1900 in some other places. In CA, all

schools will have to now have 3000. With the NCCAOM fighting vigorously to

lower the hours in CA and replace our exam with theirs, it is unlikely these

hours will ever increase at the master's level. In fact, a compromise has

already been reached between the schools, the board and CSOMA to define

how these hours will actually be broken down.

 

The doctoral level is set at 4000 hours by ACAOM. PCOM will end up at 4400

(3200 masters plus 1200 doc and include medical chinese). Other programs

will not have any med chinese at any level. Someday if CSOMA has their

way, the entry level for CA practice wil be a 4000 hour doctorate. PCOM has

no objections to this. At this time, the medical chinese could be moved

forward in the total curriculum. but if current trends prevail, most schools

will

not require medical chinese at any level. While this was a consensus arrived

at by practitioners who made public comment on the doctoral program, one

has to suspect strong motivation to minimize the difficulty of attaining the

degree. Those who made comment may be guilty of just insuring themselves

an easy path to a coveted title. and the schools certainly want to attract the

largest number of students. a hurdle like chinese would inhibit interest, it is

presumed.

 

I think the need to study chinese is indisputable. We need to cultivate as

many translators as possible and we all need to be conversant in the

terminology to some degree. I think some introduction to medical chinese

should be required at the masters. I do not think proficiency is necessary to

practice, though clearly advantageous. the introduction should be sufficient to

learn all basic terminology and the skills necessary to do translation, should

one pursue that (in my own defense, I have actually done this: studied

terminology and pin yin, learned radicals, phonetics, basic grammar, stroke

order, writing characters, using a dictionary; I don't remember any of it and I

am not good at it; my time is better spent elsewhere, but it was worthwhile to

go through this process). I took 6 massage classes and I never pursued that.

I would have rather taken 6 chinese classes. But I didn't know any better at

the time and I have no incentive anymore with so much else on my plate. But

someone decided we should all take massage and qi gong since some of us

would use it a lot in practice. the same logic applies to chinese. at least

give

an alternate track

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Bob Felt,

 

 

Very interesting,

 

I believe that a language course via the medium computers and internet is very feasible.

 

But unfortunately have neither of the skills to undertake such an revolutionary project. (I believe it would concretise the transmission of Chinese medicine drastically)

 

As for cost?

 

I have regrettably little grasp of marketing (both individual and general promotion), but it could maybe be structured in a modular way:

 

Introduction to terms and language in general (medically orientated), including basic stroke order...

 

modern medical Chinese...

 

Classical medical Chinese, historical overviews change and continue and various trends... (in short more philologically orientated.

 

specify classes for interactive translations...

 

Ina way is something that could unified the schools and hence the profession, and its socio-political identity, because schools-Institutes-universities could be common sponsors of such a project...

 

Then with time Korean Vietnamese and Japanese and Oriental medicine might develop...

 

 

Marco Bergh

 

 

-

Robert L. Felt

Friday, December 06, 2002 2:07 PM

Language learning

All,I'm the odd man out in my group. I'm the fellow whose freshman French teacher awarded the "worst accent ever" prize and who left a small horde of Japanese with facial pains from trying not to wince when I tried to say "hello". My colleagues seem to acquire languages as fast as I acquire bad habits. They "learn French for fun" and go to Japan to learn Japanese because they are "tired of waiting for answers about Japanese ideas." So, I am right there with all who would avoid learning any language, any time. But, when I hear Bob Flaws talk about how knowing Chinese works in his practice, or hear Ken Rose talk about taiji bone docs in Chengdu, what impresses me is the confidence that comes from being independently able to get information when and how they want it. I earn my living on computers and would go insane, then bankrupt, if I could not access the technical literature on my own. Access to data and information is a big deal for me.>From that perspective, I think that there will always be CM practitioners who want learn Chinese. I talk to more of them than most and have never heard anyone say the effort wasn't worthwhile, regardless of whether like Z'ev they are inspired by the classics, or like Bob by the contemporary literature. I'm a commercial guy and I would not bet ten cents that there is any better way to get a high volume of quality information about the delivery and practice of TCM than to access the experience stored in the Chinese language and I think I know enough about the market to say that it will be a while yet before there is a really broad selection of translated materials. The idea that we're going to generate an equivalent experience soon enough to make the best decisions - clinical or social - is hard to sell to someone like myself who has read nearly thirty years of Western pronouncements on Chinese medicine, a huge hunk of which have proven flat-out wrong (my own included).Practically, if the schools can't get a full class for Chinese language, it is not going to happen in the schools and arguing it as a curriculum issue is just repeating ourselves. So, what I suggest rather than using CHA to argue about language, is to use it to find out how many people would like to study Chinese and how much time and money they think they can dedicate to the effort. I'm sure there are school people listening and if we put some facts to the issue, maybe someone will have a workable plan.If this is too non-clinical for CHA, I'd be happy to take it somewhere else, but arguing about it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.Bob bob Paradigm Publicationswww.paradigm-pubs.com 44 Linden StreetRobert L. Felt Brookline MA 02445617-738-4664---[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Then with time Korean Vietnamese and Japanese and Oriental medicine might develop...

 

I MEAN WITH REGARD TO LANGUAGE AND ORIENTIAL MEDICINE

 

Marco

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Strictly speaking I mean with regard to the English language+ and East Asian medicine.

 

Now, is any one aware of similar great efforts by N. Wiseman, Ken Ross and others... with regard to the language question but in the Spanish language?

 

Does any one know of conscientiously translations of Chinese medicine - Oriental medicine into Spanish?

 

Are the any plans say of Paradigm and bluepoopy, Eastland to translate any if not all:-) of their books into Spanish?

 

What would constitute good team of translators into the Spanish language. Ideally directly from Asian languages Chinese... into Spanish but also some conscientiously made translations from Asia into English?

 

Any one know of already published work?

 

 

marco

 

-

Marco

Saturday, December 07, 2002 2:43 AM

Re: Language learning

 

 

Then with time Korean Vietnamese and Japanese and Oriental medicine might develop...

 

I MEAN WITH REGARD TO LANGUAGE AND ORIENTIAL MEDICINE

 

Marco

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> I believe that a language course via the medium computers and internet is

very feasible.

 

It would be but the NCCAOM only gives credit for the equivalent of classroom

hours, not the equivalent of " homework " . Much postgrad chinese study would

be more like homework than interactive classroom. I was able to get online

classes approved by the NCCAOM only because those classes centered on

an emailbased discussion, like CHA, but limited to specific reading topics.

You can get credit for time spent directly interacting with the instructor and

classmates (even via email); but you get no credit for doing readings or

homework of any kind. In order to get 10 credits of chinese CEU's via the

internet, one would have to spend 10 hours " discussing " the subject on top of

whatever else one had to do on their own for no credit.

 

While this is no different than a real class where you should spend twice as

much time outside of class preparing as you do in class discussing, it is quite

different than typical CEU's. Typical CEU's, ironically, allow one to get ten

credits for just sitting in a class for ten hours doing nothing, without any way

of

verifying if you actually learned anything. Really quite a joke, if you ask me.

It

would be a lot more educational to spend that ten hours doing problem

solving that could be documented. the problem is that one might cheat and

plagiarize the work, but there are technical solutions to this. In some places,

they already do secure internet voting. I think we can manage secure CEU's.

 

However, there is another problem with this scenario. Assume it will be the

CEU's that motivate students, because just as in the master's program, very

few will study this as an elective. So how much can you learn in 10 hours.

Z'ev said he puts in 20 minutes a day. that's 10 hours per month. So it will

really take over a 100 hours per year. If people want to do it, it can easily

be

done, but I still doubt we will have many takers with no carrot or stick. Has

anybody read the cutting edge work on adult learning theory. It turns out after

all these years that the only thing that works reliably is reward and

punishment. for instance, I have been shocked how much better on the

average my herbs students do the more I hold their feet to the fire. When I

used to run a class designed for the self motivated, I had a much higher fail

and attrition rate. There is no lack of opportunity to learn chinese. Between

wenlin software, books and/or tapes by flaws, unschuld and wiseman, classes

at most colleges, potential tutors available at most TCM schools. But there is

no existing structure to either reward or punish people for their participation

or

lack thereof.

 

[Guest guest]

, " <@i...> "

<@i...> wrote:

>

> But there is

> no existing structure to either reward or punish people for their

participation or

> lack thereof.

>

 

well, there's being scolded by ken... ;o)

[Guest guest]

, " <@i...> "

<@i...> wrote:

>

> there is a good argument to be made that we need as many

translators as we

> need qi gong masters in the field. And that is really the only

area I can identify

> that can be sacrificed without severely undermining internal

medicine studies

> (except perhaps acupuncture - ha-ha).

 

really, my experience teaching TCM acupx is that the acupx portion of

the OM program could likely be trimmed, especially if it is just Zang-

Fu based; most of the point selection is pretty much rote S36/SP6

LI4/LR3 stuff. Students can get pretty bored with that while at the

same time they may be sweating cramming 300 herbs into 15 or 20 weeks.

 

or switch the acupx portion over to Japanese Meridian Therapy, only 4

patterns and it works better anyway ;o)

 

robert hayden

http://jabinet.net

[Guest guest]

, " <@i...> "

<@i...> wrote:

 

>

> I have an idea I have said before. allow students to opt out of

tai ji, qi gong

> and/or tui na and do medical chinese intead. In the PRC, internal

med

> specialists do not have to learn these subjects. I am not saying

they are

> without value. I like them both quite a bit. However they are not

necessary to

> practice internal medicine, yet they are required at many schools

 

I know this is heresy, but I never really got why taiji is supposed

to be so crucial to one's success as a therapist (obviously I never

got very far in taiji). If a traditional art is to be studied it

makes much more sense to me if there was a course in calligraphy,

which is applicable to both language learning and meditation as well

as the dexterity and sensitivity one needs for good needling.

 

dr Shudo is an expert calligrapher, for example, and his point

location and needling skills are phenomenal.

 

robert hayden

http://jabinet.net

[Guest guest]

Robert,

 

> I know this is heresy, but I never really got why taiji is

supposed

> to be so crucial to one's success as a therapist (obviously I

never

> got very far in taiji). If a traditional art is to be studied it

> makes much more sense to me if there was a course in calligraphy,

> which is applicable to both language learning and meditation as

well

> as the dexterity and sensitivity one needs for good needling.

 

Oh well. A little heresy never hurt anybody.

 

I had a very interesting conversation recently

with John Holland about the possible role of

calligraphy in the development of human

consciousness. Since consciousness existed

before calligraphy came into being, " development "

here refers to ongoing development rather

than initial development and includes the

concepts of refinement and improvement.

 

We were sitting in the back of a cab watching

the runners in the Beijing marathon run by.

So we had some time on our hands as we were

getting no closer to the restauarant where

the lunch reservation was.

 

And what else is there to talk about in a

cab than the impact of calligrphy on consciousness?

 

Here are the salient facts that emerged, which you might

find of interest and which I believe support

your suggestion.

 

A substantial proportion of the human cortex

is associated with the thumb and forefinger.

The whole nervous system is more or less

obsessed with this part of the body. Holland

mentioned the fact that developemental and

evolutionary biologists have come to believe

that the ability to grasp, aim, and throw

things was a mutation that arose from the

earlier appearance of an opposing thumb

in early pre-humans. The capacity for language

seems to be neurologically linked to the

same nexus.

 

It strikes me, (and here I have to say that

this is merely something I talked about with

Holland, not Holland's idea nor does it have

his endorsement...but I've been thinking about

this for a while now and so when I saw your

post I thought I'd take the opportunity to

write it down) that the use of the same

part of the hand, which picks up and throws

stones and sticks, to grasp and manipulate

a calligraphy brush suggests that something

further may be taking place with respect to

human consciousness.

 

Anyone who has ever handled one of these brushes

knows that it takes an extreme degree of

control in order to have the tip of the brush

respond actively to the will so that what emerges

from the tip is a true expression of what resides

in the will. It's a great example of the harmony

of freedom and restraint in Chinese

culture and thought. The free flowing of the

brush and therefore the appearance of the

characters on the page only results from

the imposition of extreme restraint in

the cultivation of the technique. We talk about

this phenomenon in chapter 3 of A Brief History

of Qi. In Chinese terms, of course, we are talking

about the cultivation of qi4.

 

I've studied tai4ji2 for more than thirty

years, and I believe that it is definitely

not for everyone. But calligraphy should

be included in people's basic

training, as it does so much to develop

the mind and the hand-eye coordination that

is so critical for effective acupuncture.

In this respect it is no doubt more relevant

to acupuncture than to Chinese medicine.

But as per my speculation above, it is

an intriguing notion that body-brain

feedback loops developed by writing

with a brush may have some impact on

one's overall mentation.

 

Steve Birch said something at a conference

I was at recently that pertains. He said

that with the right technique he could get

a result on a patient needling any place

at all on the body.

 

This is the result of well trained hands,

and nothing trains the hands quite like

calligraphy. On an historical note, all

of the hands that wrote the Chinese medical

classics did so while wielding these brushes.

 

That leads me to the post about the classics.

 

Ken

>

> dr Shudo is an expert calligrapher, for example, and his point

> location and needling skills are phenomenal.

>

> robert hayden

> http://jabinet.net